Insight G1 vs G2
 

I drive a lot for work. If my company had any sense, they'd get me a company car. I used to drive my own car and laughed all the way to the bank collecting 56 cents/mile. My boss wasn't laughing so much if I had a 400 mile day, since it makes $$$ sense to rent for such occasions. But that is a PITA to do last second as I have to move tools/parts to the rental. Also, unless I drive a half hour to the airport, I am limited to picking up between 9AM-6PM.

Eventually, he agreed to just let me rent a car by the month. Some months, this works out for the company, some months, it doesn't. As territories/equipment change, it seems that I may be doing less driving. And I suspect that at some point, the boss man is going to say go back to driving your own car.

So, 2 of the leading candidates are the Insights. Here are the pros/cons as I see them.

G1 pros-

1.High coolness factor. It looks like a freaking spaceship.
2. MT. Fun to drive, and the already insane mpg numbers can be bumped with some hypermiling
3. This is a rare, seriously cool car. I suspect that it is going to become collectible and values will rise. Hopefully, this rise in value starts the day after I buy one.

G1 cons-

1. possible IMA trouble. The plus side to this is it seems superior aftermarket Li Ion packs will become affordable some day.
2. Limited cargo capacity. I occasionally have to drag around a bulky 200 lb xray generator. I think it will fit without having to leave the hatch propped open, but it will be a PITA.

G2 Pros-

1. Newer
2. IMA system seems to be bulletproof, comapared to the G1, anyhoo.
3. Plenty of room, can actually put more than 2 people in it if need be.
4. An insane value, compared to its competition, the Prius.

G2 Cons

1.BORING!!!!!!!!
2. Hell will freeze before it becomes collectible.
3. Very good mileage, but not quite G1 good.

I have talked to a guy with a G1. Its a 2000, MT, 5 speed. Comes with grid charger. 145K Looking to get 2K, which seems very reasonable to me.

There is a 2010 EX 56K miles. Asking 5800. But it has a rebuilt title. Seller says it was a light hit, which I assume means no structural/mechnical issues. This does void any Honda battery warranty.

So, what to do?

My sensible practical side says take a chance on that rebuilt title and go with the newer, lower mileage car.

My other side that still thinks like a 13 year old boy says go G1 baby!!!! Get the spaceship with its 5 speed and pimp ass wheel skirts.

Any recommendations welcomed.

I've never driven a gen 2 Insight. I do own an 1st gen Insight and I love it... and hate it from time to time. Its a 2000 which means its 17 years old. While it only has ~135k on it, its still a 17 year old car and that means it has issues that need to be dealt with. I've had to do a fair amount of repairs on it and its still in need of more. These issues are pretty well documented on insight central, but its still time and money.

My other vehicle is a 2004 Prius and all I ever do is put gas in it, and do oil changes. The thing is a solid rock of a car. For this I do love it. No, the driving experience isn't as fun as the Insight, but it just goes and goes, and they both get some pretty great mileage.

I vote spaceship! Just make sure there's one left when i'm ready to buy one!

Natalya should pitch in, she had a G1, now has a G2 insight.

That 13 year old kid inside just asked me to tell you to STFU. :)

The sad thing is, you are right. I suspect that a 7 year old Honda is likely to be at leAst as reliable as your 13 year old Toyota and most certainly more reliable than a 17 year old Honda which was built using brand new at the time, technology.

Still not sure what to do but I am still leaning towards that 13 year old's way of thinking. It's a character flaw of mine. Just ask my wife.


The good thing about the G1 is that it's so damn cheap, if I get 6 months out of it, it's paid for itself.

So worst case, it's fairly cheap fun :-)

I have a 2000 G1 also, and except for one irritating quirk* it's been pretty trouble-free. My only concern would be with hauling the X-ray machine.

*Which is that if the 12V battery goes bad, the car won't run, and AFAIK there's no way to tell if it's going bad. With a conventional car, I'd notice a weak starter &c, but with the Insight, there's no clue.

Easy enough solution would be digital volt meter. I would think that the battery voltage with everything off would tell when it is getting weak. I could easily mount a few probe test points in the dash to measure it with my fluke from time to time.

Can you bump start a G1 with a tired battery?

I'm in a similar boat as Daox, have a Prius, had a G1 Insight, never driven a G2 Insight. The Insight was fun, but I didn't drive enough to call it anything other than a toy (so I got rid of it for toys that don't require insurance http://ecomodder.com/forum/showthrea...ike-28487.html). It sounds like you do drive enough, but then there's the issue of fitting your equipment.

If you can get a G1 Insight for $2k and you're not afraid to give it some love, I'd say go for it. If you decide the G2 would work better for you, I would highly suggest looking at a Prius as well. In my area it looks like the biggest difference between a G2 Insight and Prius of the same price is that the Insight will be a few years newer, but they'll have similar miles.

I haven't researched it, but my impression is that Priuses (Prii?) is that they sell for more. The G2 just never did catch on, I suspect because most buy a Hybrid for it's amazing urban driving mileage. And the G2, or G1 for that matter can not match the Prius in this category. But the thing is, I don't give a crap about how efficient it is in stop and go traffic. 90+ percent of my driving is interstate. And in this area, I believe it is close to a draw. And the G2 is a more fun car to drive, because Honda just has a knack for making even their most boring cars fun to drive. Toyota, not so much.

It's a shame they didn't offer the G2 with a 6 speed manual as nobody does sweet shifting fwd manuals as well as Honda.

Just looked at the G2. Very impressive. Looks very good. Extremely clean underneath. No signs of damage. He said it had a light hit in front, new fender. Under the hood it looks brand new. The IMA gauge read charge/assist as you would expect. Tires close to new although I don't believe they were LRR tires. I would like to take it on the highway and see how it does at 70mph.

I'm a happy Gen 1 driver. 2000 5-spd.

I live in southeastern CT, and work near Hartford. Same state as you.

Part of the reason I'm happy with the Gen 1 is that I'm an obsessive hypermiler. I'm usually perfectly happy to sacrifice speed to get mpg.

I can share a bit on a couple topics.

Mine came with an aftermarket Bumblebee battery the seller had purchased two years earlier. Half a year later, it was in trouble. Bumblebee honored the 3-year warranty and provided a replacement. I installed the replacement and shipped my ailing battery back in their carton. How could I not like that?

I'm convinced that the Gen 1 battery/motor programming and the battery cooling are not the best for the car - and are the reason the batteries fail. To drive the car efficiently long term, you need a "Calpod" - two manual switches that fake the action of the car's brake and clutch switches. Also a switch to manually run the battery cooling fan, and possibly an upgraded fan.

Faking the clutch switch disables IMA assist AND regen. That's most important. Reason: Left to its own devices, the car calls for assist often, but rarely calls for regen until the battery charge level is low (which will happen of course, because it likes to call for assist). So it ends up forcing regen at times when this requires additional fuel. I found constant "churning" of energy in and out of the battery. All that energy going in and out of the battery causes heat, which is probably the primary core cause of battery failure.

Faking the brake switch will cause regen, assuming all other conditions are appropriate. But regen unless you're on a really steep downgrade, regen will always slow the car down. No such thing as a free lunch. So, while a brake switch is handy sometimes, it won't be your primary tool to keep the battery charged up. And you do want to keep it charged up. Most of the time, keep it 1-2 bars down from max full.

On the open road, there are few situations where the car will call for regen. Really, regen only occurs on a steep downgrade with your foot off the accelerator, or when braking. But it will call for assist for nearly any highway upgrade, for passing, for accelerating into a limited access road, etc., etc.

So, I keep my manual clutch switch activated most of the time. This prevents it from going into assist. I especially avoid using assist for a long upgrade, and we have plenty of them here in CT. There's always a lower gear available. If I do use assist on a long grade, I'll run the battery fan manually, and/or keep the assist to a small level, 4-5 bars if possible. A short burst at or near maximum assist is OK if the fan is on, but otherwise I think it's a guarantee of higher temperatures.

So there you go. The clutch and brake switches are kind of a pain to install but the procedures are there in insightcentral.net. You'll be on your back under the dash by the pedals. Manual fan switching is basically an add-on to the grid charging setup that you'll need anyway. A fan upgrade requires removing the battery compartment's cover panel for access, same as when installing a grid charger harness. You'll spend time on these but not a lot of money.

Daox, Like you, I enjoy meddling with vehicles as they go down the road, which is why most cars I have owned are manuals. So, that has me leaning towards the G1 again.

It kind of almost sounds as if rigging up all these switches and manipulating things as you say, in addition to being entertaining, might also serve to do the job of a grid charger. Is this an accurate statement or should the GC be part of the equation as well.

One more question. How far can you coast on that hill in Glastonbury on 2? I would think just about into east hartford if you had a little extra ballast on board. I was driving a buddy's old chevy pickup when it ran out of gas there and I was able to coast into the gas station just off the exit after that hill. It was a long slow coast though.

No. In fact, you can be driving down the highway and it will quit. There is a bit of warning if you know what to look for. The DC-DC converter (that converts 144V from the pack down to 14.4V to charge the 12V battery) will cut out. That will light the battery & brake lights on the dash (something that I've never seen documented), and if you have a ScanGauge or similar, the voltage will start dropping below 12V. It normally varies between 14.4 when charging, and 12.x.

This is IMHO a design flaw: the car simply will not run if there isn't some minimum charge in the 12V, even when the IMA pack is fully charged. So e.g. forgetting to turn off headlights will leave you stuck.

Otherwise, I've been quite happy with the car. (Going on 14 years/150K miles now.) Of course I've had a MIMA system since the first year I owned it (like the Calpod thing, but more advanced). I also live in the Sierra Nevada, so have lots of long mountain climbs and descents.

It's also not good if there's more than about 5-6 inches of snow on the roads. It's just not a snowplow: the smooth belly pan makes it want to ride on top of the snow. But it's decent on snowy roads if it's not deep. I've driven over 8000 ft passes in snowstorms with no problem.

G1 is so much more fun than the G2. I really miss mine and want to get another as soon as I can.

Unless you absolutely NEED the extra seating or extra storage of the G2, then go G1. I use the G2 to make money, so mine is utilitarian to me, but yeah it doesn't have a soul. I do want to say though that the G2 is a little more comfortable and it does have excellent handling.

Unfortunately, no. The car will generally only charge the battery to about 80% of its actual capacity (it might charge to 100% when it's recalibrating, but I can't remember). The purpose of a grid charger is to charge it to 100% and slightly overcharge the cells that get there first in order to get the others to 100%. This balances the pack. It's not as good as breaking down the battery and balancing each stick individually, but much easier and good enough in most cases.

Grid charging: As vskid3 wrote, regulating assist and regen via a Calpod or MIMA won't replace grid charging. It looks like any Gen 1 Insight should get grid charged once every 3-4 months. If your car doesn't come with a harness for that, you'll need to put it in.

The coast down that big hill? I don't coast nearly as far as you thought I might. The fastest I'll push it after cresting the hill is about 70, traffic permitting. Often I'll max out at 65. I think on a good day, I can get almost to where Rte 3 comes in. My Accord coasted further. It had much higher aero drag, but weighed nearly 1000 lb more than the Insight. Once it got going, not much could stop it. But it came nowhere near the Insight in mpg. Not counting Green Grand Prix competitions, it's best tanks were in the upper 40's mpg.

I drove a G2 for a day and, in a reversal from most commenters here, have no experience in a G1 (I wish). My take:

The G2 is a snore. It's actually a bit smaller inside than my Civic. I know nothing about its IMA system except that its peak voltage is vastly different from the HCH. The trunk was pretty roomy, all things considered.

It was super quiet. Driving it was about the least engaging interaction I have ever had with a car, and I've driven a lot of really numb cars. I reckon a Tesla on Autopilot would be more interesting.

That is why I mentioned extra ballast. Great coasting is as much a function of density as it is aero drag. Fill up the hatch area with bricks and you might see 100 mph down that hill.

The bill always comes due!

Newton's 3rd law says that won't help your fuel economy.

I recall reading a thread somewhere discussing the topic of extra weight possibly being beneficial in certain P&G situations. I believe the rational had to do with the extended glide times. Don't recall if anyone ever put it to an actual test.

Today I tested that coast for you, Pete.
Just past the crest of the hill, I got it up to 72 mph and put it in a coast. There was only light traffic there so I could coast without braking. I coasted 1.6 miles till the speed dropped to about 57--58 mph.

There's a long and gentle upgrade as you approach Exit 8, Hebron Ave in Glastonbury. It's a half mile long, and then some. I don't see any car coasting that whole stretch without losing significant speed. Then, the exit ramp towards the gas station is uphill.

Well Bill's old Chevy pickup must have had real good bearings. Plus we had 3 guys in the cab, it had one of those utility bodies, a bunch of tools and probably a few bags of quickcrete. Also it was a manual transmission. I forget exactly where I lost power but it was after the crest of the hill, but not by much. All I remember was a verrrrrry long coast and going up that long off ramp was agonizing. It made it though under its own power. But you could have jump out and beat it to that gas station which is just to the left on Hebron Ave.

Next time put 6 bags of quickcrete in the back! Good luck getting it to 72 mph at the crest though.

Yeah, I always wonder about bearings and other friction sources in the drivetrain and elsewhere.

IMO a properly serviced servicable bearing is superior to a sealed bearing from a friction point of view. And a damn site easier to work on!

I have widened my search to include another member of the Honda hybrid family, a '15 CRV. It has 11K miles on it. Haven't driven yet but looks awfully good. The only catch is a salvage title. The seller owns a body shop. He picked it up from the insurance co. or whoever it is that handles these things. It was Hit down the length of the driver side. New headlight, fender. Door and quarter were repaired. He says there was absolutely no structural damage. Asking 10K.

It is more than I had planned on paying, but, the thoughts of a virtually new, fun car to drive that has a pretty decent cargo hold (I believe it is a little bigger than a G1) is rather appealing.

I realize it will never make hiway mileage numbers like the G1, but with a little effort, i think I can get it into the 50s.

I assume you mean CR-Z? To my knowledge, there is no hybrid version of the CR-V SUV.

Anecdotally, many members of the CR-Z forums are getting upper 30's with typical driving. My impression is that it's geared silly (high engine RPM even in 6th), and that to get decent numbers you'll need to pulse and glide.

Yes, I did mean the CR-Z. I always make that mistake.

And I do agree. From what I have read, 6th gear is kinda short, probably about like 4th on a G1. I really don't get this. I understand that a very tall 6th is going to mean downshifts on long climbs, but so what? No reason at all, when you have 6 freaking cogs, to not make one of them solely for highway cruising. You still have 5 gears that can be squeezed together too tightly to satisfy the tuner racer crowd. But then, this wouldn't be the only example of a tranny that has me scratching my head and asking why. Another good example is the Corvette's 7 speed. Yeah, I know, Porsche did it, so you have to match them, but is there anyone who thinks that a torque monster like the LS7 needs 7 cogs in a light weight sports car. 6 is already a bit of overkill, IMO.

Owned a manual G1 Insight, spent a week each with a G2 Insight and a manual CR-Z.

Lifetime MPG for the G1 was around 60. G2 managed 50mpg over the course of a week, CR-Z managed about 42mpg.

Fun factor was more or less the opposite of economy. CR-Z is way out ahead of the other two, as you might expect. Has the most power, the manual gearbox is great, it feels well balanced, makes a sporty noise, has a fun cabin design, and feels fairly high quality. The seats gave me backache after only 15 minutes or so every time I drove it though.

G1 Insight is surprisingly good for a car so focused on economy over all else, and helped by light weight, but you're always limited by grip and ultra-long gearing. I always found it seriously comfortable over longer distances - whatever it is about the seats and driving position in that car, it just works for me. Interior is one of my favourites on any car too, but it possibly feels a bit flimsy by modern standards.

The G2 Insight's CVT and extra power make it more peppy more of the time, there's a little extra grip to lean on too, and it feels relatively light for a car of its size, but it's not "fun" in a traditional sense - more decently nimble. Probably the quietest and most comfortable of the trio, and obviously much more space inside.

If MPG is all, the G1 Insight has to be the car. The ideal compromise for me would be the CR-Z with the G2 Insight's economy - if it could get that extra easy 10mpg or so I'd probably buy one right now.

Not sure if any of this will help you choose, but just my take having driven all three candidates.

The CRZ was fun for the whole 10 minutes I drove it, but damn, why the hell didn't they give it a tall 6th gear? I think they could get to at least G2 economy with a good OD.

Just a pity that NOx regulations mean it's no longer really possible to have lean-burn, like the first-gen Insight. That was always by far the most useful economy tool on mine.