Instead of a Camry or Sonata family car, Tesla Model E
 

Elon Musk aims for 'Murica's sweet spot. $30,000 Tesla "Model E" Will Be the Company's Most Affordable Car | TechnoBuffalo

He also said he didnt care if someone copied his patents. :eek:

I thought somebody else had captured the rights to the "Model E" name. Musk was saying he already had the S and the X sewed up but he wouldn't be able to have S-E-X because somebody else got it first.

Turns out it's Ford.

From what I'm reading it should have around a 200 mi range. While that's better than most, it's still not enough for many people to make it their main car. I say this as someone who owns and drives a leaf daily, and can't wait for my lease to be up. I love my car, but I feel very constrained by its range.

X2

Wife and I wanted to go with an EV Ford but didn't because of the range limitations. Went with the C-Max instead.

IMO the biggest problem with mainstream appeal of electric cars isn't the range but the recharge time. There are plenty of cars that have a less than 200 mile range on gas depending how you drive but you can stop and be filled up in less than 10 minutes with an electric car you have 200 miles but then hours till you're fully charged. Plus finding a place to plug in isn't as easy as finding a gas station though there are getting to be more and more charging stations. That's why I still think that electric cars won't be the way of the future unless we find a technology that is quicker to recharge or solar panels become efficient enough to be able to recharge cars as they're moving.

You obviously haven't heard of Tesla's Supercharger.
Charges at >250 miles per hour of charging. Sometimes >300. And they are slowly updating various chargers to increase this to much faster.

It is not yet known if the "Model E" will have this feature or not.

200 is enough for me, if its a true 200. I have the VX for longer drives.

I borrowed a camry when I took my scion in for service back in the day for 4 hours and returned it with 215 miles on the odo. :eek:

Uh, this statement has a problem:

"Porritt doesn’t reveal much about the car itself, though we know it will be roughly 20 percent smaller than the Model S. The upcoming compact will also use cheaper materials, possibly swapping out aluminum for steel. “I expect there will be very little carry-over,” he says."

Aluminum is MORE costly than steel -- firstly, in raw material cost and, secondly, in manufacturing costs. Maybe someone left out an "...and..." between the words, like this "...materials, and possibly..."?

I think this is just a semantics error but likewise...

The raw material used to make aluminum is cheaper than dirt, sadly the holy grail of auto engineering has been how to make that dirt into aluminum for less than steel, no one I know of has ever figured that part out.

But if they did aluminum is much more abundant and easier to get than iron ore!

Heh. Modern alchemy.

I still think they would convert lead to gold if they could, but aluminum is pretty useful, too.

I have heard of it but there are still a limited number of them and unless you plan on only following the network of them they only do so much good if you're going to spots that aren't in the network then what? And it's still an hour you're stuck somewhere vs 5-10 minutes for gas.

"So, where do you want to go this weekend?"
[pulls out Tesla map]

I wonder if the supercharger stations get congested?

Oh gawd, can you imagine having to wait inline behind some SMUG ahole with another vehicle at a charging station? :eek:

...a smug-aholier Tesla owner has a Dual Charger at home.

EVs now aren't supposed to replace a main car. They are good for families that own more than 1 vehicle, which is most families. As long as 1 of the vehicles has a petrol engine, who cares what range the EV has? It would only be used for getting groceries and commuting to work.

http://www.aei-ideas.org/wp-content/...s1-600x304.jpg

The range and recharge data is available to the consumer before purchase, so none of this should come as a surprise. I would buy a used Model E for $15k if they were available.

If you live in Detroit, Oregon, you have your choice of 6 charging stations. That's 1 charger for every 34 people that live in the town! :thumbup:

The map in the link below is literally the entire town. I discovered the chargers a couple months ago while driving into the wilderness to camp.

Detroit Lake Supercharger | Tesla Motors

I plan on building my own electric car one day and guess where I would charge it.... HOME. I would use it for commute, groceries, and fun. The road trips will be using a large suv.

Exactly what if they want to talk the whole time just because you both have teslas! :eek:

So one is driving in the middle of nowhere, and the battery dies.

Super long extension cord, or carry a battery-tank to take somewhere and fill up, to get more rang to take it somewhere. Of course [I hope] more people are smarter than this, I am just imagining some people in the middle of the desert, Hills Have Eyes style, being stranded.

Do you watch your gas gauge? You won't "suddenly" lose the battery, in an EV, either.

Here's how Tesla can build the Model E (or whatever it gets called):

The same way that the Illuminati Motor Works '7' goes 220+ miles on a 33kWh pack at 60-70mph on flat-ish ground in low wind, and it uses just ~129Wh/mile:

Low aero drag, free wheel coasting (with regen only when the driver needs it) and improved wall-to-wheel efficiency. The '7' has an AC synchronous motor, so no permanent magnets dragging when you coast. It loses just ~8% vs the ~15% for typical EV's, because it uses no BMS. They bottom balanced the pack (99 CALB 100Ah cells) instead. Much less heat during charging - less heat means less energy lost.

I cannot stress enough about free wheel coasting - the kinetic energy you "invested" in when the car accelerates is used most effectively to - wait for it - move the car forward. Aero drag is the only loss, and you get that all the time anyway.

Use regen only when you need to slow the car. The result is significantly less acceleration, and much less regen is needed to used - so the losses of regen are avoided.

Weight is less of a penalty for EV's for several reasons: electric motors are far more efficient, and so the losses to accelerate the mass is much lower than in an ICE. ICEs are terrible efficiency during acceleration, and even at their peak, when cruising at a steady speed, they are still losing ~3X more energy than an EV does.

Secondly, when coasting, an EV has no consumption. As I mentioned, an AC synchronous motor is better at this than a motor with permanent magnets.

With regen (as needed) that is two ways that the energy "invested" in accelerating the mass of the car (kinetic energy) is regained.

Aero drag is always a *total* loss.

At 30MPH typical cars are losing HALF the energy to aero drag. At 55MPH, they lose 75%, and at higher speeds it quickly goes up to 85-90%.

If the drivetrain is already losing ~75% then those two things are *by far* the most important factors to moving the car forward on as little energy as possible. If the EV drive train is losing 15% then that is a lot better, but if it is only losing ~8%, then that is better still.

Low aero drag is a virtuous circle: low consumption goes much farther on a smaller battery, which both weighs less and costs less, and takes up less room in the chassis.

Other ways to lower consumption are to have "thin" but ergonomic seats. They are perfectly comfortable (if designed right) and they weigh less and take up less room, so you either get a roomier interior and/or the car can be smaller. So, it weighs less and costs less.

Thermal insulation in the chassis, means that (like in a building) the temperature inside the car is more stable without adding energy to either heat or cool it.

All EVs should have direct heating electric defrosters. These take a fraction of the energy and they work very quickly. Like heated seats, by heating the important bits directly, you save a *lot* of energy in the winter.

Heat pumps are becoming common in EVs. Other things to do are use well located air intakes and exhaust vents to passively move air through the vehicle.

I have every confidence that Tesla (and maybe Nissan, and Kia, and VW, and Mitsubishi, and BMW, and Mercedes - and possibly even GM!) can build a ground up EV that takes full advantage of good engineering - that they can sell us a 200+ mile EV for the $30-40K that seems to be the sweet spot. And we should be able to get 125-160 mile EV's for less, as well.

I don't doubt that it can be done. In fact I'm quite sure that well be seeing one very soon. But I don't know that there will be enough of a market for them to attract the larger manufacturers. Every time I have a conversation about electric cars I hear the same 2 things no matter who I'm talking to 1 they're too expensive right now 2 not having to pay for gas is great but I don't want to have to wait hours to recharge my car.

So I think until there is a faster way to recharge or if tesla get the battery exchange program they were talking about a few months ago going, electric cars will remain a niche market until something better comes along. (Toyota FCV anyone?)

How is 300 miles per hour of charge not fast enough? An inconvenience on a road trip, maybe, but fossil fuelled road trips are luxuries that we may no longer have once the wells dry up.
Lots of people have road tripped their Model S from LA to NYC. For free.

I think most companies will find its cheaper to hand over the ev market to tesla and buy credits than produce them at a loss ( especially the closer it gets to 2025). If so, economies of scale should help make this model a possibility. Its in California's best interest to help this along since they'll be made there.

It's not fast enough because the general public is used to 5 minutes for the same range or more. I'm just saying that's what I hear from people I talk to who don't think the same way as someone on this website. They don't care about gas mileage if they're getting close to EPA ratings and they aren't worried about emissions. All they see is the required charge time I think about worse case scenarios.

A lot of people don't know much about EV's, and when they only hear about the "problems" they are not swayed. But once people drive an EV, and when they find out how low cost they are to drive, and that they can offset their driving costs by generating electricity on their home's roof, they will realize that looking past the differences, you gain some huge advantages.

I wouldn't mind a 200 mile range if there was a good enough Supercharger network to support me on long trips. By the end of 2015, Tesla is projecting that they would have continental US pretty well blanketed. Charging shouldn't add too much time to a road trip when you consider that you already have to stop to fuel up, eat, and use the restroom.

I don't think Tesla is interested in making a hyper efficient electric car. It seems their game plan is to have a conventional box car, and just try to drop the cost of batteries so much that stuffing a 60kwh+ pack becomes affordable.

A Nissan leaf pack in an EV1 would have a 145 mile range, compared to the 84mile range for the latest Leafs. You would think that alone woould get the Automakers to understand the "big picture." More range from a smaller less costly battery would sell better!

WHAT?

Now I don't exceed 60 MPH unless gravity is the cause, but I also don't stop. Usually I travel after a shift and go for 5-8 hours, until I get a tad tired and then sleep until the sun puts me back on my way.

An EV would NOT work for me, for traveling. But if an EV worked for my lifestyle, then renting a petrol car would also suffice for these trips.

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Neil, I agree. I know exactly where my fuel gauges are (3/16ths on the Stang, 19/20ths on the Insight)- but most people do not. Most people go until the light comes on. Even with the light, a lot of people don't stop.

When my Mustang light comes on, it tells me there are 50 miles left. When I go those 50 miles, then 50 more miles, I have a gallon or two left. When my Insight told me the tank was 100% empty, it took 9 and change [gallons] out of 14.

Tesla could not call their next car, "Model E". Ford apparently sued them from using that moniker. Ford tried to killed S, E, X, for Tesla. Elon Musk just reimagined it and called it Model 3 or Model III.

Most prefer to do it horizontal anyway!

http://i.imgur.com/mwGJpSF.jpg

...now BMW has a beef with it.

Now that's funny.

This is relevant to my interests. I may get one shot at having an electric car. I'd like to see a $2-4000 conversion and 20-40 mile range. Do you think it would be possible to go with AC in that scenario? Could you suggest other threads or search terms to try?

Gosh, I hope that some of these responses are facetious. Ecomodders should know that for the vast majority of the driving public, a 'low range' EV is more than adequate. I'm in my third year of putting over 18,000 annual miles on an i-MiEV, which is rated at only 62 miles range. The EV purchased as a "second car" quickly becomes the primary vehicle, simply because it is so much more enjoyable to drive, not to mention so much more economical. Our gasser is now relegated to secondary and road trip use, though with the DC fast charging infrastructure of WA and OR, all trips up to 100 miles are plenty convenient by EV. Multiple charging stops (3 between Tacoma and Portland, do get kind of tedious).

On Monday, I had a second date with a young lady who insulted everything compared to her Prius. She insisted Dad's Focus SFE was way too small.

What would she say of my HX, with its dented fender and cracked paint?

Yet, I rarely have more than one passenger, and both the Focus and Civic rival the mileage of her toy.

I just drove four hours to see my new niece and have waited about that long to actually see her. How long you can drive and how frequently you need to stop is highly variable. We only stopped for lights and we always pack the food and drink we need for the entire trip, but people driving with small children may need to stop frequently.

Is 400 MPH the limit on supercharging? You would need to stop for thirty minutes for every three hours you drove. Free charging is great, but would that be enough? Maybe free wifi and device charging while your car is charging.

By the way, the Model E is now going to be called the Model III; as apparently Ford (!) has already registered the name Model E.

Also relevant to my interest. The i-MiEV interfaces with the Tesla network. Isn't there a competing standard?

I see your other EV is a '71. My best candidate is a '58 body on a '71 floorpan. Do you know anything about what it would take to interface those to the Tesla stations?

NeilBlanchard -- SIIIX?

I believe that would be CHAdeMO

At least she wasn't making comparisons to her Daddy.

radiantthought -- Thanks, from CHAdeMO - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia I found Category:Charging stations - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. Based on the subjects, 11 of the 16 articles are about unique interfaces.

I'm contemplating a home-brew EV conversion; and I need to make informed decisions about the surrounding infrastructure, batteries vs supercapacitors, &etc.

I'd say stick to SAE J1772, you can do 6kw with that and they are, without a doubt, the most common thing you'll see in charging stations. If you're rolling your own I'd say just leave your charge controller open for future modding and then adapt to whichever DC fast charge standard wins out.

We're straying off topic for this thread; but I want to use Paul Holmes controller, from the Fossil Fuel Free sub-forum here, so I can drive around with an Open Revolt logo on the car.