Insurance, legality and your modifications
 

I have lurked in these forums for quite a while and have made a few interesting observations. I would like to hear other member's points of view on them.

One example is using space saver wheels with tyres that are not designed to be installed on them. This would severely affect the handling and braking capabilities of the vehicle. How does the law look on this in the US? In Australia I opwould expect my vehicle to be put off the road immediately, and any insurance would be void.

Similarly with removing interior parts that are intended to protect the occupants in the event of a collision. I understand that we can all drive conservatively and safely, but there will always be factors outside our control that can cause a collision or require abrupt evasive maneuvering to avoid one. I wonder if some of the approaches taken to achieve reduced fuel consumption have considered this?

Am I being overly cautious, or do others not consider the big picture when modding their vehicles?

I welcome a wholesome discussion on this and ask that we all respectfully express our views.

Simon

Legally, I think it is a big grey area.

For example, most would agree space saver tires are probably not a good idea when used outside of their DOT rated operating conditions. (Some are bias ply, most are speed and distance limited.) Is this any more dangerous than someone who puts extra wide high performance summer tires on their car and drives it in inclement weather, where it would hydroplane like crazy? Or anyone who puts huge non-siped mud tires on their 4x4 to look cool and slides off the road in snowy and icy conditions? Or the drivers who drive on their tires way past the wear bars until the steel pokes out to get every mile out of them risking a blowout?

The focus always seems to go on one or two negative safety modifications that have been attempted, but there have been many positive safety modifications made on this site. Personally, I feel that all the modifications I have made to my vehicle has made it more safe than stock. Air dams noticeably reduce lift in addition to drag, which is one big reason why the new Tacomas and Colorados have them, to improve handling at speed. We are putting them on, but other people on other forums are taking them off.

In my opinion, any modification you make to your vehicle basically puts the risk/liability on you for that modification. If you modify your car in a dumb way and you cause an issue directly because of that medication, why should anyone but you be responsible?

Many others may disagree with me, which is fine as we all have different ideas and perspectives we have formed through our personal experiences. I attempt to keep my vehicle looking close to stock in order not to attract negative attention, and I always attempt to source and use stock parts when possible to achieve my goals.

Aardvarcus, thanks for the comments.

I agree that sensible aerodynamic modifications can provide significant benefits for reasonable cost with very low risk. The only area that needs to be considered is the potential to injure pedestrians. Most of the under-car stuff is no issue but some of the more radical mods need to consider this.

Everybody needs to critically evaluate the mods and how they may impact others, and this is what I am trying to highlight. I cringe when I read about a novice that is going to perform a plethora of mods without doing the research into what else may be affected. If I was in the USA I would be scared to do some of the posted mods for fear of being litigated out of existence.

Simon

Uhmericans are scared enough to take many chances In The Land Of The Free.

For example I know there's a lot of fear involved with making a motorized bicycle. Is it too fast, is it this, is it that. When I was young I heard story after story about guys who hung engines on their bikes. Back before lawyers ran the country. Back when there wasn't 1000 people/square mile and everyone wasn't stepping on everyone else's toes.

http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r...psbblrgd2a.jpg

We have quite simple situation in the E.U. Does your mod have E.U.approval declaration? No? So its illegal, you fail bi-annual inspection. Does it have declaration but its used beyond its scope? ( putting VW OEM lights on Renault car for example.), its illegal, you fail annual inspection. So every mod I did has to be removable on roadside, lightweight and harmless. Pulled over one time, removed my rear skirts as asked. But even here there must be loopholes, because sometimes I see modded cars a' la Wingo pixar character.

... Or maybe they remove all mods before inspection.

Always mod responsibly! My 35% VLT window tint isn't legal in New York State, but I've never been hassled about it. Removing my outside mirror isn't legal here either, but my interior side view mirror gives me a better view. I got pulled over once for the missing mirror. I have also removed the passenger's side wiper arm and put a longer wiper blade on the driver's side. I put the mirror and wiper back on once a year for the annual inspection. I don't think any of my illegal mods endanger anybody. Safety is important when modding cars. Which is why I still have the interior pieces around the front seats still in place. I don't want sharp metal around me! My 25 year old pile of rust isn't safe compared to a modern car, but I haven't done anything to it that makes it less safe to me or anybody else. Except let it rust!

The "new" ecomodder 'by-line" (for political correctness)?

There are laws up here, last I heard, that tell you that all metal in the vehicle's passenger cabin must be covered. The guys who add roll cages to their cars end up putting pipe insulation foam around the tubes for this purpose. Anyway, just another reason for me not to strip my interior.
I wonder if just covering it all in duct tape would be enough?

My old cars/trucks are half metal inside, stock.

Not to hyjack, but I know a guy who got a speeding ticket for doing 32 mph in a 30 zone from the electric motor he added on to his pedal bike. Not a joke.

PS luv the pic! Saved a copy for myself!

I think that here in WV, most people aren't terribly concerned about my mods, unless I have an accident due to them... I deleted my passenger side wiper, so I would be faulted if a pedestrian runs out in front of me from the right, and my tail lights are tinted, so I would be faulted if I were rear ended, but I have yet to be pulled over for anything I've done to the car...

Doesn't it concern you that you may injure or kill a pedestrian because you modded the car to save a few drops of fuel?

Simon

Accidents tend to be caused by a chain of unfortunate events. Most likely the mod would be a link in a chain. Best to meditate and clear your karma before you take the wheel. Just in case.

I've seen other discussion by residents of your fair land, that seemed to indicate the law prescribes the [vertical] gap between the tire and fender. No stance for you!

Insurance and legality vary by location. In this locale, there's no testing for emissions unless you're in the Potland, OR metro area. But like everywhere the law is an @ss — you're required to have a windshield wiper but you're not required to have a windshield. :confused: Here's what cars look like around here:

http://ecomodder.com/forum/member-fr...6-100-0896.jpg

Frank Lee -- That's sweet. Teeth from a harrow?

I know where there's a 1958 GMC COE parked in a fence row. Slammed to the ground, with a 1957 Cadillac front bumper —and those teeth— would be awesome. There may be a harrow in that fence row, it was an old I-H dealer that burnt down.

Accidents is a really bad term for them, and most of the chain of events are actually avoidable to some extent. I prefer to call them collisions, and in most cases they are not accidents.

An accident is when a kangaroo hops alongside the road, you brake and then it hops onto the bonnet and windscreen. Sheer bad luck and totally unavoidable except for leaving the car in the garage.

This is the way I look at it:

A collision is where a pedestrian does not look at the oncoming traffic (inattention, haste) and walks into the road in front of you on a wet day (bad conditions). You don't see him in time due to a removed passenger side wiper (inappropriate mod) but brake hard and lock up the tyres (running at too high pressure increases braking distance) and hit him, injuring him severely (outcome).

If you had not removed the wiper you might have seen him earlier and braked, lowering the impact speed (reduced injuries).

If the tyres were running at the pressure that gave optimal traction / braking performance you may have been able to slow down more and steer away (reduced injuries or collision avoided),

I hate wasting money and resources - hence why my garage has two hybrids in it. They are both fairly recent Lexus' and have numerous safety features that have avoided three collisions since we have owned them. A potential head-on collision was avoided by the active cruise control system applying braking as an oncoming car pulled out into our lane. This occurred faster than I could have applied the brakes, and I drive with my left foot hovering over the brake pedal to reduce my reaction time (a carryover from my motor sport days). These features cost money, add weight and ultimately reduce the fuel efficiency of my vehicles, but life is precious and I would hate to injure somebody just because I wanted to save a few cents.

I had better hop off the soapbox now.

Simon

While I wouldn't mind a newer car with some active safety features, they tend to be costly(your Lexus hybrid for example)... I travel between 20 and 30k miles a year, and the fuel savings are hard to give up... In my case, what I'm saving on fuel versus having a 100% stock car means the difference between being able to take lunch with me to work or having to do without... In the most of the year in which we don't receive snow, the one wiper does fine because I clean the windshield when I refuel, and during a rain, I can see through the droplets by focusing past them...

The higher tire pressure, while does increase braking distances, also makes the steering sharper/more responsive... Studies show that in emergency situations, the best option(given human reaction times) is to steer around the problem, rather than try and stop... This doesn't discount the new automated panic braking systems in newer cars at all, due to sensors and computer algorithms removing the human error with detecting hidden threats...

So let’s replay your scenario using a non-ecomodder drivers:

Scenerio: Pedestrian walks out in front of a car because that person is irresponsible.

Result 1: Non-ecomodder driver is texting and driving, doesn’t brake at all.

Result 2: Or perhaps the driver isn’t texting, but is significantly exceeding the posted speed limit because that person’s kids are late to karate. Slams the brakes sooner, but was going so much faster they still hit the person just as hard.

Result 3: Or maybe they weren’t even speeding much, but as with 90+% of drivers have never checked their tire pressures and the tire pressure was to low for optimal braking which increased braking distance. Plus that person bought cheapo tires that aren’t good at anything, which greatly increases braking distance.

I could go on and on. Somehow I think these scenerios are much more realistic to occur. At the end of the day though, people shouldn’t walk out in front of traffic.

I am really glad you can afford two Lexus. Per the website, a CT 200h with the minimum options to get active collision avoidance is $40,450 USD. So I can get one for me and my wife for $80,900. That might be a bit out of my budget. But to be realistic, you would want to get the F-Sport suspension and sway bars, because anyone who really cared about safety would want be make sure the car had the best handling possible.

To add some perspective, let’s play a new scenario. Let’s say you are about to get into an unavoidable accident/collision because you are boxed in on all sides on the highway and are about to get plowed into by a loaded tractor trailer who can’t stop from behind. Happens all the time. You are a sitting duck! Would you rather be sitting in your CT200h or my old towing truck, which just happens to be a 2001 Chevy 2500HD Extended Cab 4x4/496/Allison sitting on a real one ton truck frame which weighs 7,000lbs empty and happens to have a 6.5’ crumple zone (known as the bed). Which would you rather be sitting in? I get a big discount on the insurance of that monstrosity because it is one of the “safest” vehicles on the road from the insurance company’s perspective. Should people trade in their 50+ MPG Hondas to drive 12 MPG one ton trucks for safety? Where does it end?

I don’t know about others on this site, but I have personally avoided a fairly large number of collisions by paying attention. I don’t think any of the people I was avoiding were ecomodders either.

So when a jaywalker doesn't look... Blame the economy guy! If only he'd had that wiper blade my poor, innocent so-and-so who should have waited for the light would still be alive. I was on an Amtrak run in California this summer and it stopped because, as they announced, "a freight train up ahead struck a trespasser." No, the train wasn't covered with pillows and the innocent pedestrian who was just minding his own business got (presumably) killed. Blame the freight train.

I, too, believe life is precious. I've put my own life and others' lives at great risk to avoid killing other people, which may or may not have been the best way to do the job I had at the time but I wasn't going to casually kill people just because they may have presented a threat (even though it would have been perfectly legal) to us. So I'm on board with not killing people, okay? But if something I do doesn't cause the problem, don't blame things I did for the fact the day didn't turn out all smiles and rainbows- people who have both wiper blades, for instance, can also be looking to the other side when said jaywalker pops out into the road while texting. A passenger side blade isn't going to save anyone there.

My tires are well inflated. That may reduce grip, but I drive well within the limits of grip. Don't look to me if someone causes a situation that I can't stop in time to avoid. My "mod" didn't cause anything even though it has the potential to make a bad situation worse.

As for tire grip; the sideways grip seems to improve with high pressure due to less deformation. High tire pressure may help avoid danger, even if braking distance suffers (which I doubt, actually).

One thing that goes beyond doubt is that both braking and handling improve when you get top tier tires.
All cars and bikes I bought secondhand had cheap tires on them, all of them improved dramatically when fitted with the right stuff.
I air up my tires (moderately, even) with a clear conscience.

I've got Yokohama Avid Ascends, hardly Walmart specials. But I'm living on the edge, running above the car's recommended pressure.

Do stop by from time to time to see how the pot you stirred is simmering.

I would say the vast majority of the drivers on this forum who modify their cars pay much more attention to what's going around them in traffic with the intent of conserving momentum but with the side benefit of vastly improved situational awareness than those that don't. We'll also likely be driving a tad slower than the inattentive majority of the drivers around us.

We also represent a regrettably small portion of the driving population. So with all that said your stunned texting pokemon playing pedestrian is going to die at the hands of many more average drivers driving 'regulation' vehicles any day of the week. Period.

When I'm driving I continually run scary, what-if disaster scenarios in my head. But I discount them when they [mostly] don't happen.

Come to think of it, also when I'm a pedestrian. Or riding my bike. Or a passenger on the bus.

Freebeard, it is bubbling away really well. I am interested in others opinions and will post more replies later today when I get some time.

Simon

Not quite as expensive as that. I bought both secondhand. The CT was $20K AUD and it has everything in it. The RX was nearly double that but cheap compared to the list price of nearly $120K.

Both are the Sports Luxury model which has the uprated suspension with all of the luxury bits too. Their handling and stopping is unbelievable.

Pletby, I dont disagree with your premise that most of us will be more attentive than Joe Public, but SOME of the modifications put forward are downright irresponsible in my opinion.

Having said that, there is a quote that goes something like:

Opinions are like assholes. Everybody has got one. Some stink and most should not be seen in public.

and it applies to me as much as everybody else.

Simon

RedDevil, agreed totally and there is a happy medium that delivers improved economy, better handling and also reduced braking distances. I do not believe that it is 25% in excess of the maximum sidewall pressure...

I also run my tyres at an increased pressure, generally about 20-25% above the manufacturer's recommended. I also run a tyre pressure monitoring system to alert me of a puncture and to optimise economy. These can be bought aftermarket for around $80 and will more than pay for themselves if you avoid one puncture being run flat at highway speed.

Simon

Yep! Treat everybody else on the road as a homicidal maniac intent on killing you. Unfortunately, 99% of the time you are accurate.

Simon

I think I am going to have to stop posting in this thread, it must be bad karma as I almost got hit on the highway yesterday.

I was traveling the speed limit of 55 with my cruise on in the slow lane of a four lane highway. Conditions were very sparse traffic nobody even near me. As I approached a green traffic light, there is a car in the turn lane opposite me waiting to turn left. That car would have had a green as well, so he was to yield to oncoming traffic (me). Just as I am about to enter into the intersection, I see the car in the turn lane start to come forward. For a split second I thought he was just inching up to turn right after me, but as the car gained speed I quickly realized he intended to complete his turn right into my driver’s side door. I immediately swerved hard to the right into the shoulder area, but after going over about 10’ or so had to quickly correct back to straight so that I didn’t clip the front bumpers off of the cars waiting at the light on the cross road. All this was done in what felt like fractions of a second. I managed to miss both the impatient turner and the cars on the cross road but it was close.

I am not aware of any “crash avoiding” vehicle out there that would have handled that situation. If I or the car had simply hit the brakes I would have definitely been in a collision. If the car had attempted to hit the brakes on me while I was trying to swerve, I would have been in a collision.

As I cut my vehicle hard at speed I could feel the vehicle wanting to lift up and lose traction, but it didn’t. It was close though. I am glad to be running my front air dam, which noticeably increases down force and improves handling. I do not think that my truck would have made those two quick hard turning corrections without that airdam. There is little doubt in my mind that it have lost traction on the front steering axle and skidded during at least one of those turns. If I didn't execute both turns, I was going to hit or be hit by something.

So heres to ecomodder, yesterday the things I learned and implemented from this site most likely kept me out of a collision.

With that, I am signing out of this thread, as I no longer want to be a guinea pig for this topic. You guys have fun arguing the rest of the issues out. I think I and my menace to the world non-self-driving vehicles need to find something more productive to focus our energy on. I should probably start a thread on my 1994 Turbo Diesel Suburban project.

Aardvarcus, good to hear you are ok and avoided a collision.

Simon

Glad you're okay Aardvarcus.

[waves at the closing door]

The Earth is overpopulated anyway. Perhaps the inattentive pedestrian is just Mother Nature's way of cleaning the gene pool.

Do not the Lexi already have tire monitoring built in?

Unfortunately, not Downunder.

Simon