interference engines

[Ryland]

I've seen VW timing belts fail, but on a VW a lot of things fail, so I'd never base my failure rate of other vehicles off what VW has had happen.
I've only seen one Honda Civic timing belt fail and that was with around 140,000 miles on it and over 20 years old, other timing belts that I've pulled off that were 25 years old with just over 100,000 miles on them still looked great and there are enough other people on here with Honda's that are 20 to 30 years old that if timing belts were failing because of aged rubber someone would be talking about it, but even when I'd read the Civic and CRX racing forums it was rare to have happen.

[TracerZX2]

Originally Posted by sendler

OK. I should have said interference combustion chambers are better.

I know it is being picky, but on TZX2 we are very careful about that because it can mislead someone, then they are blaming us.

[jtbo]

It is common knowledge that timing belts age and fail, also belt can look just fine and snap off.

This shows that when aged belt is stretched it does break a lot earlier than good fresh belt :
http://www.therban.com/imperia/md/co...beltrecipe.pdf

Same goes with any part made of rubber, they fail with age, every rubber part, hoses, bushings etc. 20 years with timing belt is pure luck or that is what I was told when studing to be car mechanic, but it was long a ago, new belts surely can be lot better as any rubber parts are, still it is their curse that eventually they will fail with time.

edit: There is more of this stuff:
http://www.canadiantechnician.com/se...?intDocID=3049

Information about aging is practically everywhere, so I'm surprised that this would be unheard of?

[TracerZX2]

Originally Posted by Ryland

I've seen VW timing belts fail, but on a VW a lot of things fail, so I'd never base my failure rate of other vehicles off what VW has had happen.
I've only seen one Honda Civic timing belt fail and that was with around 140,000 miles on it and over 20 years old, other timing belts that I've pulled off that were 25 years old with just over 100,000 miles on them still looked great and there are enough other people on here with Honda's that are 20 to 30 years old that if timing belts were failing because of aged rubber someone would be talking about it, but even when I'd read the Civic and CRX racing forums it was rare to have happen.

Agree, one doesn't translate to the other fully, and while the OP was discussing a honda, the generalities were painting a rose colored picture, which isn't always so. Timing belt fail is an extremely common problem

[drmiller100]

interference engines have less surface area in the combustion chamber.

valve reliefs make for more surface area.

the more surface area you have, the more heat is lost to the surface. the more heat you lose, the less efficient the engine.

almost all manufacturers are going to timing chains in the past 10 years. Even honda.

[Ryland]

Originally Posted by TracerZX2

Agree, one doesn't translate to the other fully, and while the OP was discussing a honda, the generalities were painting a rose colored picture, which isn't always so. Timing belt fail is an extremely common problem

True, but suggesting that you need to change the timing belt every 5 years because VW has a high failure rate is not productive if there haven't been any cases of an early failure in a Honda, but it is a part that wears out and the car in question is 28 years old and pretty new to the current owner so it's a good idea to check it for signs of age and wear, if it is a 28 year old belt then it also has 130,000 miles on it and for sure needs to be replaced, but if it was replaced at 100,000 miles then it might only be a few years old and he's ok until it reaches 200,000 miles, either way the valve lash is supposed to be check every 30,000 miles and to check that you can easily see the timing belt at the same time, so he has regular inspections of the timing belt to make sure it's no aging prematurely.

[TracerZX2]

Originally Posted by Ryland

True, but suggesting that you need to change the timing belt every 5 years because VW has a high failure rate is not productive if there haven't been any cases of an early failure in a Honda, but it is a part that wears out and the car in question is 28 years old and pretty new to the current owner so it's a good idea to check it for signs of age and wear, if it is a 28 year old belt then it also has 130,000 miles on it and for sure needs to be replaced, but if it was replaced at 100,000 miles then it might only be a few years old and he's ok until it reaches 200,000 miles, either way the valve lash is supposed to be check every 30,000 miles and to check that you can easily see the timing belt at the same time, so he has regular inspections of the timing belt to make sure it's no aging prematurely.

Its called preventitive maintenance. If you have an interferance engine and don't do it, your belt snaps or idler loses bearing and shreds the belt and a major portion of your engine in the process then you took the gamble and lost. I never said a year date, as a matter of fact I stated that using a particular year doesn't work due to variables. Are you absolutely sure the visual inspection will reveal all possible damage to the belt?

[jtbo]

Originally Posted by TracerZX2

Its called preventitive maintenance. If you have an interferance engine and don't do it, your belt snaps or idler loses bearing and shreds the belt and a major portion of your engine in the process then you took the gamble and lost. I never said a year date, as a matter of fact I stated that using a particular year doesn't work due to variables. Are you absolutely sure the visual inspection will reveal all possible damage to the belt?

Indeed, visual inspection is really difficult.

Some bicycles use belts instead of chains, with those many have complained how it is difficult to know when belt will go, surely it will last really long time, but when it goes, it just goes, no warning at all.

That is why preventive maintenance is important with those too, it can look ok, but if tested in lab we could measure and find out how it is no longer good for use, it is not within specs anymore.

I don't like belt driven valve train, but if enough care is taken it does work, it does cost more of course if one has to pay from service as belt needs replacing rather often compared to chain, also replacing chain is not cheap, costs more than replacing belt and modern chains seem not be same as old ones which did last lot longer. Still any system is just about as prone to fail as much servicing is skipped.

[TracerZX2]

Originally Posted by jtbo

Indeed, visual inspection is really difficult.

Some bicycles use belts instead of chains, with those many have complained how it is difficult to know when belt will go, surely it will last really long time, but when it goes, it just goes, no warning at all.

That is why preventive maintenance is important with those too, it can look ok, but if tested in lab we could measure and find out how it is no longer good for use, it is not within specs anymore.

I don't like belt driven valve train, but if enough care is taken it does work, it does cost more of course if one has to pay from service as belt needs replacing rather often compared to chain, also replacing chain is not cheap, costs more than replacing belt and modern chains seem not be same as old ones which did last lot longer. Still any system is just about as prone to fail as much servicing is skipped.

I most certainly agree with what you have said here. Routine service is the key that is constantly ignored.

[Ryland]

Has anyone on here had a Honda Civic timing belt brake due to age and not miles? I have never heard of someone with a Civic that had their timing belt brake without it having over 100,000 miles and there are a ton of people with civic's on here, many of them with timing belts that are 10, 15 or even 20+ years old, and it's very rare to even see a civic for sale that has a broken timing belt, so it really seems like it would be bordering on a freak occurrence to have it brake just because it was more then 5 years old.