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-   The Unicorn Corral (https://ecomodder.com/forum/unicorn-corral.html)
-   -   invest in a K&N air filter (https://ecomodder.com/forum/showthread.php/invest-k-n-air-filter-28439.html)

thesheet 03-12-2014 09:45 PM

invest in a K&N air filter
 
Based on my calculations, my '05 4 cyl altima got 8% better fuel economy after putting it in.

thesheet

LeanBurn 03-13-2014 12:11 PM

Highly unlikely. There are other factors that are always in play, that are seldom accounted for. The throttle plate is the point of largest restriction in flow.

sarguy01 03-13-2014 12:25 PM

Can we see your calculations? What was the before and after testing??

I should have tested mine ABA before I threw away the paper filter. I grabbed a K&N for the savings, not the claimed mileage or hp increase. I already own it, so I am keeping it, but I probably would have passed on it if I know what I know now.

redpoint5 03-13-2014 01:28 PM

This can go straight to the unicorn corral.

Frank Lee 03-13-2014 01:41 PM

Should be "fullofsheet". :rolleyes:

cbaber 03-13-2014 05:35 PM

Are the folks at K&N so desperate they resort to spamming forums? I guess these are the tasks they assign to the marketing interns.

Cobb 03-13-2014 06:40 PM

8%? Imagine the ROI on that. :eek:

user removed 03-13-2014 08:12 PM

Maybe he drove the car 20k miles down a dirt road with the OE filter, drafting someone.:p

regards
Mech

user removed 03-13-2014 08:14 PM

I had an -10% change in mileage today, had to drive home in a 25 MPH headwind.

regards
Mech

mcrews 03-13-2014 08:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frank Lee (Post 415036)
Should be "fullofsheet". :rolleyes:

the-bull-sheet

Cobb 03-13-2014 09:05 PM

Ive used kn on several vehicles to save on replacing the paper element that was stock. I ve never seen an increase in mpg, just noise and maybe a change in performance. :eek:

roosterk0031 03-13-2014 09:13 PM

Waste of money, more fines go thru, then you have to buy the oil & cleaner to maintain them, papers better. (Not that I haven't had a couple)

mcrews 03-13-2014 09:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thesheet (Post 414941)
Based on my calculations, my '05 4 cyl altima got 8% better fuel economy after putting it in.

thesheet

If your not just trolling...
U might try sheach echo mod threads for:
1. Aba testing (anything else is "the bull sheet")
2. Kn filters. There are several factual threads.

gone.2 03-14-2014 05:12 PM

BS, plus the oil in the filter messes with your airflow sensor.

Cobb 03-14-2014 05:40 PM

Clean and oil it? I used the same filter for the life of the car unserviced. They say the more dirty it is the better it works. :eek:

fearone 03-14-2014 05:47 PM

Why is this not in the Unicorn Corral yet?

dmafanp 03-14-2014 06:18 PM

the K&N air filter will put more particles into your engine,, go with stock

RedDevil 03-14-2014 07:03 PM

I feel we have a problem here.

If TheSheet (welcome!) is a spambot all these replies are a waste of time.
If (s?)he is an aspiring ecomodder we put her off big time. Yes her claim doesn't sound true to our 'expert' ears. She didn't follow the read, read, read, introduce, post protocol.
But you cannot teach good manners with harshness alone.

So, what to do.
I don't like the idea of scaring away new members just because they make some incrediulous claim in their first post.
Nor would I like to waste any time on some clever spam bot or trolling fool.

Do we have to tackle this issue in some way? Or just let it bleed out?

Cobb 03-14-2014 09:19 PM

I purchased the crz kn cai and put it on my insight. All I can say is VROOMMMmmmmm. Its noticeably louder and there is a chang ein the power band. It no longer seems to hyperventilate as you approach redline, but in fact keeps pulling. Unlike the maze the air had to travel through its just a piece of pipe bent at a 90 degree angle with a cone shape filter on the end. No improvement in mpg, but the butt dyno says yes. :eek:

mcrews 03-14-2014 09:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RedDevil (Post 415270)
I feel we have a problem here.

If TheSheet (welcome!) is a spambot all these replies are a waste of time.
If (s?)he is an aspiring ecomodder we put her off big time. Yes her claim doesn't sound true to our 'expert' ears. She didn't follow the read, read, read, introduce, post protocol.
But you cannot teach good manners with harshness alone.

So, what to do.
I don't like the idea of scaring away new members just because they make some incrediulous claim in their first post.
Nor would I like to waste any time on some clever spam bot or trolling fool.

Do we have to tackle this issue in some way? Or just let it bleed out?

Well.....if your concern is real and sincere, then you wouldn't talk about her?(really..) like she's dead.
Instead, you welcome them and address them, laugh the other posters off and move on.
Unfortunately your post is lame

mcrews 03-14-2014 09:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cobb (Post 415299)
I purchased the crz kn cai and put it on my insight. All I can say is VROOMMMmmmmm. Its noticeably louder and there is a chang ein the power band. It no longer seems to hyperventilate as you approach redline, but in fact keeps pulling. Unlike the maze the air had to travel through its just a piece of pipe bent at a 90 degree angle with a cone shape filter on the end. No improvement in mpg, but the butt dyno says yes. :eek:

Can't quite wrap
Around the idea of a sentence where redline and insight are used together...:eek:

thesheet 03-14-2014 11:32 PM

You are correct Red Devil, i am not a Spam Bot.
I think, therefore I am, (not a spam bot), most of the rest of you don't think. Your posts are hideous.
Disgusting.

You are correct Red Devil, I have been turned off this forum and shall vote with my feet.
Bye Bye

minus a couple posters here, you are the trolls....

Frank Lee 03-15-2014 12:19 AM

Oh how very sad.

doviatt 03-15-2014 12:20 AM

Wait, wait. Please don't go, yet. I'm interested....
Got some data?
What mileage were you getting before the change?

ChazInMT 03-15-2014 01:15 AM

Not Trolls, really. (Well, maybe Frank is a bit of a troll Frank Lee Selfie) Just maybe a bit wiser to how things function in automobiles and not really wanting to put up with claims that are unsubstantiated and to be sure, challenge the laws of physics.

If you came in here and said you were able to drive across a lake now because you just installed new tires, you'd get the same reaction.

In the intake for most gasoline engines, the throttle plate controls how much air the engine receives. This is set based on how much power you need, and the air required to mix with the amount of fuel being used. So, the variable here is power required to go a certain speed. The amount of power requires an exact amount of air.

Lets look at the 2 extremes for an air filter. If a filter is highly restrictive, then the throttle will open more for a given power setting than it normally would to draw more air through the filter, same amount of air enters the engine, same amount of fuel since the fuel injection operates somewhat independently of the throttle position. Thus fuel economy is the same.

If you remove the filter and have no restriction, then the throttle will close a bit, the same amount of air and fuel will burn for a given power requirement and again, no change in fuel economy.

Now if you want the most power you can get out of your engine for the greatest amount of acceleration possible, then without a doubt, a lower restriction on the air filter will maximize power output. But this does not mean it is more fuel efficient, it's a common misconception that more efficient an engine is at creating horsepower, then the more fuel efficient it is as well. If this were the case, then a Bugatti Veyron should get around 95mpg. They don't.

As some have tried to point out, the KN filter is awful at actually filtering the air going into your engine, somewhat large microscopic particles can pass through it such as tiny sand particles, these will act like sand paper on the wear surfaces of your engine and cause it to wear out much sooner than it would if you had a filter that stopped these bits. This is why the wiser among us will give up a few extra 1/10ths of a second in our 0-60 MPH acceleration in order to get a few extra 10's (100's) of thousands of miles out of our engines.

So there it is, the basic physics of why a 8% gain in fuel efficiency was not caused by an air filter change. If you look at my Honda fuel efficiency, it jumps from 28 mpg to 43 mpg depending on a whole crapload of variables, air intake restriction is not one of the variables. So, nobody is saying you didn't see a 8% change, they are saying it was certainly caused by something else besides the air filter swap, ie, driving speed, wind direction, traffic patterns, driving habits, and air temperature. Any of these could easily impact your mpg readings by 8%.

Frank Lee 03-15-2014 01:52 AM

Very funny- that's not me; I have a beard. :p

RedDevil 03-15-2014 03:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mcrews (Post 415311)
Well.....if your concern is real and sincere, then you wouldn't talk about her?(really..) like she's dead.
Instead, you welcome them and address them, laugh the other posters off and move on.
Unfortunately your post is lame

????

Why would my claim not be sincere?
Write like (s?)he's dead? I've reread my post several times, don't see that.
(edit) I was addressing the forum in general, not the OP (save the hyphened welcome) is that insincere?
I don't laugh at the other posters. I call for restraint.
My post is lame you say. In your eyes maybe. I shrug that off.

I think the way things turned out has already proved my point.

user removed 03-15-2014 07:58 AM

There is plenty of data that shows K&N filters do not provide the protection of an OE filter. If I drive my car through a whole tank of fuel and never see over 3500 RPM, why would I need more power (and less economy) than I already have.

The example I always remember is the 1.5 liter Alfa grand prix racer of 1950. Two .75 liter 4 cylinder engines bolted nose to nose with all accessories gear driven. 390 HP on 92cubic inches at close to 10k RPM. Two stage supercharging.

2 miles per gallon under racing conditions.

Power and economy is a great goal, but power means fuel and in the case of the Alfa a heck of a lot of fuel.

regards
Mech

RedDevil 03-15-2014 08:11 AM

It is obvious that the filter will have little impact as long as the throttle plate is used to restrict the air flow; a less restrictive filter would just be compensated by lifting the go pedal to maintain the exact same vacuum.

Nevertheless, there is no harm in some A-B-A testing.

Not A-B testing of course...
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Insight for life 03-15-2014 11:06 AM

Im with you RedDevil. I can imagine being in the op shoes. There was a day I thought the world of k&n. And yes I wanted to shout it from the roof tops! I think it would be nice to break the new unknowing posters in a little more softly next time. He/she may never hypermile again because of crushed spirit, ok maybe it wont be that bad lol.

RedDevil 03-15-2014 11:33 AM

I can imagine how he (probably) really saw an improvement just after fitting the K&N filter in an A-B test situation.

I had a proper test situation today driving the same route twice: dropping my wife and stuff off at the flea market, then picking her up again with 95% of the stuff we brought.
First trip: 6.0 l/100 km (for about 10 km of city driving)
Second trip: 5.4 l/100 km. About 11% better.
Same driving style, very much the same conditions. But the engine was still a bit warm. And then there's the hybrid system with a mind of its own; heavy regen in the first trip.
A single A-B test gain will not cut it.

mcrews 03-15-2014 03:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RedDevil (Post 415360)
????

Why would my claim not be sincere?
Write like (s?)he's dead? I've reread my post several times, don't see that.
(edit) I was addressing the forum in general, not the OP (save the hyphened welcome) is that insincere?
I don't laugh at the other posters. I call for restraint.
My post is lame you say. In your eyes maybe. I shrug that off.

I think the way things turned out has already proved my point.

My point is, you never addressed the poster! Offered nothing of the "warm and fuzzy" welcome you claimed the rest of us ignored. You did Exactly what we did. Just with different words.
Here do this....write a post as the second person to post on this thread.......do it now....
See... A different post than what you wrote
I really have to explain this to you!!!

And actually, nothing has been "proven". The op is hiding behind your post...like an intern would.
Look, there are patterns that happen with new poster. This op failed the pattern.
Next, this would have to be a complete and total newbie to any and all forum postings for me to buy into this one.

RedDevil 03-15-2014 04:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mcrews (Post 415422)
My point is, you never addressed the poster! Offered nothing of the "warm and fuzzy" welcome you claimed the rest of us ignored. You did Exactly what we did. Just with different words.
Here do this....write a post as the second person to post on this thread.......do it now....
See... A different post than what you wrote
I really have to explain this to you!!!

And actually, nothing has been "proven". The op is hiding behind your post...like an intern would.
Look, there are patterns that happen with new poster. This op failed the pattern.
Next, this would have to be a complete and total newbie to any and all forum postings for me to buy into this one.

I was addressing the forum, to start a discussion about how we should respond to situations like these.
I (despite not adressing the OP, intentionally) was the first to say welcome, maybe not as warm and fuzzy as you would have liked, but nonetheless.
Your first post was ahead of mine, chiming in with the 'sheet' name jokes.

Now you are fine graining my comments and conduct. That really is uncalled for.

But I will put more effort in a warm welcome next time a situation like this arises.

mcrews 03-15-2014 09:29 PM

No it really is!
Again, you ignored the poster and stole their thread! Now you have a thread on "behavior"...the thread is about k&n fulter.
Start your own thread if you believe so strongly in your topic. But don't get "righteous " when you ignore the op's topic.
What is interesting here is "your view":
"I do not like what you all did so I'm going to call you out". Yet you (STILL) have ignored the facts of your own behavior. Had you posted on topic to engage the op then you would have some leg to stand on....but you ignored the op and the tread topic...you hijacked op's thread. Where does hijacking a thread fall under YOUR rules of order?

UltArc 03-15-2014 10:42 PM

Welcome OP!

Please, add an introduction thread so we can get to know you a bit!

Make sure you check out the search feature at the top left, it hold endless knowledge. Start working on 100+ Hypermiling / ecodriving tips & tactics for better mpg - EcoModder.com, and thinking about these 65+ Vehicle modifications for better fuel economy - EcoModder.com.

Please note we take "results" with a grain of salt, and love proof, documentation, and knowledge of variables. Hope you still lurk and join us again.

Frank Lee 03-16-2014 02:26 AM

...and look at the "other" K&N thread (some magazine B.S. on an F150) to see where we came from.

RedDevil 03-16-2014 04:50 AM

@mcrews, I get your point but like to point out 2 things:
- Though my post was not relevant to the OP topic, it was to the thread itself and the responses in it.
- You've spent 3 posts in this thread attacking me, which is not relevant to the OP topic. I respond to that and you claim I hijack the thread AGAIN!
I have the right to answer when addressed to, especially when that was accompanied by so much negativity. I respond because you make me do that.

You will not change my views as I know I'm in the right. I don't have the illusion that I can change yours. Nothing good will come from continuing on like this.
If you want to have the last say, go ahead and respond to this post. I end it here.
(unsubscribed)

sarguy01 03-16-2014 10:23 AM

I have a K&N. If someone sends me their used 7th gen Civic paper filter, I'll go test them ABA. I don't feel like wasting 10$ on a filter I don't need.

johnathanf1lm 03-16-2014 11:53 AM

Well i never got to do a a-b test when i had one of these in my rio back when i had it but any gain was canceled out by the 100+ bill to get the map sensor cleaned thanks to the oil from the filter.

sarguy01 03-16-2014 01:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnathanf1lm (Post 415514)
Well i never got to do a a-b test when i had one of these in my rio back when i had it but any gain was canceled out by the 100+ bill to get the map sensor cleaned thanks to the oil from the filter.

Was that with a new filter or after you re-oiled it?


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