Just starting out (looking to build a highway MPG machine - '88-91 honda CRX?)
 

Hey everyone, I just joined today and have a few questions. I will be building an eco car for my monthly trips from NC to NJ and also what ever other long drives I find myself taking. Right now I do them in my CTS-V which gets about 20 MPG on premium and costs $130-$150 to go to NJ and back which sucks when you do it constantly.

Please feel free to chime in and tell me I'm wrong or if there is a better/cheaper way... but here is my plan

I'm think about starting with an '88-91 honda CRX (I dont have my heart set on this so if there is a better choice let me know)

Completely gutting the car to reduce the weight as much as possible.
replace the front bumper and side skirts with flat plastic.
Fabricate flat hub caps
fabricate rear wheel covers
Lower the ride height
"Boat Tail"
Skid Plate
Skinny, taller tires
Seal all seams
Remove power steering

Over time I am also thinking about adding a hydrogen kit. I know it won't increase the MPG's by to much but it will reduce my cost per mile which is the main goal.

Like I said before, any and all advise will be appreciated.

Thank you,

Brian

Looks good except for the hydrogen B.S.

Check out the driving and mod tips at the top of the page.

Why do you say the hydrogen kits are BS?

O M G. Search it here. Look in the Unicorn Corral too (that should be linked at the top of the page too).

Welcome to ecomodder.

Does your car require premium fuel ?

If not, try regular and see how much less MPG you get.
It probably won't be worth the price.

It's a good car as a base for a high-MPG vehicle.

Another one is the original Honda Insight, though they are relatively expensive to buy.

Sounds like an AeroCRX in the making, along the lines of the Aerocivic - Honda Civic modifications for maximum gas mileage - aerocivic.com

If they ever had a lean-burn CRX, try to grab one, or swap the engine for a lean burn Honda engine

We're very skeptical about those around here ...

While you do get a benefit due to better combustion when adding hydrogen to the fuel mixture, making that hydrogen on board is a very, very inefficient process, powered by a very inefficient power source - your engine.

Welcome to the forums!
Just so you know, you don't have to get super fancy with a car to get better mileage. That is to say, driving technique has a lot to do with it. Aero mods are going to help you, sure, but a responsible eco driver in a stock car could probably surpass an irresponsible driver with an aeromodded car in MPGs.

It all depends on what you want out of your vehicle, what your price range is, and what your level of mechanical inclination is. I don't have the time or money to invest into something that needs TLC. I needed something dependable and economic, and so bought the Yaris. Older cars aren't going to have airbags, CD players with MP3 hookups or electric steering (no power steering pump). They also will need a lot of miscellaneous service and are more at risk for needing head gasket or other pain-in-the-*** repair.

Would I say "don't do the things on your laundry list?"
Absolutely not. I would just say, keep these things in mind. For example, I haven't had the time to start aeromodding yet and I'm still satisfied with my improvement in MPGs from my old vehicle.

Hydrogen is definitely exaggerated, by the way. I won't say that the members of this forum are perfect, but I highly doubt you will find a more realistic bunch. If you read up on it in this forum, you'll probably come to realize that seeing a "20% improvement in MPGs" is utter horse****.

Anyway, good luck and again, welcome!

EDIT: As for vehicle suggestions, everyone is in love with the Metro on here, and I can't say it's a bad vehicle for MPGs, but I personally don't trust them in crashes. Anything Toyota or Honda is going to treat you right, and if you get a Honda Civic from the 90s with Lean Burn, you are going to be hitting 40 MPG without much effort.

I prefer crashing motorcycles, myself.

Oh you.

Yes - It has an LS6 Corvette engine.

In theory by switching to regular my MPG's would go up since premium has more additives in it to keep the engine cleaner that means there is less physical gasoline per gallon of fuel.


I'm looking to spend less than $2,000 on a car and go from there.


Is there an engine code for these? (B18, D16, ETc...)

I want a no comprimise car built strictly for max MPG's.
price range on a car is less than $2,000.
I'm mechanically inclined so I'll be doing all the work my self. What ever I buy I actually plan on doing the head gasket on day 1, that way I can see the internals and make sure everything looks strong and clean the valves, valve seats and manifolds to ensure good air flow.

I'll give it a week or two to make sure I bought the right car and to see it an electrical or suspensoin issues pop up before I start cutting and fabricating body panels.

I know I'm not going to see a 20% increase in MPG's but how I see it is if my car runs off of 20% hydrogen that means 1 out of every 5 gallons of gas if free.

Anyway, good luck and again, welcome!

Would a metro be a better start than a CRX?

Welcome to the forum! A CRX is probably a better place to start for a highway machine (better stock aero = fewer custom mods needed).

You should dive into some of the HHO threads here - your understanding of it is a bit shaky (Frank wouldn't have worded that quite as kindly!).

Other than HHO, looks like a solid plan for an MPG machine.

Might want to read up on that too. One of the "additives" in premium is higher octane, which should let your engine run more aggressive timing, which would result in more power & fuel economy. On regular gas, the computer will pull the timing back to prevent pre-ignition/detonation, so you get less bang. Might save money though. Hard to say without controlled testing.

If you have the skills and time for a swap, I would consider the engine from a sixth gen HX Civic (D16Y5), married to the tranny from a fifth gen VX Civic. The sixth gen is OBD2 and will support aftermarket onboard computers such as Ultra Gauge, which will be one of the best "mods" you ever do. The HX engines are more common and probably more often have lower mileage. And the HX engine has other features (two O2 sensors and EGR, I think) not on the older VX engines. But the VX tranny has taller gearing, though the HX is quite good too. The fourth gen HF Civic had the tallest, but its rare and I'm not sure it mates-up with the later Civics (?). For the engine, make sure you get the Federal version, because lean burn was not allowed in Cali and the Cali versions therefore don't have it.

Good luck! Please keep EM posted with your progress. We love photos!

If you can't find a crx hf then you might find a 92-95 civic vx for $2000 then spend 50 bucks on an mpguino. If you drive 60 - 65 mph and keep it in leanburn as much as possible you wil get good highway mileage.
92-93 vx had only drivers airbag. 94-95 models had both .

I found a few places online that rebuild D16Y5's and sell them with a 3 year warranty for less than a grand but no harness. is there anywhere besides a junk yard I could find a reasonably priced harness and ECU? It would be a homerun if I could find a 92-96 VX with a blown motor for cheap and do this swap but I dont want to try and fuss around in a junk yard removing a dry rotted harness from a totaled car in july/august heat.

ECUs are available on eBay sometimes, but avoid the auto trans ECUs and the Cali manuals, which each have their own ECU codes. In my notes from when I was researching a similar question I have the Fed Civic HX manual ECU code as P2N-A22. But double check before any purchase. Also, look up H-Auto for parts. I think they do sales online too. Look them up. Have you seen this car? http://ecomodder.com/forum/showthrea...ral-21498.html It recently sold here on EM. Contact the seller?

Find a CRX HF.. Lightest bodystyle, best highway gearing trans and if running it already has the goods to get good mpg on the highway...

Then later down the road do a D15Z1 or D16Y5 swap for better drivability and even more mpg.. Kinda the best of both worlds..

So I'm having a heck of a time finding a CRX HF within a reasonable distance to me and the ones that I have found everyone wants $6,000 or more which is insane so here's my new plan.

1) find a CRX with a blown motor preferably under $1,000

2) Buy a CRX HF trans and a D16Y5. I have found both of these readily available online WITH warranties. I could have the pair shipped to my house for under $2,000

3) Purchase the wiring harness and ECU $?

Does all this sound as easy as it seems? Will I run into any mounting issues where I would need custom fabrication or additional mounting brackets? I have swapped many motors but most were all small block chevys, this will only be my 2nd honda swap. If all goes well I should have a CRX at 60mpg's with zero miles on the motor and trans which will be under a one year warranty for around $4,000.

You can DIY on the harnesses and such, or there are several retailers that can help. For more $$, of course. I think the guys at Rywire : can get you a wiring harness, but it does come at a cost.

The HF transmission (be sure it's an HF one, the 88-91 CRX/Civic transmissions are tough to tell apart from the outside!) and the CRX chassis are built to go together. The trans should bolt up to any D-series engine as far as I know. I'm not sure if the mounts on the Y5 are the same as the ones on the A6/etc. If so, then you're golden.

The drive axles in the HF, and the hubs and brakes, are different from the other CRXes. They're lighter-duty and lighter-weight. I think the regular axles will plug into the HF trans, but I am not certain. If they do, then use whatever axles go with the chassis (and therefore hubs and brakes) of the car you get.

The guys at CRX Community Forum • Index page have a lot of knowledge of these cars. You could do worse than looking around there for a while.

-soD

This has been a point of confusion for me: I have seen claims online that the pre-1992 D-series engines did not have hydraulic transmissions, and I have seen it claimed that they did. Which is it?

All I know is that every CRX originally came from the factory with a cable-operated clutch. I don't know if that was also true for the other Civic-based cars.

-soD

the crx is the way to go, great milage and handles like a go cart. ive had at least 12 hondas. any civic/crx questions let me know if i can help these might interest you. TREMENDOUS MILEAGE HONDA
Crx hf 50mpg
Honda : CRX HF in Honda | eBay Motors
1991 Honda Civic Crx
1990 Honda CRX HF - Rust Free! No Good Offer Refused!!!
1990 Honda CRX HF - Rust Free! No Good Offer Refused!!!

My '91 Civic has a cable clutch.

from 1988-2000 any d series engine and trans will go together, you will possibly have to use the correct clutch and fly wheel to make them work. also 1988-1991 had different engine and trans mounting points in the engine bay, but if you have the mounts for the car you are using, the d series engine and transmissions have all the same bolt holes so you can put any 88-00 engine/trans into it.

1988-1991 cars had cable operated clutches, 1992 and on had hydraulic clutches. this is a kit that allows you to put a hydraulic trans into a cable style car; Hasport D/B/H/K-series Hydro Transmission Lever Assembly 88-91 Honda Civic/CRX - JDM Honda Parts USA - JHPUSA. it depends on how much wrench and junk yard time you want to put into it.

the d-series engines are great way to go because with very little variation all the mounting holes on blocks and trans are the same. i took a TBI obd0 1991 civic hatch, put a obd 1 ecu in it to run a mid 90's MPFI obd 1 vtec engine with an ebay aluminum flywheel and an ebay header, and a 1998 intake manifold. mix and match is the name of the game.

What would one be willing to pay for a '90hf with a D15Z1/HF trans with a new front end and new red paint job?

I've come across some good deals lately and am gonna rebuild a car much like the one in my build thread.. This car will not have rear interior but will look good on the outside.. I don't have to hunt the parts down since they've all kinda fell in my lap and this build should go ALOT quicker than the last one..

hard to say on the price. 2000 + or - depending on the mileage on the engine and transmission, since you could build a crx from a shell with a jdm engine and trans for not much more.the d15z1 engine employs vtec (variable valve timing) and lean burn, both of which need a specific ecu and wiring that the hf didn't have originally which could be added to make the extra features functional. any one have some better info?

Ill probably have double that in my swap Im doing now.. Granted, that everything is new (0miles) and the car will be great when on the road.. In my area people try to sell stock Si's with rust and a blown headgasket for $2500.

I was really curious what this car sold for since it would be the only real comparison..

http://ecomodder.com/forum/showthrea...ral-21498.html


Sorry to send the thread off track but I spent almost 1.5years to find a decent D15Z1 and hf trans in my area-ish along with all the other necessities to make my first decent car.. Now I have ALL the parts for the second one and I don't plan to keep it...

Just so I can contribute...










This is correct. All D-series transmissions went to a hydraulic slave cylinder clutch in 1992-2000.

Since most all D-series engines are the same you will need the engine mounts to fit the chassis. The CRX chassis code is "ED" but the 88-91 civic "EF" will also work. The 92-95 civic is referred to as an "EG" and the 96-2000 is "EK". The engine mounts will be different and will not work. The biggest trick to making the mounts work is to make sure and get the hard metal mount that bolts directly to the block on the timing belt side. You'll also wind up trimming the timing belt cover to make it work.. No biggie..

The major differences in the HF is the lighter hubs which do use smaller axles. The transmission side of the axle is the same on all D-series transmissions but again you need axles to fit the chassis.

I thought I might run into an issue with using the D15Z1 flywheel and a CRX Si clutch. But honda did it again and turns out all the disc diameters are 210mm..

Minus the wiring, there is nothing really needed to be customized for this swap.. Its a basic plug and play kind of deal. Now ask me why I've taken almost 2 years on mine and Im not quite sure I could answer you.. lol.. Finding all these parts and the car is gonna be quite the task.. From my own experience, try not to buy an empty shell.. You'll pretty much get nickle and dimed to get all the parts required. In NC. If youre gonna look for a decent looking car expect to pay about $2500 range.. As long as the quarter panels are dent and rust free you'll be set.

Also take note of the differences in year models... Some of it may or may not be important to you..

CRX Community Forum • View topic - 88-91 USDM Crx Differences


Pay attention to the weights and the mounting of the seatbelts...
The 88 CRX is kind of a black sheep in many areas..

I personally wanted a 90-91 Si because of the sunroof and 4wheel disc brakes and the interior looks better than the 88-89 IMO..


Good luck hunting! If I put my 3rd CRX together in time maybe I can sell it to ya! lol...

And to add... Just because Im trying to sell one.. lol.. You CAN put a 92-2000 hydraulic clutch transmission in a CRX... But the cost of doing this is very ineffective IMO.. There are companies out there that make the hardware to do this though....

http://hasport.com/store/index.php/m...-ef/efdhc.html

I wouldn't feel right spending more then $3,500 on car thats over 20 years old. I have the time, patience and mechanical skills to buy one with a blown motor and replace everything myself for around $3,000. And not to say the paint job isn't important but I'll be doing body modifications so when I'm done it will have to be painted anyway.

There are differences. At least some of the 88s had a different spline count on the input shaft of the transmission. So the clutch disk has to match that. I have heard rumors of some sort of diameter difference between the 88-89 and the 90-91 cars, but I haven't actually done research into it. I was only interested in my 1990 at the time.

-soD

Make sure you get the 49 state version CRX HF and not the California one.

or just anty-up for a VX and be done with it

That'd be too easy... :rolleyes: lol...



Good luck finding a car and putting the pieces together.. I know I looked for what seemed like forever before I ever found a decent deal on the swap and the car... Interior and cancer are gonna be your two worst parts of finding a decent one.

Welcome

You probably can get 8-10 mpg better if you drive like you have an eggshell under your rt foot and keep your speed to 55 mph. Take a mile to get up to speed. If your car is a manual get it in top gear as soon as you can bordering on lugging the engine probably with a v8 you can't hardly lug the engine just keep it to 1500 or 1700.

I can get 18 mpg in a loaded econoline doing exactly that. I can get 26 mpg in a 99 windstar with a stock drivetrain and high mileage. Both probably have 2x or more aero drag than your small car.

If you only use light throttle cheaper fuel will not be a detriment. The cylinders are choked off and don't fill up at high pressure like they do with the throttle valves open.

I bought a VW Diesel for less than 2000. In the two years that I have owned it I have put on a fan belt, a set of tires and a fuel line. I've done some aero work and am getting about 54 mpg. I am in top gear before 35 mostly. The engine has amazing low end pulling power. You can let out the clutch in first gear and roll away no throttle needed. Easy to do that with a 300 hp v8. It starts basically instantly 3 seasons a year. In winter it likes to be plugged in for an hour.

Do the math on converting water into its separate components It takes more energy to do the electrolysis than the energy you get out of it.

You can do all the ecomodding you can with your Cadillac STS-V and it will still get less gas mileage that a smaller car. For gas mileage its hard to beat a TDI.

Tony has a point. But still your car isn't that large and it is yours and paid for. It probably is loaded with passive safety features that a cheap little used car doesn't have.

I forgot to mention, I got better rolling once I started pumping my tires harder. I started by going to the max side wall pressure.

I know It's been a while since I've posted but I finally got the V sold and bought my CRX. I got a 1990 SI with 180,000 on the clock for $1,000. It needs a little TLC up front before I get into eco and aero modding it. I'll be keeping everyone posted on what mods I do and what kind of gains I get out of them but so far I haven't had it long enough to even get a baseline out of it.