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TDFbound 11-02-2020 08:48 AM

Large Family Hauler Ideas? 35+ MPG Wanted
 
So my wife and I have realized that we really love long road trips- even with three kids and a dog and all the ancillary bits and pieces. We’re in a 2007 Toyota Sienna fwd van, maybe 25 mpg. I got spoiled in my Civic VX being able to drive literally coast to coast for under $150. What’s the best off-the-shelf large family hauler that can come closest to those numbers? I’ve got a feeling it doesn’t exist. My first thoughts are to do some interesting mods to an E-350... What example or ideas have you guys got for comfortably and cheaply scooting around America’s backroads?

RedDevil 11-02-2020 11:10 AM

Depends on the dog I guess.
If you allow it on a seat maybe a Honda FR-V?

https://www.autoscout24.nl/assets/au...fr-v-l-01.webp
Seats 6 in 2 rows of 3, and the trunk space is not too small while the overall dimensions are still manageable.

https://7zitplaatsen.nl/7zitplaatsen...plaatsen-1.jpg

Same for the Fiat Multipla, but that one has its own unique challenges. Like you need to avoid large reflective surfaces.

https://car-anwb.akamaized.net/aas-a...8&imheight=400

aardvarcus 11-02-2020 11:11 AM

The crux of your question is whether 2 in the front and three in the middle is "comfortable" or if a third row is needed. The first scenario has the dog in a carrier in the open cargo area (not a trunk).

Secondly, how much gear are you packing, both in weight and volume. Cargo carriers that go in a hitch carry volume well, but would make the steering light if loaded heavy.

Lastly is this just a pavement pounder, or are gravel/dirt roads in the mix?

TDFbound 11-02-2020 06:04 PM

I like the idea of a third row to spread the kids out. Probably not taking a ton of luggage or anything, we can usually fit the whole family’s stuff for at least a few nights in a couple duffle bags. We have a dog but don’t usually take it traveling so I don’t want to totally base a decision on that either. We don’t go off-roading, but dirt and gravel roads like midwestern or southwest farm roads are absolutely a thing. I tend to stay off them when they’re soft and wet.

aardvarcus 11-02-2020 07:43 PM

Based on that, for a turnkey deal a 2021 Sienna Hybrid (claims 36mpg) is the only thing that comes to my mind right off, but for the cost I would suggest modifying your existing van a bit and use it.

redpoint5 11-02-2020 09:02 PM

Pacifica plug-in? Still qualifies for the full $7,500 federal tax credit.

freebeard 11-02-2020 11:56 PM

Quote:

Large Family Hauler Ideas? 35+ MPG Wanted
.... We’re in a 2007 Toyota Sienna fwd van, maybe 25 mpg.
You're almost there!

The best way to get to the goal would be a pusher trailer that lowers the Cd. With a teardrop dog house. :)

Comfortable on America's back roads? Motels or camping?

M_a_t_t 11-03-2020 12:21 AM

I agree with modifying the sienna. Whatever mods you can do to an e350 you should be able to do to the toyota. Plus the potential price difference (assuming you sell the sienna and buy the replacement) means the break even point might be waayyyy out there to make it worth it.

Ecky 11-03-2020 07:34 AM

A Prius V is a bit on the small side but could meet your requirements.

It probably won't save you anything in repairs, but BMW makes a 3 and a 5 series wagon with a TDI, and I want to say it's available with a 6(?) speed manual. Should be good for better than 40mpg on the highway if driven gently.

Vman455 11-03-2020 08:52 AM

Assuming I-80 and today's average of $2.12/gallon, you'll need a vehicle that gets 41mpg to reach the goal of coast-to-coast on $150. There isn't a minivan or SUV that will do that yet unless you go electric. Current minivans aren't much better than your 2007; IIRC the Odyssey and Pacifica are rated 28mpg highway. But the 2021 Sienna will be significantly better, as someone else mentioned, and the Prius V if you're willing to live with something smaller.

cRiPpLe_rOoStEr 11-03-2020 10:19 AM

If it was me I'd try to adapt a Diesel engine into a Kombi :D
https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-iIATgwcg4...ro-direito.jpg
https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-9q-E5_tzh...o-esquerdo.jpg


Quote:

Originally Posted by M_a_t_t (Post 635499)
Whatever mods you can do to an e350 you should be able to do to the toyota.

Not sure how easy it would be to swap the differential of the Sienna as it is for a traditional RWD rig, but it's still worth to also keep an eye for the low-hanging fruit. And since it's smaller, most likely more aerodynamic, the Sienna seems to be a good platform for that project anyway.

M_a_t_t 11-03-2020 10:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cRiPpLe_rOoStEr (Post 635536)
Not sure how easy it would be to swap the differential of the Sienna as it is for a traditional RWD rig, but it's still worth to also keep an eye for the low-hanging fruit. And since it's smaller, most likely more aerodynamic, the Sienna seems to be a good platform for that project anyway.

You might be able to mod the drivetrain a little easier, but you will be starting so much lower with an e350 (rated 12/16MPG) than the sienna.

If you want a traditional rwd van I might suggest an Astro. Seats 7 or 8 (captain chair vs benches). 5500lb towing capacity. Can swap in a manual transmission from a truck. Re-gearing is easier. I averaged ~18mpg in town with my 95 in stock setup (auto trans).

Ecky 11-03-2020 11:18 AM

1 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Vman455 (Post 635520)
Assuming I-80 and today's average of $2.12/gallon, you'll need a vehicle that gets 41mpg to reach the goal of coast-to-coast on $150. There isn't a minivan or SUV that will do that yet unless you go electric. Current minivans aren't much better than your 2007; IIRC the Odyssey and Pacifica are rated 28mpg highway. But the 2021 Sienna will be significantly better, as someone else mentioned, and the Prius V if you're willing to live with something smaller.

Some of Toyota's offerings come darn close, and could probably realistically get 41+ highway.

funkhoss 11-03-2020 01:13 PM

I'm kinda partial to Caprice wagons, personally. :D

A Caprice/Roadmaster wagon, with the highest gears you can find to put in it (2.28 and 2.14 are easily swappable), aero mods, LRR tires, and engine tuning (software is free, all you need to buy is the cable) should get you easily over 30 MPG highway, approaching 35 MPG. And, do it pretty cheaply, easily, and reliably.

Add a manual trans and EOC, and you can consistently get 40+ MPG. Trust me, I know. :thumbup:

-Funkhoss

freebeard 11-03-2020 02:32 PM

I can see the appeal:

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/b4/ff...562f552352.jpg
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/b4/ff...562f552352.jpg

redpoint5 11-03-2020 07:51 PM

Prius Limo!

I keep thinking if I have more children I'll get something with privacy glass.

https://i.imgur.com/uS8jz01.jpg

You could always do a Prius with a hitch mounted box, or pull a small trailer.

https://data.priuschat.com/avatars/l...jpg?1378238142

freebeard 11-03-2020 08:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by redpoint5
I keep thinking if I have more children I'll get something with privacy glass.

https://i.imgur.com/nOLih.jpg

Should i do this with my Metro?

redpoint5 11-05-2020 06:52 PM

1 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by aardvarcus (Post 635489)
Based on that, for a turnkey deal a 2021 Sienna Hybrid (claims 36mpg) is the only thing that comes to my mind right off, but for the cost I would suggest modifying your existing van a bit and use it.

I just watched the Alex Dykes video and hadn't been aware of how crazy efficient that new Sienna is. Seems like a better option than that Pacifica I mentioned unless the 30 EV miles would come in handy for daily trips.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a_o7a_6SqmM

Quote:

Originally Posted by freebeard (Post 635612)

Should i do this with my Metro?

Hey, looks like that one was hauling Electrathon cars.

I recently dove into the junk stored in the barn and found the frame of the car we built for the PGE races. Still would love to do something with it one day if I can get a Round Tuit.

https://ecomodder.com/forum/attachme...1&d=1604620593

That bent frame member is from hitting a car that was parked in the center of the race course. You'd think it nearly impossible to hit a parked car with the rear of the EV, but those races were hairy. Someone clips the car and it sends you spinning into the infield.

Our steering mechanism was crude and worked side-to-side rather than a turning wheel. The geometry made for steering that was more digital than progressive. With just a single bicycle brake on the rear rim, qualifying the car was part miracle, and part shenanigans. During one race the plate holding the brake mechanism broke off. I had to radio the driver to inform that not only would the brakes not work, but using them would probably tear up the spokes.

No wonder the program got cancelled, but things were way more fun back when they were way less safe.

freebeard 11-05-2020 09:04 PM

Quote:

Hey, looks like that one was hauling Electrathon cars.
What is more, I understand that was Dave Cloud and his car. The person on the left is my brother. He has passed on, too.

https://i.imgur.com/VMpvNwE.jpg

Another picture with him in it.

cRiPpLe_rOoStEr 11-05-2020 11:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by freebeard (Post 635612)
Should i do this with my Metro?

If you want to turn it into a side-loading hearse... :D

Hersbird 11-07-2020 12:16 AM

I would bet the 2009-2015 Q7 with the 3.0 TDI would get 30 mpg driven reasonably. Probably about $23,000 used but just off the buyback with a new 4 year warranty on most parts. Under $20,000 if it's been off the buyback for some of that 4 years already. Depending on where you are diesel might be more or less than unleaded, here it's a little less. It may cost $55 to fill up from empty around here but once full will go over 700 miles before needing more. Your kids won't last that long.

I bought a 2012 Touareg over a year ago and like it. Touareg doesn't have the 3rd row of the stretched Q7. That warranty has come in handy though with the dealer doing probably $5000 of work on it. All new injectors and a new adblue pump. We also have a 2011 Chrysler minivan which does ride nice but not the level of the Touareg. The van we can massage a 28 mpg tank out of if you drive 55, but the Touareg will do 30 mpg at 70 and diesel costs $.20 less a gallon. At 55 I bet it goes more like 33.

I bet a Pacifica hybrid would rock too. They run the atkins cycle on the 3.6 and have better aero than my 2011. Add in the electric and hybrid and I bet over 30 mpg is pretty possible in those.

I wouldn't really consider anything much smaller than a Q7 comfortable for a long trip with 6 and a dog. Maybe that's just me.

cRiPpLe_rOoStEr 11-07-2020 12:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hersbird (Post 635811)
I would bet the 2009-2015 Q7 with the 3.0 TDI would get 30 mpg driven reasonably.

I'd take it with a grain of salt, not to mention its engine is too complex. Sure its aerodynamics are better than the Cummins-powered '07 F-250 I drove a couple of times, which might offset any negative impact of the Q7 having an automatic transmission while the F-250 had a manual.

On a sidenote, hadn't it been for cost, complexity and emissions compliance in order to keep it road-legal, a Cummins swap into some large luxury SUV would be tempting...

Hersbird 11-07-2020 12:30 PM

I didn't know about the 2021 Sienna until the above posting. That is the ticket right there. That $32k version will ultimately be available at $30k or a little under with discounts and of course probably around $15k used in 2026.

Istas 12-31-2020 05:12 PM

My roommate just got an automatic 2017 VW Golf Alltrack; it seats 5 and also has enough room behind the second row of seats for even a big dog. Preliminary testing seems to indicate it gets around 35mpg at around 60mph.

Maybe the other Golf wagons would be worth taking a look at? Dropping the AWD (of the Alltrack) would probably help efficiency.

veloman 12-31-2020 06:01 PM

I towed a 4x8 utility trailer with 1500lbs in it, AC on, 60mph highway, about 40mpg. (37mpg one way loaded, 48mpg the other way with empty trailer).

You can can put the family and dog in the car, and your stuff in the small trailer. Easy to do aero mods on the trailer for even better mpg.

You might even get away with just a hitch cargo carrier instead of a trailer.

EcoVan 12-31-2020 06:55 PM

Biggest vehicle and best mileage of any I have seen.
 
I have a 2017 Chevy Express full size with the 2.8 diesel we use for boiler service. With our standard vehicle weight around 7500 lbs ( about 2500 lbs of equipment on board) we get about 20 city and between 30 and 33.3 highway with A/C on at about 68 mph. 33 can be had with careful driving and some drafting behind semis. The 8 speed trans won't go into high gear until about 66mph, so you have to moving this speed. We've done no mods at all, and there is lots of room for improvement for aero efficiency ( bottom of vehicle is the usual mess, for instance). The engine produces just as much torque at 1500 rpm as the biggest gas v-8 at 3500 rpm so, it has plenty of grunt to get all that weight moving. This could give you plenty of room (up to 9 passengers) and a tank driving range ( standard 33 gal tank) of around 1000 miles. The "Diesel Place" Forum has some more info on this combo. These engine is also available in the Colorado/ Canyon SUV with similiar fuel economy. These other 2 don't have the Allison 8 speed trans the van does.

cRiPpLe_rOoStEr 01-01-2021 12:09 AM

It did surprise me at first when GM fitted that engine to the full-size vans. On a sidenote, even though GM is retreating from Thailand which was the manufacturing hub for this engine, IIRC it's still being made in Brazil and there are also marine versions made in Italy.

PressEnter[] 01-01-2021 09:09 AM

VW Tiguan will easily do 35 mpg on the highway. Available with a 3rd row.

Piotrsko 01-01-2021 09:11 AM

Diesel tig does even better

PressEnter[] 01-01-2021 09:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Piotrsko (Post 639719)
Diesel tig does even better

Sadly we only get one engine option in the US :(

The Other Andy 01-05-2021 10:56 PM

I'm surprised a Buick Regal Tour X hasn't been mentioned. Official rating is only 29hwy, but just about every GM I've ever encountered could easily best its official rating.

And unlike some mentioned here, the Tour X is actually fairly large.
https://www.theintelligentdriver.com...4-1024x768.jpg

I know the Nissan Rogue is actually pretty frugal, too. A rental I had a few years back was showing me 40mpg (instrument panel) after an easy jaunt down a California freeway and back. :eek:

That is probably the biggest compact SUV, too.

01FordCrew 01-16-2021 09:03 PM

Yep! Same question, Same cars,
 
I also have a 07 Sienna and a 02 E350. we travel long distances and take everything except the kitchen sink... yet! we found away to help our fuel economy and haul lots of stuff, introducing 1 wheel trailer with Kammback Profile. you can check out my other Post for fuel ecomony gains. Needless to say there are some drawbacks. My trailer is heavy weighing in at 500 Lbs empty and that encourages oversteer. If we traveled lighter we'd save fuel as well, but we usually stay a Month and we are Maxed out for weight and space(air Bags are deployed to keep the backend out of the weeds)

Isaac Zachary 01-17-2021 11:32 AM

My thoughts would be a 2.8L diesel Chevy/GMC if you want newer, or I've heard a few claim the got lower 30's in the supercharged Toyota Previas.

cRiPpLe_rOoStEr 01-19-2021 12:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Isaac Zachary (Post 640868)
My thoughts would be a 2.8L diesel Chevy/GMC if you want newer

Taking it to 35 MPG in an American full-size van would be quite challenging, but it's my favorite engine in its class.

freebeard 01-19-2021 12:35 AM

Recent developments reported in the Aerodynamics subforum suggest flaps canted inward 15 degrees can net a 10% improvement. Then they argue about whether that's 5% in gas mileage. :)

That's only ~1.5mpg on 30. :(

mattrod 01-28-2021 02:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Other Andy (Post 639987)
I'm surprised a Buick Regal Tour X hasn't been mentioned. Official rating is only 29hwy, but just about every GM I've ever encountered could easily best its official rating.

And unlike some mentioned here, the Tour X is actually fairly large.
https://www.theintelligentdriver.com...4-1024x768.jpg

I know the Nissan Rogue is actually pretty frugal, too. A rental I had a few years back was showing me 40mpg (instrument panel) after an easy jaunt down a California freeway and back. :eek:

That is probably the biggest compact SUV, too.

I like the body shape of the Tour X.

maanma 08-11-2021 06:03 AM

Renault (Grand) Espace 4 with diesel engine 1.9 dCi 130 or 2.0 dCi 150. If 2.0 dCi 150 Automat then control gear box oil change (should be done before 110 000 miles) which does not belong service plan. There is two expensive problems worth of mention: electrical hand brake ja dci high pressure pump break after 200 000 miles. British 36 / 37 mpg

maanma 08-11-2021 06:08 AM

WV Caddy Life / Family is also an option. If primary use is for highway do not buy with small engine.

Isaac Zachary 08-11-2021 03:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maanma (Post 654005)
If primary use is for highway do not buy with small engine.

Just curious, what is your reasoning for needing a bigger engine for highway use?

maanma 08-12-2021 02:01 AM

Many small engines go out of optimal range in highway speeds.

Worst ever experience is diesel 1.5 dci 18 mpg of Renault kangoo running on 3400 rpm at 80 mph.

Peugeot 107 (with city optimized Toyota KR1-FE 1.0 gasoline) does 31-33 mpg at 75mph. That is 134-125 mpg / seat. Compared to Renault Grand Espace 3 which will go 181 mpg / seat at 80 mph.


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