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-   -   Looks like my poor mans Hybrid just might have merit! (https://ecomodder.com/forum/showthread.php/looks-like-my-poor-mans-hybrid-just-might-2233.html)

Nerys 05-08-2008 07:43 PM

Looks like my poor mans Hybrid just might have merit!
 
I came up with an interesting idea a few months back. I saw a voyager with AWD and though HUH did not know it came like that.

I thought it might be neat to PUT the AWD rear axles in my voyager but not the T case IE add in an electric motor with a simple relay on off switch to boost MPG.

Well it looks like others are thinking the same thing and even have prototypes built!!!

http://tinyurl.com/4dhyhk

Very cool! and retrofitable to ANY FWD car!

SVOboy 05-08-2008 07:45 PM

Sounds pretty sweet...are you willing to spend the money though?

Nerys 05-08-2008 08:02 PM

$3300 for a kit? NO (plus its damned ugly :-) $400-$500 to do it myself as planned using the AWD axle YES. This just gives me a little extra incentive that if a company is willing to do the R&D to make it happen then that tells me the idea has at least some merit.

JohnnyGrey 05-08-2008 10:49 PM

Simple relay isn't going to cut it. You'll need a specialized control system for this. The MPG increase comes from:

1. Regenerative braking
2. Being able to move without the engine running

MetroMPG 05-09-2008 12:00 AM

The idea (electrically driven rear axles in FWD car) comes up a lot, but I've yet to see anyone implement it, DIY.

I did speak to a guy who did it for fun with an old Tercel 4wd wagon, but it was basically a science project in a junkyard car; I don't think he ever drove it on the road.

JG's right: you'd need much more than a relay. Don't forget batteries too! Either heavy and bulky (lead acid) or super expensive (Lithium).

cfg83 05-09-2008 02:17 AM

Frank -

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frank Lee (Post 24462)
Yet another awesome thing about Tempos: there was an AWD version and it would be SO EASY to power the rear wheels of a FWD model by getting one or two of those hubs!

Ooooooh, and you got the skillzzz to do it!

I really like this because I am "pro-retro-fit". There's too many normal cars out there that could be improved. But the $3300 price tag is steep.

Frank, do you think you could you make this up yourself from your own "kit O'parts"?

Details :

http://www.poulsenhybrid.com/_images//AIOtmp2.gif

CarloSW2

Nerys 05-09-2008 05:27 AM

No a relay is enough. If I do a 72v system I am thinking 3 speed. 24v 48v 72v 3 buttons.

Press button one when maxed press button 2 when maxed press button 3. IF it has enough torque screw all that and just go 72v from the get go. One button.

I am not looking to make an electric car. I have NO expectation of being able to MOVE a 3700 pound minivan on a junkyard EV motor alone. I want to "assist" the ICE enough to dramatically increase fuel economy. Thats all. MAYBE even enough to let me FAS for miles at a time on nice level or sloping terrain at cruise speed. Who Knows :-)

No controllers no nothing. Just "jack" in the power and GO. the "controller adjustment" is the piece of carbon sitting in the drivers seat with his foot on the accelerator :-) IE I adjust the ICE throttle as needed.

I am thinking sickeningly simple here. AWD rear axle DIRECT DRIVE to the Electric Motor.

Motor connected directly to the batteries simple "on/off" via the button controlled relay. Thats it. Heck the drive wires would only need to be 3 feet long as I would put the batteries in the back cargo area directly above where the rear axle is.

I can get junkyard WORKING car batteries for $18 a pop. So $108 in batteries $125 for the axle assembly (complete) and whatever for the EV motor hopefully another junkyard or freebie find. I already have a good 60amp continuous charger on hand. And whatever that beast of a relay is going to cost. the MOMENT I have to think about "controllers" this project is a non starter. I do not have that kind of money.

No Regen. No Pure EV. etc..

IF and ONLY if it proves itself functional THEN I can look into better quality batteries.

Eventually if the MPG gain is sufficient to warrant it I want to go NIMH powered. IF I can figure out a feasible way to CHARGE it I can build a 30amp hour 72volt nimh pack for $900 - Every time I have an extra $300 I can add another 10 amp hours to the pack.

Lithium is not an option for me. Far to expensive Far to unreliable Far to wasteful and far to short lived relative to there cost.

But first I go the $108 junkyard pack path to see if it will even work well enough to be worth the effort. I am seriously going to attempt to do this over the summer. Just got to find a motor :-)

i_am_socket 05-09-2008 09:53 AM

Cool idea! That kit would be a bit more sexy if you used wheel skirts instead of just an arm.

I kinda miss my Tempo. You never forget your first ;-)

JohnnyGrey 05-09-2008 10:37 AM

Your idea would be more like half car, half EV, not so much a hybrid. A few points to consider...

1. When the motor is assisting the ICE, it's pushing it down into a less efficient part of the BSFC map. You'll be getting considerably less power from the ICE, but it will only be using a little less fuel.

2. Selectively switching battery banks to get different voltages will discharge them at different rates, and has the potential to even reverse charge them!

I would rather see a well-engineered design than you blowing money and time only to half-ass it and give up after disappointing results.

Remember the Accord Hybrid. Same V6 as the regular Accord (not to mention millions in R&D), just with motors added. Economy was worse than the 4cyl version.

Jetta90GL 05-11-2008 12:07 AM

I had an idea awhile ago for an electric motor assist. Rather than add another drive axle I thought of just adding a motor to the engine serpentine belt of my truck. Or on a front wheel drive transverse engine have a long shaft and put the motor over the transmission. It would probably have to be a separate stronger belt and pulley.

bhazard 05-11-2008 12:53 AM

What happens when you are moving without using the electric motor? Are you gonna have some sort of clutch on it so the back wheels dont turn it?

How about an alternator being turned by the wheels too so you can get some recharging when youre not using the motor.

Sounds like something that would really be useful in stop-and-go traffic.

Nerys 05-11-2008 12:59 AM

I am not sure. My original idea was a free wheel like on a bicycle. IE spins freely when no force is applied. I figure "heavy duty" version of that must exist??

getnpsi 05-26-2008 06:35 PM

Ii would love to put an awd axle into my aspire and run a 20hp motor or so. Get the car up to speed, shut off engine or even idle the thing and that would net over 80mpg easy. Scangauges in heavy trucks idling coasting in N say they are getting over 50 mpg over 30 mph. I dont think you'd need all the batteries of a full replacement as you arent using it from a dead stop like OEM hybrids do. Supplementation I think is an angle not many are really considering. Some people with full electric conversions are just charging the batteries and running them down, with no way to recoup power as they drive. You can always just charge your stuff overnight and drain independant of your ICE.

Nerys 05-26-2008 06:51 PM

Exactly. Two completely independent system. To the ice it would be like I am suddenly going downhill or something so I could "let off" the gas a bit as the E motor took up some of the drain.

When I get home or get to work I "plug in" to recharge the batteries.

as for offset draining. No I would always be using "all" of the batteries just in different variations of parallel and series connections.

For example lets say I have 6 batteries. Thats 72v. if there 6 in series. what if I do 2 sets of 3 in series and run those sets parallel. Now I have a 36v pack with twice the amps IE still using ALL the batteries IE still evenly discharging them.

I do not care if I only get a 10mpg boost. I do not care if I get NO mpg boost. the ideal is to see if it WORKS at all at a price that can fit in my nearly non existent budget. Thats why It has to be dead simple I can NOT afford a "controller". as soon as one becomes mandatory this project becomes a non starter. I just do not have the cash. If I had that kind of cash lying around I would not be so concerned about fuel economy :-)

If it works at all then the idea has merit THEN I can safely spend some serious cash to making it work well. 3-4 hundred dollars I can afford on a "seat of the pants test" 3 grand I can not.

bennelson 05-27-2008 10:13 AM

I was thinking that converting an all-wheel drive vehicle to engine powers the front - electric powers the rear, could work well.

I don't know enough about how four-wheel drive systems work to know all the specifics of actually doing it.

A "relay" to control the electric motor is called a contactor. You can have multiple contactors that will switch a pack of batteries so that all batteries are used at the same time, but rigged either in parralel or serial. All batteries drain at the same rate this way, but you can make the motor go a couple of speeds. This is a very old-school way of doing it, and it makes loud "clicks" as the contactors turn on and off. Check out a Commuta-Car/Citi-Car to see how those work.

There are a lot of Geo Trackers out there that seem like they would be a good vehicle to experiment on for this type of a project.

I would simply control both the motor and engine manually. Run on electric only around town, then turn on the engine for highway driving.

The biggest downside is that you are carrying the weight of the engine and motor and batteries at all times.

Nerys 05-27-2008 10:56 AM

thats ok bennelson. So does the Prius :-) you know what would be REALLY funny. I mean hilarious funny in a very serious way? If I managed to get 50mpg with my junkyard 96 voyager with a jerry rigged awd electric conversion and no electronics. I think IF this works that well and IF enough of us did it consumers would start to have some serious questions for the likes of toyota GM and other auto makers.

I'm not holding my breath. If I get 40mpg I will be tickled pink. If I get 35mpg it will have been well worth it.

Even at 35mpg this would save me just shy of $84 a month. That means it would pay for itself inside of 5 or 6 months.!! Lets see a prius pay back like that. At 40mpg it would save me $106 a month paying for itself in 4 months.

If I somehow manage 50mpg it would save me $138 a month. Thats $1656.00 in savings PER YEAR for a $400-$500 investment. So yeah I really really hope it works :-) Even if I have to replace the batteries once a YEAR it will still pay for itself almost triple every year.

also it does not matter how the FWD/4WD works bennelson if your car is already FWD only. IE you change nothing except the rear axle. You do not even need the T-Case. If you already have a T-Case IE already have AWD I am not sure how it would go since you would now be REMOVING a drive shaft to connect the EV motor. When I flip a shaft on my cherokee once it LEAKED fluid when I removed the rear yoke (the part of the shaft that goes into the T Case) so something would have to be done with that.

Since I am already FWD only I do not have a T-Case at all to deal with. I am just going to yank the entire rear axle assembly from an AWD voyager once I find one springs and all and just bolt it on. Mount the EV motor and away I go. (in theory :-) hehe

Just got to find a motor :-)

NoCO2 05-27-2008 11:56 AM

I'm liking the idea, however, one thing to keep in mind. When you are not using the electric motor, make sure you have some way to disconnect it from the drive train otherwise it may become something like the alternator causing more resistance to the ICE's FE then just the wheels would be without the motor attached. If I were to do this I would do it as follows.

3 way relay contact switch like you're planning on doing and a normal foot clutch like a car (mainly to keep the acceleration smooth. Hit button number 1, slowly release clutch to accelerate, then, hit button two. By this time the clutch should be unnecessary for the transition, then button three in the same manner as two. Then once you max out button three, you will need to have a lever of sorts to put it in almost like a "neutral" gear, so the motor is no longer contacting the wheels so the wheels can spin "free-ish" as they would have before. Then proceed like you would with the ICE. This would give you a jerry-rigged type hybrid in a sense. However, my only concern is with the "clutch" mechanism and the neutral lever. Those things are going to be more expensive then if you didn't use them, and they are also pretty complex parts of the drive train so they're going to be hard to install / machine.

Personally, I would do a little research into motor controllers and see if you can't actually just make your own variable speed controller. Not only will it allow you to have a smoother acceleration, but it will also increase battery life since contact type controllers are less efficient.

Nerys 05-27-2008 12:08 PM

at 3700 pounds I think the mass will smooth things out. Any Motor I get is likely not going to be able to effectively move the vehicle on its own (as if I would be so lucky) I am hoping for something like a Bicycle Sprocket thing. IE you can stop pedaling and it "free spins" I am hoping to find a larger heavy duty version of something like this. would eliminate the need for any clutch or lever.

Worst case I am hoping to do what people do with there alternators. IE removed the electrical load and the alternator free spins for the most part.

Sure it will add "some" load but this increased load should be far far less than the benefit I will gain from the electric motor reducing fuel needs.

For now I am just going to try and "get it working" and see what happens. If it proves unusually effective say I manage to get 50mpg. then I would definitely look into both a controller and regen. IE I could just wait a year and use the saved gas money to buy the parts :-)

If the motor proves powerful enough to handle the load I will first go with a larger batter pack. or work on making a NIMH battery pack.

Coyote X 05-27-2008 03:09 PM

The part that I am planning when I put a rear drive in my metro is to modify the largest alternator I can find to put out 70 volts or so to charge the battery pack with the gas engine. That way if the car is able to drive on electric only once up to speed or whatever the gas motor could just be cycled on and off every so often just to charge the batteries. Then just use a single set of optima or similar batteries that can run the car for a few minutes at full load before needing recharged. Gives the car a lot of flexibility that way by charging it at home or on the road.

I am still looking into different rear drive setups though and if the voyager rear drivetrain is easy to find it might be worth looking into. I figure whatever I end up using I want something common and cheap to find replacement parts for.

If you do find a good awd voyager in a junkyard somewhere take lots of pics of it :)

Nerys 05-27-2008 03:22 PM

Absolutely - I have an obsession with taking pictures :-) hehe

ttoyoda 05-27-2008 03:42 PM

The freewheel you are looking for is called an
overrunning clutch

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freewheel

ttoyoda 05-27-2008 03:47 PM

And you *are* planning to wire this up so that when the brake lights come on the motor shuts off automatically, right?
;)

Nerys 05-27-2008 03:58 PM

No. It will be a dead man switch. I will have to HOLD the button in order for it to go. If I am hitting the breaks clearly I will not be pressing the button :-) Thats why I canned the "foot switch" concept. I fear I may mash the break with my right foot and "mash" my left foot in instinct as well and if its on the switch .... so its a dead mans hand switch for safety.

ttoyodaa thanks for the link EXACTLY what I was looking for. Now to find one and see how complicated it will be to retro into my design :-)

ttoyoda 05-27-2008 04:25 PM

Well if it was me, I might mess up and hit the button by accident, if I was in the "learning" phase of using this device.

I think your basic idea is sound. If you had some additional way of controling the connection of the motor to the axle, then you might be able to recharge your batteries. Maybe you could sense manifold vacuum to detect coasting or slowdowns to to the engagement. There is something called a magnetic clutch that can be engaged or disengaged electrically. Then wire it up so you only try to charge ONE battery at a time, and make a selector so on the next slowdown the next battery gets charged.

getnpsi 05-27-2008 05:08 PM

I think a minivan is the perfect candidate for its rear payload area. I do not want to see this thread die, or your plans Nerys

IndyIan 05-28-2008 12:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nerys (Post 24859)
I am not sure. My original idea was a free wheel like on a bicycle. IE spins freely when no force is applied. I figure "heavy duty" version of that must exist??

You might get away with using 1 or 2 good bicycle free wheels, my rough calcs say one deals with 400ft/lbs of torque quite well. Me at 220lb mashing down one pedal while pulling up on the bars must be around 400lbs of force, doubled by the crank arm diameter vs the sprocket diameter into an equal rear sprocket diameter, heck maybe its 800 ft/lbs but that sounds a bit high.

Do all of your torque multiplication after the freewheel and you should be ok. They might not like high rpm though, bike wheels are big and don't see 50mph very often. If you can't find a heavy duty free wheel right away these might be good enough for proof of concept anyways.

Cool idea!
Ian

dremd 05-28-2008 11:30 PM

there is also a similar (one way) part in many starters, might be worth a look.

Nerys 05-30-2008 02:05 AM

Some questions. BUYING an electric motor may not be too far out of the range of feasible. HOW MUCH Horse Power do I need? How do I even figure this out? I see even 50 and 60hp electric motors for under $500 !! thats a lot of money More than I have but maybe in a few months I could scrounge it up.

WHAT type of Horse Power do I need? How do I figure it out? Vehicle mass 3700 pounds.

IndyIan 05-30-2008 09:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nerys (Post 29613)
WHAT type of Horse Power do I need? How do I figure it out? Vehicle mass 3700 pounds.

Thorough bred hp is good for topspeed, clydesdale hp gives you more torque...;)

As for how much hp your motor should be, what does a Prius have? 25hp? You have probably double the drag and weight by the time you add everything so double a Prius. I guess it also depends on when you will be in electric mode. 35mph and under? 60mph up hills? For most industrial application the general rule is that you need half as much hp using an electric motor vs a gas motor. But if you only need 30 hp to go 50mph on flat ground and thats acceptable maybe its all you need.

Not to burst your bubble, but maybe something like a late 80's dodge shadow that shared many parts with the late 80's caravan would be a better platform for this. I seem to recall that there was an AWD caravan back then and hopefully the rear axle is interchangable with the shadow? I don't know for sure it would be a simple swap but it would put you ahead in aero drag and lose over 1000lbs in weight.
I'll bet a good running dodge shadow is sub $500 to get you started.
Ian

DifferentPointofView 05-30-2008 11:51 AM

Quote:

When the motor is assisting the ICE, it's pushing it down into a less efficient part of the BSFC map. You'll be getting considerably less power from the ICE, but it will only be using a little less fuel.
Just to clarify, but the same EXACT thing happens when you do aeromods. Less load on the engine= less on the BSFC map, but you still use less fuel because you use less air, and you need a correct air/fuel mix for it to burn correctly.

Sounds like a good Idea to me. Would this be possible with a 4wd vehicle?

Nerys 05-30-2008 01:34 PM

Nope Limiting the project to my Voyager on purpose. Many reasons. I already have it. I like it. I Fit well and my body is not wrecked during the 110 mile round trip commute. (I am over 6'3")

IE I like my van and I already have my van. IE I do not have to BUY another car. "adding" another $500 is well beyond my means. Its going to be hard enough for me to scrounge up the $400-$500 I need now!

Also I want this to work on the heavier car! (if it works on this it will work on the other cars as well!)

My objective is just to prove it works and get others to do the same thing. My "ultimate" would make me happier than a pig in you know what would be if I got a significant gain. say 45-50mpg

Then you guys repeated my experiment and ALSO got 45+mpg

We would then have some serious teeth with which to pose some serious question to toyota and the other car makers.

If us schlubs can do that for a few hundred dollars in junkyard parts why is it that you can not manage better with your millions of dollars and $24,000 cars!

THAT would be the ultimate outcome!

dremd 05-30-2008 07:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nerys (Post 29613)
I see even 50 and 60hp electric motors for under $500 !! thats a lot of money More than I have but maybe in a few months I could scrounge it up.

Where from?

I'm looking at at 49 peak + 18 continuous motor for a similar pipe dream/ not going to happen anytime soon project on my golf . . ..

Nerys 05-30-2008 10:08 PM

Ebay. I just typed in electric motor and starts adding hp's to it 30hp 40hp etc..

nickblair 06-05-2008 06:54 PM

as far as the clutch goes, if you go to an agri-supply they should have them... they are more often refered to as a "sprag clutch" I think they run about $12

I'm very interested in this, I remember reading some stuff about the compressed nitrogen regenerative braking systems that eaton was making for some experimental for trucks a few years back and their results(30% increase in city mpg I believe)I look at it about the same way - any help in acceleration will yield nice results I think

Njay 06-08-2008 01:35 PM

I know of a Open project with the similar goal of turning normal vehicles into hybrids: http://myownhybrid.wordpress.com .
One of the major problems was to find who would sell only a pair of in-wheel electric motors by an affordable price; since the answer was noone (not even close), we had to go the path of designing such motors.

JV-Tuga 06-08-2008 02:41 PM

The exact same idea occurred to me a while back and I posted a couple of days ago asking about feasibility. Didn't get any informative answers, though, so I'm happy to find this thread.

The way I conceived it it would work like this:

the driver would have a lever, like the ones on jets to increase power to the motor, set it to neutral (i.e., no power, no drag) or use it to brake/slow down while coasting, instead of the normal breaks or, if moved further that way, to regen.

The "dead man switch" would be on the actual brake pedal and immediately set the motor to neutral or even regen, based on pressure applied.

The only problem I foresee with a setup like this is if the car has ABS.

nickleinonen 06-10-2008 09:05 AM

i don't think the bicycle overrunning clutch would work. i have broken a few on various bicycles i have had.. depending the electric motor used, you could easily have over 1000lbs/ft of torque on a motor that is less than 20hp..

a farm style sprag clutch for a pto or 3pt hitch could work well..



Quote:

Originally Posted by IndyIan (Post 29106)
You might get away with using 1 or 2 good bicycle free wheels, my rough calcs say one deals with 400ft/lbs of torque quite well. Me at 220lb mashing down one pedal while pulling up on the bars must be around 400lbs of force, doubled by the crank arm diameter vs the sprocket diameter into an equal rear sprocket diameter, heck maybe its 800 ft/lbs but that sounds a bit high.

Do all of your torque multiplication after the freewheel and you should be ok. They might not like high rpm though, bike wheels are big and don't see 50mph very often. If you can't find a heavy duty free wheel right away these might be good enough for proof of concept anyways.

Cool idea!
Ian


COMP 06-10-2008 09:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nickleinonen (Post 33243)
i don't think the bicycle overrunning clutch would work. i have broken a few on various bicycles i have had.. depending the electric motor used, you could easily have over 1000lbs/ft of torque on a motor that is less than 20hp..

a farm style sprag clutch for a pto or 3pt hitch could work well..

a auto-trans have one-way spags in them

elhigh 06-10-2008 10:03 AM

I always thought it might be cool to mount a motor under the bed of the truck to run a toothed belt to the driveshaft, and a super heavy duty AC clutch to take the motor load off when running straight ICE.

nickleinonen 06-10-2008 10:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by COMP (Post 33261)
a auto-trans have one-way spags in them


so do the turbochargers on the emd diesel engines i work on.. they are 2 cycle diesels, and the turbo is gear driven through the clutch to act as a blower for scavanging until the drive pressure/heat is enough to overcome the clutch then it acts as a regular turbocharger..


the sprag is a great idea for this idea, but it needs to be sized properly to be strong enough.

Quote:

I always thought it might be cool to mount a motor under the bed of the truck to run a toothed belt to the driveshaft, and a super heavy duty AC clutch to take the motor load off when running straight ICE.
i have had similar dreams.. another idea could be having a transfer case on a 2wd truck and having the electric motor mounted to where the front driveshaft would be. pop the trans in neutral and transfer case into 4x4 and you could power the rear axle through the transfer case.

another idea is in prototyping now by variable torque motors.. a driveshaft mounted electric motor assist for the ICE.. very neat idea but going to be expensive i think

http://www.variabletorquemotors.com/...%20Writeup.pdf


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