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-   -   Lowest drag side mirrors (https://ecomodder.com/forum/showthread.php/lowest-drag-side-mirrors-12808.html)

Otto 03-31-2010 11:59 PM

Lowest drag side mirrors
 
Any sources on testing of the lowest drag side mirrors?

In other words, for a given frontal area, what shape mirror is most slippery?

Long stalk, further from side glass?

Short stalk, partially in wake of car frame?

Bullet shape?

pgmomni 04-04-2010 01:16 PM

I am interested in this topic also.
Just beginning to plan/start aero mods on a 2000 Camry.

I will post if I find anything.

Pete

cfg83 04-04-2010 03:41 PM

Otto -

I think these are good candidates :

http://www.ilovebodykits.com/images/..._TC-RMS-F1.jpg

They can be $70 a pair for a good set, or less than $30 for a pair on flea-bay if you look around.

CarloSW2

RobertSmalls 04-04-2010 07:31 PM

What about Chang Ho Kim's boattailed mirror?

redyaris 04-04-2010 08:01 PM

An other source may be mirrors used on open wheeled or other race cars that could be adapted to ecomoded road cars. They are very small in terms of frontal area and well shaped. I think I will look for some myself now that I thought of it! Thanks for the question.

cfg83 04-04-2010 08:02 PM

RobertSmalls -

Quote:

Originally Posted by RobertSmalls (Post 169199)
What about Chang Ho Kim's boattailed mirror?

Yup, that's a great one too :

http://ecomodder.com/forum/showthrea...r-10203-3.html
http://i565.photobucket.com/albums/s...e/102_3530.jpg

You could probably combine the best of both worlds. A small-enough-to-use mirror with the boattail design. I found a candidate for the mirror housing in a hobby shop. Think R/C model airplane canopies :

E-Flite Canopy: F-15 Eagle DF ARF
http://www.rcplanet.com/v/vspfiles/p...EFL7060-2T.jpg

The above is *only* a pictorial example, it may not be the right scale. I think you need one to be about 12" long if it is going to contain a 2" convex mirror. Here is one that is 9" :

Great Planes Canopy Patriot/Dazzler GPMQ2255 - Toysonics.com
http://www.toysonics.com/images/T/GPMQ2255-01.jpg

Imagine the above with the mirror mounted inside the flat interior part.

Neither of the above egg-zamples are egg-zactly what I was hoping to show. If you go into a hobby shop you can find a really good on for maybe $10 or less.

At one point I had an "Easter Egg Mirror", but that had too much refraction from the clear plastic and didn't work well :

http://ecomodder.com/forum/member-cf...egg-mirror.jpg

The question in all of these "clear covered" mirror designs is whether or not the clear cover interfers with the visibility. The good thing about a "canopy mirror cover" is that the interior side should not have the clear plastic between the mirror and the side window. I just realized that I didn't test this theory in the hobby shop. Next time I go I will take a round-convex mirror with me and do the test. If it looks good, then maybe I will try a new side-view mirror design.

CarloSW2

cfg83 04-04-2010 08:03 PM

redyaris -

Quote:

Originally Posted by redyaris (Post 169205)
An other source may be mirrors used on open wheeled or other race cars that could be adapted to ecomoded road cars. They are very small in terms of frontal area and well shaped. I think I will look for some myself now that I thought of it! Thanks for the question.

The mirrors in my first post are modeled after those designs.

CarloSW2

AeroModder 04-04-2010 11:43 PM

If anyone finds the universal F1 style wheels for cheap, make sure to share. So far I've found $70 to be the lowest for the universal ones.

Mirror set, pair, F1 Race style, manual, black or carbon fiber look, without heat: Electrodyne, Quality Motoring Accessories

cfg83 04-05-2010 12:11 AM

AeroModder -

(I don't vouch for the quality ...)

Ok, looks like $28 a pair :

00-04 FORD FOCUS F1 BLACK RACING SIDE MIRRORS 01 02 03 : eBay Motors (item 220569231209 end time Apr-08-10 14:05:02 PDT)


CarloSW2

Frank Lee 04-05-2010 01:29 AM

http://i565.photobucket.com/albums/s...e/102_3530.jpg

Bwaahahahaha!!! I'd like to see the yarn/smoke tests on that baby... fail! :rolleyes:


http://ecomodder.com/forum/member-cf...egg-mirror.jpg

Me thinks trailing airflow on eggs ain't where it's at either...

JeepNmpg2 04-05-2010 01:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frank Lee (Post 169242)
http://i565.photobucket.com/albums/s...e/102_3530.jpg

Bwaahahahaha!!! I'd like to see the yarn/smoke tests on that baby... fail! :rolleyes:


http://ecomodder.com/forum/member-cf...egg-mirror.jpg

Me thinks trailing airflow on eggs ain't where it's at either...

I have to say I'm with Frank on these, the angles just don't look right on "celephane wrapped mirror" and the egg isn't going to cut it. I will say that the cockpit model might have promise though...

cfg83 04-05-2010 02:54 AM

Frank -

Yeah, I guess I'm just an Easter Bunny fan. I tried to force it to work because I'm an "off-the-(chocolate-)shelf" fan. I still like how it looked in its own funny way.

The next time I go to the hobby shop I will strain the patience of the owner ... "Can I put this up against the glass door with a mirror in it to look for refraction? I promise I'll buy it if I have good visibility ... Why are you looking at me that way?!?!?!".

CarloSW2

Frank Lee 04-05-2010 03:11 AM

I like how it looks too!

But aero? Naaaaah...

2win2rbo 04-05-2010 04:08 AM

Race cars use a thinner more elongate pair of mirrors. I am not really sure if the wake part can be edited due to the reduction in the field of vision.

pgmomni 04-05-2010 07:25 AM

After Market Mirror choices for a Gen4 Camry, pls help me pick best aero one.
 
OEM Style NG!
1993 93 CAMRY MIRROR Toyota power mirrors RH NEW : eBay Motors (item 110447728897 end time Apr-17-10 12:55:19 PDT)

3 other inexpensive mirrors.
98-01 TOYOTA CAMRY M3 SIGNAL CHROME POWER MIRRORS 99 00 : eBay Motors (item 220580367190 end time Apr-27-10 14:22:42 PDT)

98-99-00-01 Toyota Camry JDM Side View Mirror+FREE GIFT : eBay Motors (item 220578264879 end time Apr-23-10 14:22:56 PDT)

98-01 TOYOTA CAMRY F1 RACING SIDE MIRRORS RACING 00 99 : eBay Motors (item 220574975639 end time Apr-18-10 13:04:58 PDT)

I believe the last one is the best for aero BUT the other 2 above have better "street" appeal. Are they any good aero wise or just all looks?

Tks for the aero assistance

Pete

AeroModder 04-05-2010 10:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cfg83 (Post 169236)
AeroModder -

(I don't vouch for the quality ...)

Ok, looks like $28 a pair :

00-04 FORD FOCUS F1 BLACK RACING SIDE MIRRORS 01 02 03 : eBay Motors (item 220569231209 end time Apr-08-10 14:05:02 PDT)


CarloSW2

Unfortunately, that base is for a Focus, but thanks anyway.

cfg83 04-05-2010 11:30 AM

Aeromodder -

Quote:

Originally Posted by AeroModder (Post 169277)
Unfortunately, that base is for a Focus, but thanks anyway.

Maybe, maybe not. If you look at the "ebay store", the picture is always the same for all of these el-cheapos. You could ask them if the bases are unique or not.

CarloSW2

pgmomni 04-05-2010 01:10 PM

I agree, all the products show the same pic no matter what car they are for...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by cfg83 (Post 169284)
Aeromodder -



Maybe, maybe not. If you look at the "ebay store", the picture is always the same for all of these el-cheapos. You could ask them if the bases are unique or not.

CarloSW2

I just went on ebay and asked:
"So these mirrors are a direct fit, bolt on like OEM replacements?
The $29.50 price plus 17.66 shipping is for BOTH left and right mirrors
or are the mirrors $29.50 each?"

Lets see if they reply and what they say. 11 negs, 6 neutrals out of 167 this month.
Thats about 1 in 10 NG.

But there were a lot of reviews for mirrors that were good.

Pete

AeroModder 04-05-2010 01:12 PM

I'm pretty sure they would be if they take the trouble of listing for specific makes and models. I'm actually leaning toward the universal base that'll drill into the side of the door. I've had to replace a window before, so I'm familiar with how to install them. That'll also give me more freedom in positioning for better visibility and/or aero.

Though this talk of smoothing out the sides has given me an idea for a new project to smooth out the sides- Get some Lexan over the windows to make them flush with the door frames. One of my rear windows won't roll down anyway! I'll take some pictures and start a new thread later on.


Also, I sent a message to the seller yesterday asking about other models, but no answer yet.

cfg83 04-05-2010 02:27 PM

pgmomni -

Quote:

Originally Posted by pgmomni (Post 169299)
I just went on ebay and asked:
"So these mirrors are a direct fit, bolt on like OEM replacements?
The $29.50 price plus 17.66 shipping is for BOTH left and right mirrors
or are the mirrors $29.50 each?"

Lets see if they reply and what they say. 11 negs, 6 neutrals out of 167 this month.
Thats about 1 in 10 NG.

But there were a lot of reviews for mirrors that were good.

Pete

Thanks for doing this. They are el-cheapos, so you get what you pay for. The negatives are a good catch.

I had to scan their messy posting until my eyes started to bleed, :o, but they do say two mirrors.

CarloSW2

cfg83 04-05-2010 02:31 PM

AeroModder -

Quote:

Originally Posted by AeroModder (Post 169301)
I'm pretty sure they would be if they take the trouble of listing for specific makes and models. I'm actually leaning toward the universal base that'll drill into the side of the door. I've had to replace a window before, so I'm familiar with how to install them. That'll also give me more freedom in positioning for better visibility and/or aero.

Though this talk of smoothing out the sides has given me an idea for a new project to smooth out the sides- Get some Lexan over the windows to make them flush with the door frames. One of my rear windows won't roll down anyway! I'll take some pictures and start a new thread later on.


Also, I sent a message to the seller yesterday asking about other models, but no answer yet.

The universal base is a good idea. For people like us with Tempos and S-Series, it's doubful that we will find any aftermarket mirrors that are designed for our cars. My assumption going in is that I will have to retrofit a mount when I do this stuff.

CarloSW2

aerohead 04-05-2010 05:02 PM

sticky
 
I believe there is some mirror info in the sticky on mod data.Off hand,the Ford Probe-IV and Subaru XT are two cars of which mirror research was conducted.I believe that the Probe's were 'neutral'.
Air is very fast near the A-pillars.If the mirror must be near there,you want it further out where the air is slower like the original Impact in 1989.

COcyclist 04-05-2010 05:56 PM

el cheapo mirrors?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by cfg83 (Post 169171)
Otto -

I think these are good candidates :

http://www.ilovebodykits.com/images/..._TC-RMS-F1.jpg

They can be $70 a pair for a good set, or less than $30 for a pair on flea-bay if you look around.

CarloSW2

I believe I have a pair of these in my garage, still in the box. Mine are the printed-on carbon fiber look. They looked too cheezy to put on the Golf and the glass quality is not great. I guess it depends on what you are looking for. I may use the right side mounting base for a future mirror delete with a quick temporary install option if I find I must.

cfg83 04-05-2010 08:51 PM

COcyclist -

Quote:

Originally Posted by COcyclist (Post 169337)
I believe I have a pair of these in my garage, still in the box. Mine are the printed-on carbon fiber look. They looked too cheezy to put on the Golf and the glass quality is not great. I guess it depends on what you are looking for. I may use the right side mounting base for a future mirror delete with a quick temporary install option if I find I must.

Oooooh, that's cool. My assumption is that they are el-cheapos, but I have no proof beyond the price. Sounds like you are confirming it. Can you take a picture of the mounting to see how "adaptable" they are to other cars?

CarloSW2

COcyclist 04-06-2010 12:06 PM

I bought mine here:

Autodynamic.com

and the bases (bigger plastic triangle) were specific to my car and actually appear to fit the door pretty well. The smaller triangle is attached to the mirror and secures to the adapter base with 3 screws. They are much smaller and the stalk moves them away from the A pillar as Aerohead suggests. The VW mirrors fold so I came up with another solution. I'll try to post pictures tonight.

gone-ot 04-06-2010 02:53 PM

...I think obtaining a "lowest drag" mirror is like "saving money"...where the best way to save money is to "...not spend it!"

...thus the lowest drag mirror is NO external mirror (use a camera!)

cfg83 04-06-2010 03:51 PM

Old Tele man -

Quote:

Originally Posted by Old Tele man (Post 169477)
...I think obtaining a "lowest drag" mirror is like "saving money"...where the best way to save money is to "...not spend it!"

...thus the lowest drag mirror is NO external mirror (use a camera!)

Even if a camera is a legal replacement for a mirror in your state, you may still get a ticket from a disbelieving officer of the law. You could still win in court, but then the hassle-factor has to be weighed in as part of your cost.

CarloSW2

AeroModder 04-06-2010 04:30 PM

I heard back from the Ebay seller of the el-cheapo F1 mirrors. Not helpful at all.

Quote:

HI,

We are sorry but we do not have aerodynamic mirrors if you have any further questions please feel free to email us back.

Thank you,

Sincerely,

Street_made
Yeah...:rolleyes:

cfg83 04-06-2010 06:01 PM

AeroModder -

Yeah, thanks for making the effort. They are pretty cheesy.

COcyclist posted what I was suspecting. The triangular base you see in all the pictures is generic and attaches to a *custom* base designed for your car. This gives the base a 3-sided "stepped pyramid" look :

http://www.autodynamic.com/transfer/...ED-VWG9904.jpg

Therefore, if you make your own smooth looking base, you can attach the mirror to that. If the Tempo had OEM side mirror covers in a super-no-frills model, that could be your base.

Again, notice in the above picture that the triangular base is not "flush" to the one that attaches to your car. Ideally I think that you would want to inset the base.

CarloSW2

RandomFact314 04-06-2010 07:20 PM

1 Attachment(s)
These look pretty aero

http://ecomodder.com/forum/attachmen...1&d=1270596006

NeilBlanchard 04-06-2010 07:49 PM

Motorcycle mirrors are (slightly) convex, if I am not mistaken. And mounting those with the angled stalk would be interesting -- maybe the 'L' can be positioned back, and the mirror has enough pivot in it to make them useful?

cfg83 04-06-2010 08:44 PM

RandomFact314 -

Oh yeah, I have spent a *ton* of time scouring motorcycle websites and e-bay for mirrors. I do have a very cool pair of motorcycle mirrors that would have cut my side-view-mirror size in half (and looked good on the car, IMO), but I "leapfrogged" that possibility and I am presently down to one leetle bicycle mirror, so I don't have the need.

Neil -

Quote:

Originally Posted by NeilBlanchard (Post 169523)
Motorcycle mirrors are (slightly) convex, if I am not mistaken. And mounting those with the angled stalk would be interesting -- maybe the 'L' can be positioned back, and the mirror has enough pivot in it to make them useful?

I don't know if they are convex. Part of my old search was finding one that had a "practical" stalk that was useable for a car. The one in RandomFact314's picture is not designed to mount on the "vertical side" of a car. Instead it's designed to mount on something like the motocycle handlebar or cowling.

Another possibility is snowmobile mirrors. You can get small ones that are also convex. This is my favorite one that I never got :

Side Mirror Snowmobile Mirror Wing : eBay Motors (item 250240833784 end time Apr-14-10 06:30:51 PDT)
http://www.smartchamp.com/Clarion/Im...eWingMirro.jpg

They are convex, have an adjustable mount that is compatible with cars, and they are *small*, 2.5" * 4". They don't have a stalk mount, but you can't have it all.

CarloSW2

AeroModder 04-07-2010 01:30 AM

Not bad, but they still have the bulky base, which is going to add wasted frontal area. Though I do like the convex glass, since it will allow you to use a smaller mirror.

I'm just going to stick with the $70 pair I found that'll bolt onto the side of the door, then just cut and tape some coroplast over where the old mirrors were. But that's after I get the money, since ordering the new tires cleaned me out for a while.

pgmomni 04-07-2010 06:42 PM

So far I have to agree...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Old Tele man (Post 169477)
...I think obtaining a "lowest drag" mirror is like "saving money"...where the best way to save money is to "...not spend it!"

...thus the lowest drag mirror is NO external mirror (use a camera!)

There doesnt seem to be anything available that will mount easily and
look OK and actually make much difference.

So for now, I am moving onto other aero mods I can actually do for little to no $$$.

Under belly pan, front upper grille delete.
Larger, skinny tires, full moon hubcaps.

Later maybe a full vinyl fabric aero bra to smooth out the entire front
of car.

Thanks everyone for the mirror info.

Pete

Otto 04-08-2010 12:48 AM

Thanks for all the input.

Coupla thoughts:

Closer to the window glass probably = slower slipstream than further out, for lower drag since drag increases exponentially with airspeed

Use Great Stuff polyurethane insulation foam to make streamlined shapes of stock mirrors? That way, a flat mirror and its stalk could be easily sculpted to much more aero shape.

Best idea might be clear model airplane canopy over smaller mirror pretty close to the window glass. Go on Youtube with keywords "plastic vacuum forming" or similar and see how to do this in your kitchen oven + shop vac.

mrk 04-08-2010 06:56 AM

I think these may be the most aerodynamic I've seen
Doesn't it make sense to follow the teardrop shape for mirrors?
http://www.racemirrors.com/engineering.html
http://www.racemirrors.com/PFE-CF-E-flow-viz-web.jpg

At least thinking in mirrors alone - without car - it seems logical to me

For a complete solution (car+mirror) I wonder if the solution found in some Opel would be good for any car
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...ectraB98_2.JPG

What do you guys think of this??

COcyclist 04-08-2010 10:26 AM

The Racemirror with the clear extension may indeed be the most aerodynamic mirror out there but at $135 each it would take decades to break even on fuel savings.

mrk 04-08-2010 11:31 AM

I totally agree with you COcyclist, I think no mirror will save you more money than it costs, and with this one is more true!

But I always think in modding my existing mirrors to get this shape
Even I can use a plastic bottle to do this clear extension, even if I have to change it every 2 months or so (sunlight will degrade it) it may be worth...

robertwb70 04-08-2010 01:08 PM

An issue I've noticed on my car (with no side mirrors) this week with tuft testing is the assumed horizontal airflow around the mirror is not correct (at least not on my car, I think most others would show similar results). The airflow where the mirror was is actually inclined in an upward direction (about a 45 degree angle or therabouts) so mirrors that look great for horizontal flow are not even close to good for what's actually happening. I see many mirrors that are flat on the bottom which seems to be the about the worst design.

NeilBlanchard 04-08-2010 10:32 PM

Hi Robert,

What you say seems to coincide with a drawing from the Hucho book "Aerodynamics of Road Vehicles":
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v7...uchoFig1-8.png


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