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bennelson 05-07-2010 11:14 PM

Making EVs BETTER than traditional cars
 
Hey Folks,

Tonight, I got a comment/question on about electric vehicles I have posted elsewhere on the internet.

The question was "Can an electric car have air conditioning?"

I replied that the answer is, of course, YES! I then briefly explained how it can be done.

But that got me thinking........

The EV-1 could heat OR cool the car automatically BEFORE you got in it!

The Nissan Leaf is supposed to be able to do all sorts of things (pre-cool, program when recharging starts, etc.) by programming it with a cell phone.

So, Electric Vehicles can do the same things that traditional gasoline cars can (such as have air conditioning) but they can even do some other things even BETTER!

People often ask what I do for heat in the winter. I never even bothered to build in a heater. Rather, I just set an existing heater directly in the car, set on a timer. When I hopped in the car in the morning, the car was already warm! Try that in a gasser! (with your car parked in the garage, with the door closed.)

If we are going to play around with things like electric conversions, why even try to be like a gas car. Instead, why not exploit the unique advantages of EVs to create something far better!?

Does anyone else have cool ideas for a home electric conversion - to make it better/more fun/more useful than a gas car?

I still think I would like to rig mine up with a full battery pack inverter. In case of a blackout, my car could power my house!

Christ 05-08-2010 12:07 AM

Inverter idea also works for a job-site power supply, if you happen to be one of those people who might need one.

Imagine what a 480VDC electric car could do in case an EMT needed a de-fib? ;)

MPaulHolmes 05-08-2010 04:20 AM

You could program your controller to accept data from the serial port. Then you could just get a series of coordinates from GPS or something, and let it drive you all by itself (allowing for input by you of course, like braking, slight left/right corrections, etc...). I actually don't think it would be very hard.

You could show your "instantaneous miles per gallon", or watt*hr/mi on a moment by moment basis, where it corrects the figure based on the amount of force required at that moment to move the car how it's moving (watt*hr/mi is actually a unit of FORCE!). Then it could be a game, so that you could drive so as to minimize that force. A direct hypermiling indicator. On a regular gas car, you have to just wonder how good your hypermiling is going. Well, there's the MPGuino.

dcb 05-08-2010 08:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MPaulHolmes (Post 173713)
You could program your controller to accept data from the serial port. Then you could just get a series of coordinates from GPS or something, and let it drive you all by itself (allowing for input by you of course, like braking, slight left/right corrections, etc...). I actually don't think it would be very hard...

The question is if it "should" be done. I think there would be even more zombies on the road if this took. Take the train/bus if you can't be bothered to drive.

bennelson 05-08-2010 10:28 AM

The large version of the Elec-Trak had accessories available for it, including an arc welder and a power inverter.

I do like the ideas of power inversion and battery backup. I don't think a defibulation is the best idea, although I did jump-start an original Honda Insight once from one of my traction batteries. (Never saw a car jump-start so fast in my life!)

I don't think the average driver needs a robot car yet either, although that is one of those things constantly experimented with by the military and robot competitions.

I DO like the idea of instant instumentation and GPS. I talked with Adam a while back about GPS integration, and he said he was working on it. I will have to pester him about it again...

My dashboard computer has a 800x600 display. If the software was designed to toggle through a couple display modes, one could be just watt-hrs/mile really big in the middle of the screen, Or even a very large bar graph or something similar. Heck, even a change of color - green for good, red for bad, could help a driver instantly become more efficient.

ExplodingDinosaurs 05-08-2010 01:31 PM

Great thread. Here are a few ideas for things an EV can do better:
  • Instantaneous traction control -- an electric motor can react far faster than exploding dinosaurs in a gas motor
  • Less time lost to shifting
  • You are always in the "right" gear (you want to rev the electric motor high for efficiency, so no time lost for downshifting)
  • Robot recharge -- drive over a power connector so you don't even have to plug in, or a small robot finds a plug and plugs you in
  • Falling torque curve in constant power mode gives an inherent form of traction control -- as the motor speeds up torque drops
  • Quieter means more feedback to the driver for hard cornering or hard launches in racing
  • Redundancy for reliability is easier to do -- you could do 8 motors, 8 controller, and 8 separate battery packs
  • Smaller size of the EV motor allows for more packaging options, such as behind the rear axle or putting it into the driveshaft tunnel
  • You can work on the car right after a drive without burning yourself, and if you burn yourself that's a diagnostic something is wrong!
  • Things are less likely to vibrate loose, as the electric motor is smoother

vpoppv 05-08-2010 01:52 PM

I've thought about this a lot in the past as well, and one thing I think that an EV has an advantage over gas cars is the stored electrical energy. One hobby I used to have was car audio. There are a few disadvantages to building the ultimate car stereo based on the fact that it has to run on 12 volts. Oddly, there is a bit of crossapplications I have already benefited from: my accessory battery is a highly sought after battery for car audio enthusiasts: the exide orbital . It can be stored in any position because it is completely sealed, it has a low internal resistance, and it keeps a higher resting voltage. I like it because it keeps my windshield wipers going at a good rate versus a traditional battery. Anyway, more to the point: I think a car audio enthusiast could greatly benefit from an EV in a bunch of different ways. He/she could give up range to have the best car audio setup in town!

MPaulHolmes 05-08-2010 02:55 PM

You could also put it in forced watt*hr/mi mode. Maybe allow the display to ask you if you wish to temporarily remove the restriction if it notices that you are riding the line exactly. But then around town, if you lived in a semi flat area, you would be forced to hypermile. You would know exactly what sort of acceleration and top speed and such is required to get the equivalent mpg that you are shooting for. Also, the ability to generate graphs of every conceivable piece of data, like individual battery states, and power moment by moment, etc... You could see your graphs, and compare alternative routes, to see what minimizes energy usage. You could have a money meter, so that it shows how much your driving style is costing you in energy usage.

Christ 05-08-2010 05:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ExplodingDinosaurs (Post 173744)
Great thread. Here are a few ideas for things an EV can do better:
  • Instantaneous traction control -- an electric motor can react far faster than exploding dinosaurs in a gas motor
  • Less time lost to shifting
  • You are always in the "right" gear (you want to rev the electric motor high for efficiency, so no time lost for downshifting)
  • Robot recharge -- drive over a power connector so you don't even have to plug in, or a small robot finds a plug and plugs you in
  • Falling torque curve in constant power mode gives an inherent form of traction control -- as the motor speeds up torque drops
  • Quieter means more feedback to the driver for hard cornering or hard launches in racing
  • Redundancy for reliability is easier to do -- you could do 8 motors, 8 controller, and 8 separate battery packs
  • Smaller size of the EV motor allows for more packaging options, such as behind the rear axle or putting it into the driveshaft tunnel
  • You can work on the car right after a drive without burning yourself, and if you burn yourself that's a diagnostic something is wrong!
  • Things are less likely to vibrate loose, as the electric motor is smoother

Very well thought out!

MPaulHolmes 05-08-2010 06:22 PM

The big hurtle seems to be range and time for charging. MIT recently developed some LiFePO batteries that could recharge in like 15 seconds. The problem would be the power source, but that's not a big deal I think. If charging stations could be equipped with similar type battery banks, they could dump their energy into a waiting car possibly faster than a gas car could fill up. So it may well be that evenually we are all laughing about how it used to take 5 minutes to fill up on gas, and now it only takes 15 seconds. hahaha.

Hey, since it's electrical energy, maybe the roads could transmit energy that to the car while you drive. Try that with gas...
For example, at MIT again (dang, they do a lot) they lit a 60w light bulb from a power source that was 7 feet away.
MIT Scientists Show How To Light A Bulb Wirelessly -- Wireless Power -- InformationWeek

What would gas cars do? Maybe in the future, you could chuck gas cans at them while they are driving. hahahaha.

Christ 05-08-2010 10:22 PM

I like that wireless power thing, but people tend to get a little pissy about being bombarded with microwaves from space...

(Like it's not already happening... tinfoil beanie, anyone?)

dcb 05-08-2010 10:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MPaulHolmes (Post 173770)
Hey, since it's electrical energy, maybe the roads could transmit energy that to the car while you drive.

tricky to do without rails to keep things lined up, and with rails I think they call it a rail gun :)

chuckm 05-09-2010 08:09 AM

This could be done with non-electric cars as well, but I think this would be VERY cool and good for saving power or gas:
Basically, equip cars with a GPS with an up-link to a city traffic grid. You put in your destination and the GPS uploads your route to the traffic computers, which then communicates back to you the optimum route and speed. In turn, it times the lights on your path. Equip enough cars with the system (and compliant drivers!) and you can reach a critical mass, essentially forcing most people to drive more efficiently.

Ryland 05-09-2010 12:47 PM

I'm always a bit baffled when people comment about how listening to the radio in your EV will reduce your range... maybe by 200 feet on a charge! but really, with a gas car you have to crank the radio up so you can hear it over the roar and vibration of the engine, in an EV you can hear the sound of the tires on the pavement!
I have a spare charge plug on the EV, I was thinking of using it for a heater, but I also think at times about the inverter idea, have a power in and a power out plug on the car.
A friend of mine has the welder for the elec-track tractor, along with the hand held electric rototiller.
I like the idea of Heated seats to heat your body instead of the car, much faster then waiting for a gas engine to warm up and more direct, really any battery powered heat like that should be direct, self warming steering wheel? you can already get 15 watt heating pads for motorcycle grips.
MiMod EV is a Battery Monitoring System for EV has an interesting product as well, high priced compared to my PakTrakr gauge (gives you full range of battery monitoring options), but the MiMod can give you your GPS, digital radio and a hand full of other options, all in a battery monitoring system.

NiHaoMike 05-09-2010 02:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vpoppv (Post 173748)
I've thought about this a lot in the past as well, and one thing I think that an EV has an advantage over gas cars is the stored electrical energy. One hobby I used to have was car audio. There are a few disadvantages to building the ultimate car stereo based on the fact that it has to run on 12 volts.

You could, in theory, disconnect the motor from the inverter, then connect some subwoofers. Not sure how 3 phase would work with audio, however...
Quote:

Hey, since it's electrical energy, maybe the roads could transmit energy that to the car while you drive. Try that with gas...
For example, at MIT again (dang, they do a lot) they lit a 60w light bulb from a power source that was 7 feet away.
If you have superconductors, you could just use existing radio stations for power. No additional infrastructure needed.
Nikola Tesla Page, Tesla's power receiver
So just make a superconductor practical for that application and then EVs will have essentially unlimited range...

vpoppv 05-09-2010 04:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryland (Post 173855)
I'm always a bit baffled when people comment about how listening to the radio in your EV will reduce your range... maybe by 200 feet on a charge!

You must have missed the point of my post entirely, unless using 64,000 watts of power somehow won't affect range. I'm no EE, that's for sure, but I think it might have more than a 200 foot impact on range. Here's closer to what I mean (warning, the language used is offensive!):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pthHmI5e7eU

Oftentimes, such vehicles are ONLY used for SPL competitions, and it seems that an EV would be better suited for these vehicles, given the energy storage required....

MPaulHolmes 05-09-2010 07:28 PM

I think you would die if you were inside the car while those things were on. 64kW of sound energy sounds dangerous. hahahaha. That was awesome. Metal shouldn't distort like that. I wonder what it does to the inside of your brain?

Ryland 05-09-2010 08:21 PM

exactly, 64kw sound system is only the kind of system that one out of every 10,000 or more people would even think about installing, not something that I could see a production car being sold with, my point was if you read comments about vehicles like the Nissan Leaf there are people who are saying "you might not make it home if you turn on the radio, a/c, heat, or anything else" if you have a 64kw sound system in your car then that might be true! but there is no reason why your electric car can't have heated seats, a nice stereo, 120v ac outlets inside and out.

Christ 05-09-2010 10:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MPaulHolmes (Post 173903)
I think you would die if you were inside the car while those things were on. 64kW of sound energy sounds dangerous. hahahaha. That was awesome. Metal shouldn't distort like that. I wonder what it does to the inside of your brain?

About 5 seconds in, mush.

About 5 minutes, gray pudding.

180dB for any real length of time, I've been told, will actually bruise your intestines from the vibration. It can cause serious health issues above and beyond that, as well.

RobertSmalls 05-10-2010 08:27 AM

The kid with the '93 Chrysler woody and the second place trophy had 134 dB, which is enough to induce pain in some people, but probably not enough to vibrate your tissue apart.

There was also a gentleman running 19V through his car's 12V grid.

Both of these folks need a hybrid or EV. A Ford Escape can deliver 70kW at 300V. Just build an amplifier that runs directly off the traction battery, like the Prius' air conditioning does, and you're positioned to spend more of your budget on speakers and none on batteries and alternators, allowing you to blow the doors off of those 19V poseurs and steal their women.

Christ 05-10-2010 01:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RobertSmalls (Post 173964)
The kid with the '93 Chrysler woody and the second place trophy had 134 dB, which is enough to induce pain in some people, but probably not enough to vibrate your tissue apart.

There was also a gentleman running 19V through his car's 12V grid.

Both of these folks need a hybrid or EV. A Ford Escape can deliver 70kW at 300V. Just build an amplifier that runs directly off the traction battery, like the Prius' air conditioning does, and you're positioned to spend more of your budget on speakers and none on batteries and alternators, allowing you to blow the doors off of those 19V poseurs and steal their women.

:thumbup:

MPaulHolmes 05-14-2010 02:23 PM

Hello, here is a great link. hahaha

Hey Check out this paragraph:


Even if resonant induction ends up being limited to short distances, it may yet have a great influence, particularly for the future of transportation. “We now [have the means to] charge a car safely and efficiently over gaps of 20 to 40 centimeters, and we believe we can build that into a roadway system,” says Covic. “That’s probably a decade away, but you’ve got to have a vision, and ours is roadway-powered systems.”

So, seriously, how are they going to do this in a gas car? That's what I'm really in favor of developing. I have an idea:

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/m...gic-missle.jpg

Basically, you put the gas in the front nozzle of the missile. Then shoot it at the car. The trick is, when the missile hits the car, you have to figure out a way to make the car not explode. Instead, you need to have perhaps a giant foam pad that will absorb the blow from the missile, and that will then filter the gas into the tank. It sounds complicated, but I think it can be made to work.

NeilBlanchard 05-14-2010 10:52 PM

The biggest problem with resonant inductance (like Witricity) is that it is about 50% efficient, and it takes ~10s to "lock on". Unless these can be improved (especially the locking on part) then getting any significant power transferred to a vehicle moving even at slow speeds seems problematic, at best.

Christ 05-14-2010 11:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NeilBlanchard (Post 174621)
The biggest problem with resonant inductance (like Witricity) is that it is about 50% efficient, and it takes ~10s to "lock on". Unless these can be improved (especially the locking on part) then getting any significant power transferred to a vehicle moving even at slow speeds seems problematic, at best.

Why worry about charging a moving vehicle, when you can just have them charge while they're parked?

Same deal - battery electric car, can go ~100 miles on a charge under current "normal use" conditions (A/C, radio, etc.). How many people really go 100 miles a day, let alone without stopping?

Basically, you're removing the need to plug in the car everywhere you go, and making it such that just parking in an EV-designated parking space will "top off" your batteries (provided you park there long enough...).

I'd think that the "lock on" problem would be mostly a non-issue with that method.

For those that go more than ~100 miles non-stop, well, guess you'll still need your range extender, eh?

Working on the efficiency end of the system will/should enable a faster charge time, though, which means that quick trip into the store to get milk, a magazine, and a pack-o-cancer might just be enough charge to keep the car topped off.

dcb 05-15-2010 07:43 AM

I think folks have gone off the deep end on wireless conveniences.

who REALLY needs a wireless keyboard when the thing never leaves the spot in front of the monitor? Why are those batteries being put into play there?!?

Who REALLY wants to make charging a car inefficient? The parking spot idea is good since it can make physical contact w/the car after some handshake/protocol possible accounting, but the wireless charger is not the best use of energy.

I don't even like cordless mowers, I want my mower to work reliably and always, and man does it have some oomph, puts my old gasser to shame. And I'm not pushing a battery pack over every square inch of the lawn, just have to mow in a pattern away from the outlet so I don't cut the cord.

Convenience can be costly, in materials and efficiency.

NiHaoMike 05-15-2010 09:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NeilBlanchard (Post 174621)
The biggest problem with resonant inductance (like Witricity) is that it is about 50% efficient, and it takes ~10s to "lock on". Unless these can be improved (especially the locking on part) then getting any significant power transferred to a vehicle moving even at slow speeds seems problematic, at best.

If you use existing radio stations (preferably AM due to its relatively low and stable frequency) as the source, there will be no additional draw on the grid. You'll be recovering something that is currently being wasted. It won't be enough to be the only source of power, but it helps.

dcb 05-15-2010 09:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NiHaoMike (Post 174659)
If you use existing radio stations... but it helps.

A typical high power AM station putts out 50000 watts, or 67 horsepower, that is radiating out in three dimensions. The power available to a given sized antenna (say car sized) is a rapidly decreasing fraction of that as you get farther from the transmitter.

If I figure it right (no promises) a saturn sw2 sized rectangle could at most see 1%. or 0.7 hp at 17 feet from the antenna! It gets worse at an accelerating rate the farther you get.

I mean the inefficiencies are obvious, right? We aren't seriously considering wireless en-mass for powering vehicles, for convenience, are we?

RobertSmalls 05-15-2010 10:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dcb (Post 174648)
Convenience can be costly, in materials and efficiency.

Very true. Wireless power transmission is horribly inefficient.


Okay, how about you park (manually! :eek:) next to a charging station, get out of the car, and a little robotic arm dressed up with a tuxedo sleeve and a white glove extends from your car and plugs it in for you?

You'll have all the convenience of wireless with none of the transmission losses.

dcb 05-15-2010 10:23 AM

lol, that might have some appeal for someone, but a couple spring loaded contacts that hit your front bumper, plus some "yes, I'm an EV, it is safe to turn on the power" digital handshake would be pretty pragmatic for the masses.

spydyr 05-15-2010 10:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dcb (Post 174648)
I think folks have gone off the deep end on wireless conveniences.

who REALLY needs a wireless keyboard when the thing never leaves the spot in front of the monitor? Why are those batteries being put into play there?!?


I don't even like cordless mowers, I want my mower to work reliably and always, and man does it have some oomph, puts my old gasser to shame. And I'm not pushing a battery pack over every square inch of the lawn, just have to mow in a pattern away from the outlet so I don't cut the cord.

.


1. I do need a wireless keyboard. I use my tv as a computer monitor and as a tv because I dont have space for both in my livingroom. Since I dont have a desk I use my coffee table thats about 3 feet away. Saves space and time for me.

2. Don't have any outdoor plugs to use so If i use my plug in mower I can only mow up to 10 feet from my backdoor. So I use a reelmower. Works good since I mostly have moss and clover.

dcb 05-15-2010 11:24 AM

re: 1 yup, useful wireless. most wireless keyboards are permanently parked, within a couple feet of the cpu.

re 2: +1, I had a fancy reel mower but managed to break it.

NiHaoMike 05-15-2010 06:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dcb (Post 174660)
A typical high power AM station putts out 50000 watts, or 67 horsepower, that is radiating out in three dimensions. The power available to a given sized antenna (say car sized) is a rapidly decreasing fraction of that as you get farther from the transmitter.

If I figure it right (no promises) a saturn sw2 sized rectangle could at most see 1%. or 0.7 hp at 17 feet from the antenna! It gets worse at an accelerating rate the farther you get.

I mean the inefficiencies are obvious, right? We aren't seriously considering wireless en-mass for powering vehicles, for convenience, are we?

It doesn't quite work that way with resonant circuits.
Nikola Tesla Page, Tesla's power receiver
You'll need superconductors (very high Q) to get useful amounts of power, but if that is solved, then it's possible to build a car that can charge from radio waves.

dcb 05-15-2010 07:04 PM

well superconductors are not exactly new, has anyone actually tried it? Even if they do solve room temperature superconductors (or an antenna in a thermos?) does it make wireless powering of a car efficient? i.e. within a percentage of a wired connection (assuming we get to use superconductors in the grid too)?

Or are there some other assumptions going on here that are not obvious?

Christ 05-16-2010 11:57 AM

I also use my 37" TV as a computer from across the room, which makes a wireless keyboard nice.

I have, however, decided that I will probably make a dummy battery with an inverter so I can plug it into the wall next to my couch, which is more economical than even rechargeable batteries. Frankly, it's not that I care if it's wireless, just that with a 1 year old boy running around, I'd rather not have cords draped across the living room, especially considering his penchant for grabbing all things electrically related and cord sized/shaped. ;)

For the most part, we use the laptop, which is basically a home computer at this point, since the "top o the line" battery only lasts about 20 minutes under idle conditions. It stays plugged in at all times.

Regarding the mower, well, I see no problem with using a reel mower. I did it for 3 years in conditions ranging from crab grass to alfalfa/timothy grass and even a bunch of nettles and thistle in between. It's not really as hard as people think it is, once you get used to walking with your back straight. It really does train posture, though. You can seriously hurt yourself if you don't use them properly. Mine's a little worn out at this point, and could use new wood handles, etc. but the blades will sharpen with the first use of the season.

NiHaoMike 05-16-2010 07:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dcb (Post 174736)
well superconductors are not exactly new, has anyone actually tried it? Even if they do solve room temperature superconductors (or an antenna in a thermos?) does it make wireless powering of a car efficient? i.e. within a percentage of a wired connection (assuming we get to use superconductors in the grid too)?

Or are there some other assumptions going on here that are not obvious?

The main point is to recover some energy that is currently being wasted.

Christ 05-16-2010 07:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NiHaoMike (Post 174844)
The main point is to recover some energy that is currently being wasted.

Microwaves from space!!!!

dcb 05-16-2010 09:12 PM

meh, I don't know if collecting more sun and focusing it on the earth is gonna go over so well with the environment crowd. Or the arguably un-paranoid "don't point that at me" crowd.

re: recover energy, we could turn off most them towers and problem solved :) really that transmitter energy is a drop in the baltic sea. If you are saying lets crank up the transmitters I'm saying let's not cus it isn't efficient.

NiHaoMike 05-18-2010 12:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dcb (Post 174859)
re: recover energy, we could turn off most them towers and problem solved :) really that transmitter energy is a drop in the baltic sea. If you are saying lets crank up the transmitters I'm saying let's not cus it isn't efficient.

It would be easier to develop practical superconductors than it is to shut down most of the transmitters. And using existing infrastructure with wireless power simplifies implementation in the real world.

And on the note of using EVs as mobile power supplies, a friend of mine has thought about it almost 2 years ago!
design exercise: inverter for Toyota Prius - diyAudio
Quote:

For a little design exercise, design a large power inverter for a Toyota Prius. Some possible applications include allowing the Prius to double as an emergency generator, allow it to be used as a mobile power supply, etc. The following conditions apply:
1: Input is the 200v battery pack.
2: Output is 120v and/or 240v AC of at least 1kw (preferably 3kw or more) 60Hz sinewave.
3: The inverter must stay within regulation over the entire range of battery voltage.
4: The inverter should only power up when the car is on and ready to run the engine as needed.
5: The design will *NOT* actually be built. It is only a design exercise.

My thoughts:
* 200v is a good amount over the 170v peak of 120v AC, but I'm not sure how low it goes. If it doesn't go too low, a filtered H bridge should be enough for 120v. For 240v, a means to boost the voltage would be needed.
* The fact that a car would almost always be used on a more regular basis than a standalone generator means that problems would be caught earlier than with standalone generators. It's not uncommon for a standalone generator to break down unknowingly until the moment it is actually needed. In addition, the high power rating and very high peak rating would avoid issues when running large loads like central A/C or large commercial refrigeration.
* The idea can be extended. Think of a Prius as a very powerful mobile power supply and lots of ideas pop up. Businesses in particular might like the idea of being able to use something like a powerful arc welder without access to power.

Once again, it is only a design exercise and will *NOT* actually be built.
It could also be useful for large alternative energy systems with high voltage batteries. Or with a few adaptations, it can be used as a VFD for a motor.

dcb 05-18-2010 07:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NiHaoMike (Post 175065)
It would be easier to develop practical superconductors than it is to shut down most of the transmitters.

Wow, easier to develop superconductors than to pull the plug on the inefficient thing?!? We have a serious disconnect here Mike :) I guess I have been making the assumption that efficiency of the system as a whole was on your radar, maybe that isn't correct? Even with(if) superconducting antennas, given the average distance to AM towers, how efficient do you expect this to be?

Quote:

Originally Posted by NiHaoMike (Post 175065)
And on the note of using EVs as mobile power supplies

Using a prius to make electricity is flawed from an energy saving perspective, as whatever energy you "put back in the wall" will come from gasoline.

But people do use them as "emergency generators" of a sort, have been for years. But whoopie, I have an inverter that runs off a 12 volt battery too, and a $30 garage sale generator, and lots of 12 volt appliances (and a 12 volt solar panel). I wouldn't encourage gasoline generation for anything but an emergency.

NiHaoMike 05-18-2010 12:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dcb (Post 175076)
Wow, easier to develop superconductors than to pull the plug on the inefficient thing?!? We have a serious disconnect here Mike :) I guess I have been making the assumption that efficiency of the system as a whole was on your radar, maybe that isn't correct? Even with(if) superconducting antennas, given the average distance to AM towers, how efficient do you expect this to be?

Since we're not recovering any significant amount right now, the current efficiency is roughly zero. The radio transmitters are already out there. Assuming we cannot shut them down, even 1% is a big improvement over 0%. Superconductors inherently have zero resistance, so efficiency will be determined by the efficiency of the rectifier and the energy used by the support equipment to keep the superconductors operating. At AM radio frequencies, 90% or more rectifier efficiency is not unreasonable. Room temperature superconductors would not need any support equipment to operate.


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