Mazda exec says EPA testing is reason company doesn't have Stop/Start feature in U.S.
 

http://beta.images.theglobeandmail.c..._10221artw.jpg

This is priceless:

Mazda's US head of product development is pointing the finger at the EPA as the reason it doesn't offer automatic engine start/stop technology in its non-hybrids in North America despite it being a proven, low-tech fuel saver.

Many EcoModder members already know that manually shutting down your engine whenever stopped for more than a few seconds is worth significant fuel savings. Mazda estimates automated start/stop is worth a 7-9% fuel economy boost in sub/urban driving.

The start/stop feature is much more common in Europe & Japan even on plain Jane non-hybrid models. So why doesn't the US market have it?

According to Mazda's Robert Davis...

Apparently several auto makers are lobbying the EPA to change test procedures to reward the inclusion of start/stop technology.

Am I misreading this, or are the automakers saying, "if it doesn't help our CAFE numbers, screw energy efficiency and the customer!"

EPA is apparently reconsidering city test numbers for this reason, to give stop/start equipped vehicles a better city rating.

Source: Motor Trend

Hi Darin,

I wonder if the regulation included FE numbers from the FuelEconomy.gov web site, which are actual, self-reported fuel use, that this would do several things: the car companies would get credit for what people were actually doing, and it would be a real world incentive for them to encourage people to actually get good mileage?

For example, my car is a 2005 Scion xA with manual 5-speed: the EPA (2007) ratings for this model are : 27/34/30. There are six people reporting an average of 36.4mpg -- this has to be considered a "combined" number, so Scion/Toyota would get credit for 36+ rather than 30mpg. (By the way, my lifetime average for 226 tankfuls is now above 40mpg!)

https://www.fueleconomy.gov/mpg/cach...fa8256edc1.png
https://www.fueleconomy.gov/mpg/cach...e712792a9b.png

Like someone pointed out on ABG, there's more than one stop on the city test, so I'm thinking the shut-off interval is so long that the only portion they can take advantage of is in the first part of the hot-start phase. The only way the cost can be $500 is if they're charging extra to install the system at the dealer, since only the most expensive stop/start systems w/ regen braking, probably for mild hybrids, are that expensive. So, yeah, if they can't get credit for it, then consumers be damned, they won't bother.

MetroMPG -

Hmmmmm, too bad. Why not offer this as an "eco-option" and charge more money for it like roflwaffle says? I am sure there is a small contingent of people that would pay for this. Try it for one year as an experiment, see what happens, and collect green(washing?) credits in the meantime.

When I think of Mazda, I don't associate them as much with good MPG. I associate them with their "zoom zoom" performance ads. Actually, whenever I have been looking at new cars, it's the EPA MPG ratings of the Mazdas that have crossed them off my list.

I definitely see the benefit of changing the EPA test to reward the start/stop tech. It's a no-brainer. If nothing else, the auto companies should create a very-close-to-EPA test of their own (like an ISO standard) that they can use in their ads. Call it City-SSTech MPG or what not. Build it into the sell.

CarloSW2

I think you are reading it the way it is.
With increasing Gov't intervention the focus shifts from delivering what the customer wants to delivering what the Gov't is telling the car makers to deliver.

Pete.

They want to sell cars, they don't care how, they just want to sell their cars. If people want big, they will make them big. If people want high MPG they build high MPG. Right now they are trying for MPG, and they want as much profit with as little work as they can manage.

The "EPA excuse" is no longer valid for not offering stop/start
 

I was reminded of this old thread when I read about the new "segment first" stop/start system in the 2014 Chevrolet Malibu...

http://ecomodder.com/forum/attachmen...1&d=1381494695

Apparently, the EPA cycles now reveal the benefits of such systems, because it shows up in the Malibu's MPG rating. It even affects the highway rating:

The car is EPA rated 25 mpg city and 36 mpg highway.

Will start-stop eat into hybrid sales?

Nope.
It doesn't really save that much fuel IRL.
It saves a lot on the EU's NEDC though, where vehicles spend a disproportionate amount of time stopped.
That's why it's come about.

Vehicles do spend a lot of time stopped in the city. In the country, not so much.

I don't know if that would really work out :/

Plus, the FE.gov calls BS on certain results. All of my tanks over ~37mpg come with a question mark and say it's too high of mpg- they calculate my LMPG as ~32 ish for public view, while the regular view for me (loaded with question marks lol) is >34.

And as much as you have great drivers, and some ecomodders, the amount of people who replaced their throttle with on/off switches will most definitely cancel it out, or at least bring it closer to the EPA.

And at the same time, the numbers are skewed. I find often when I talk about mods (explain why my car looks goofy, or am excited from a fill up), others don't even KNOW what their MPG is, they either have a guess, "it is usually like 30 bucks," or every so often they look at a standard issue gauge that has never been reset or checked. My point is, until our cars record out mileage and send it somewhere, real world results won't get it*. This point is also that the mileage that is reported isn't done by the majority or people who don't really care (60-90%?).

*As cool as it would be to show the government how great of drivers/modifiers we are, I would rather not pay more money for a tracking & reporting device in my car informing the manufacturer and government of everything I do.

****Beep beep beep beep beep!!!****
Grunt watching screen: Sir, the computer is showing this Mustang is driving in a 35, he is doing 41, and now he turned his engine off...and he is not slowing down!
Commander: Summon the authorities!


10 years ago I thought of them that way, but over the past few years, they have been up to some great stuff. I am totally infatuated with the CX-5, and I am very impressed with their other vehicles utilizing "Sky Active" technology. I am more so impressed with Subaru, but I don't scoff at Mazda, and they are moving up the rank of vehicles I suggest.

I don't get why there isn't an option from every manufacturer for this. I imagine the issue is getting it setup and working properly for every vehicle, I am not sure how difficult it is on an automatic.

In almost everything, you have to ask yourself, "who is this for?". It's almost never for you. It's just that sometimes your interests and theirs are aligned. Higher mpg? Better for them because of CAFE, but only as long as it actually shows up on the tests.

Or to put it another way, follow the money. If this thing costs them money, benefits the customer, but doesn't give them any benefit, why would they offer it? Mazda is a business. They would be a poor business if they didn't make this choice.

Don't think the issue is so much getting it to work, as it is acceptance.

While manufactures could offer these as add-on items they prefer to bundle them in some Eco package charging many thousands more. It would be interesting to see what the cost is for the manufactures to add active grill blocks (shutters) and start-stop systems.

In real life traffic, the Mazda6 onboards claim 3-5 mpg better with the system on versus off. Of course, even with Mazda's i-Stop turned off, the i-ELoop capacitor system still takes some load off the alternator, so it's still not apples to apples.

What I think is clever with Mazda's system is the way it stops the engine with a single cylinder primed to fire. The restarts are eerily seamless for a car without a hybrid assist/starter motor. If all motors could do that, imagine how much we'd save from not having to "crank" the motor in the morning!

The limiting factor in real-world usage is the capacitor bank only stores enough charge to run the AC for two or three minutes. After that's used up, the car has to turn on to run the AC. Haven't tried seeing how long the capacitors can run the car with the AC and stereo off, though. Should be a pretty long time. Still... short stints in traffic... thirty minutes or so (assuming you have a clear run to charge up before you get stuck), the difference is big. If you're sitting in gridlock from the time you turn the engine on till the time you park, not so much.

Be cool if they made the Malibu shut down when coasting, I'm sure the tranny still unlocks when coasting in OD like most GMs, instead of just unlocking the tranny shut down the engine too. I think the last Cobalt auto's could be flat towed so tranny should be or could be OK with it. Probably wouldn't show up the test either, but real world would get to the upper 40's easy with my commute.

This is all very well, but here in Europe they massage the figures somewhat based on start stop in the test cycle.

Here in Europe the whole average published figures are increased, which means if you buy a 50mpg car & never drive in the city you will get nothing like the published figures, they are typically 20%-25% off reality.

Any questions on Skyactive Mazda's I'm your man, just spent the past few months launching the new Mazda6

Have a 60mpg Mazda6 2.2 175ps Diesel, mega thing for blasting over the Scottish back roads
http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j7...ps44f0c4d0.jpg[/URL]

Mazda's Eloop only shows 1MPG increase on the EPA cycle. They are bundling it into the tech package for the highest trim on models.

BTW, it's called Skyactiv.

Potatoe, Potato. :p

Wish we'd get the diesels... still have to wait and see if Mazda finally gets a programming fix for the oiling problems people are seeing elsewhere... but I do believe it's only a matter of time.

As rooster notes about the Malibu, the SkyActiv system would also be so much better if the engine could go off while coasting. Could be another 1-2 mpg EPA from that. Plus you need to fulfill a very strict set of conditions for the motor to turn off at a stop. Any steering angle (waiting at a ramp, or stopped in the turning lane) and the motor won't go off.

If Mazda releases a SkyActiv system with a kill switch, or if someone hacks it so that you can use the start-button to toggle i-Stop, it'd be as perfect as an ICE-only system gets.

Stop/start works just as well with an automatic.
Just a question of wether the manufacturer wants it to work ...


I'm using Stop/start, but it's annoying at times - sometimes the engine is only off for a very short period.
It's anybody's guess how long the starters are going to last....

I realize there is a selection bias that likely skews the self-reported fuel economy average on fueleconomy.gov, but I don't think it's fair to submit your fuel economy when it includes mods that improve the number. There isn't a way to convey to users of fueleconomy.gov that you achieved the results partially by modding your vehicle. It does a disservice to those attempting to compare the vehicle to other models.

While I do employ efficient driving techniques and contribute my MPG to the fueleconomy.gov database, I don't include the improvements that various mods have allowed me. After all, I could simply convert a '76 Eldorado V8 into an electric and claim 100mpg.

That's a fair point. I wish I could upload images and details, but I see what you're saying. It's the same way I feel when I see impressive fuel images here, and find they have one tank they went 10 miles EOCing downhill...lol

I do think that an engine swap or taking a driveline and building everything else different is enough to classify it as something else, but that's kind of like someone putting a supercharger and full bolt ons and internals to their v6, it's not an accurate representation of what a normal user can expect. Heck, a kill switch alone gives great results.

fiat/chrysler introduced stop/starts systems on certian models for 2009. the 300/charger, 2mpg city jump from the previous year.

Compare Side-by-Side

whoops; i might be wrong. but they did introduce something in 2009

http://www.allpar.com/corporate/tech-2009.html

I'd love to be able to add some sort of auto stop/start feature on the Karen-mobile. Maybe something like a shifter momentary button that keeps the engine turned off when I push it, and the brake pedal is applied, and the vehicle is stopped.

In the UK all the Skyactiv cars have stop "except the base model SE" which no-one buys!

By default the system is ON everytime you turn the ignition on & there is a button to turn it off, it works really well on the auto's & the manual the start signal comes off dipping the clutch pedal. Its pretty neat & works well.

It's clever, but it wouldn't last overnight as the engine cools off.

My car also re-starts rather easily, and within the time it takes to get the clutch pedal to the floor, but that's probably due to it being only 1L ;)

The max. charge is always limited to what the battery will hold.
Even without AC or radio on, it's still limited to what the manufacturer put in as excess battery capacity - which is also costing mileage (weight, recharging).
A few stop/starts too soon after one another, and the engine stays on as the battery's reserve capacity gets too low.

When coasting down, it's not using regenerative braking either.

Stop/start is rather tedious in that kind of situation.
By the time it shuts down , it often has to restart again .
One'd be better off trying to keep rolling, even coasting engine on.

Oh, definitely not. The capacitor charge won't even last within the day.

The difference here is SkyActiv doesn't put much stress on the starter or battery due to the way it "primes" itself to fire. How much stress is avoided, however, is not known.

Mazda doesn't use a big battery pack. It's funny, actually, that it seems to have more stored up "stop time" than the CR-Z in similar conditions. The CR-Z has a battery pack taking up two-thirds of the otherwise humongous GE chassis rear cargo box.

The Mazda6, on the other hand, claims a lighter curb weight than its competitors, and if the capacitors take up any trunk space, it's hard to see where. Whereas with something like an Optima hybrid, you've got a lot of chunky hardware eating into the trunk.

There's a deactivation switch, but after trying it both ways, I left i-stop on. Didn't mind the shutdown... and it seemed to do more good than harm (as per the onboards... testing it out full-tank to full-tank would have taken more days than I had with the car). Simply applying less pressure on the brakes kept it from going off at stops I thought would be too short.

Does the Mazda Owners Manual mention anything about an operational "time duration limit" on their engine stop, such as you found by "...simply applying less pressure on the brakes..."?

The engine stop only goes on if your steering wheel is reasonably straight (won't go on if you're turned slightly at the bottom of a parking ramp or in a parking lot) and if you press the brake pedal past the "detent" that tells the car you want full braking power.

As for time limits, no set limit specified in the manual that I saw. (I only had the car a week, and I pored over the manual only twice, looking for more info on the system).

Oops, I did not word my "time duration limit" question well.

Rather, I should have asked "time duration delay" as in does the STOP function activate immediately upon vehicle movement stopping, or is there a slight perceptable delay between when the vehicle stops and when the engine stops?

The Mazda6 capacitor is behind the left headlight unit, its about 1 foot long and 8" in diameter roughly.

Q = C·E

What voltage (E) are they dumping into that capacitor (C), 12-15VDC or something higher?

What Mazda said doesn't surprise me at all. If a fuel economy feature doesn't show up in EPA tests, how is it relevant to the consumer? It adds to the price of the car, but the consumer doesn't have any information that says it will increase fuel economy by a significant amount. That's a loser for business, and Mazda is a business.

Car companies are not trying to build cars that get good MPG, they are building cars that will sell.

It was mentioned in our training they dump high voltage direct from the alternator (definitely not 12V) its in the hundreds of V's I think & there is warning label near the capacitor regards the high voltage too.

I'll have to disagree with the Mazda executives on that matter. I don't see them going to lose some bucks for extending the offer of start-stop feature to U.S.-spec cars.