Messerschmitt
 

When I contemplate my '61 VW panel van parked next to my '71 SuperBeetle, I wonder what should park next to them. It would be smaller and exemplify German engineering and it would be nice to have something with a better fineness ratio than the BMW Isetta—something that would remind one of the VW 1-liter concept.
http://i.imgur.com/ko5xI.jpghttp://i.imgur.com/8BCWW.jpghttp://i.imgur.com/VJ5s4.jpg

The Messerschmitt KR715 and KR200 sold in the tens of thousands. In the United States today (all due respect to the rest of the world) there is probably a population, the size of Germany's in the 1950s, that feels conventional automobiles' purchase price and operating cost are excessive — a potential market for a retro-mobile kit car.

http://i.imgur.com/z6yTI.jpgThe Messerschmitt offered 3- and 4-wheel variants. A side-by-side comparison of both versions would provide good data on the trade-offs of the two configurations.

Here are the basic components of a kabinenroller body—the monocoque shell and the nose piece.
http://i.imgur.com/55eLh.jpghttp://i.imgur.com/RKnZX.jpg

All else required consists of the bolt on pieces, the front fenders, hatch and rear hood. At this point, I want to reference three articles at Autospeed:
Issue: 543/Section: Technical Features /11 August, 2009/Cardboard Cars?
Issue: 516 /Section: DIY Tech Features/3 February, 2009/Building an Ultra Light-Weight Car, Part 1
Issue: 517/Section: DIY Tech Features/10 February, 2009/Building an Ultra Light-Weight Car, Part 2

Small-scale manufacturing of the monocoque would consist of laser-cut pieces and glue. It could reproduce the original 50s styling, or one could customize it with Honda Civic headlights, fastback roofline and '59 Cadillac taillights (I need to Photoshop that), or one could re-skin it completely without the front fenders to resemble a VW Nils.
http://i.imgur.com/PfCFk.jpg
Right down to the gull-wing doors on both sides.

The stock hatch bubble pieces are reproducible:
Issue: 521/Section: Technical Features/10 March, 2009/Custom Bubble Canopies

Because the entire drive train is cantilevered off the back of the cabin, the wheelbase is variable. A tube sub-frame containing a 1938 BMW R72 flat-head flat twin (Chinese PLA 4-speed with reverse, please) feeding a narrow axle would put me on the moon. :)

The kabinenroller design has the driver's feet at the front axle line. An uprated version with the driver straddling the transaxle could have the drivetrain and front suspension of the Robt. J. Riley XR3 in front of the monocoque, so 3-wheel drive and 3-wheel steering is a possibility.

http://i.imgur.com/mvaTg.jpg

There exists a symptom it the computer-human interface world called Gorilla Arm. It's what you get when you use a touch interface on a vertical screen. It may be that using a control system like a recumbent bicycle has, with handle bars on either side of the driver's seat; or a joystick sunk into the right hand wall, would be ergonomically preferable. Early automobiles steered with a tiller that pivoted under the elbow, with your forearm resting on the tiller you grip with your hand. Just point it in the direction you want to go. With electric power steering, this could compete with a wheel.

But that's getting off my topic, so I'll stop here.

I would absolutely drive one of these. Locally at least, not entirely sure about main highways and never on the Interstate...

For roughly the same performance as the Early Classic Messerschmitt, may I suggest the BugE as a starting point?

BugE Main Page Earth for Earthlings

The body kit, with minor modification of the fairing(as in, a complete one) and maybe a beefier suspension would make a great Faux-Messerschmitt glider IMO. Once you've decided on a power source (EV, Gas or Diesel) and perhaps a CVT transmission for Highway speeds if you're brave :D I'm thinking you might have pretty close to what you want.

As far as your Messerschmitt replica goes though-how fast do you want it, how stable do you need it and how durable does it need to be? Are we talking about the early models limited to about 40 MPH or the last models at 58 MPH or so? Also, what is your theoretical budget for this trike, and what is your preferred fuel?

On the EV side, here's what one hobbyist did with his:

Lithium BugE

You'll also note that he then built a beefier, fully-enclosed version by hand later on:

Lithium Hawk

Since I have no budget whatsoever for now or the forseeable future :( i'd be very interested in seeing what you come up with...

All respect to Mark Murphy, he's a great guy. Have you seen the little trailer he made from 2 BugE front fenders?

But that's a neighborhood vehicle. The Lithium Hawk is closer, but you'll notice he decided to upgrade to Mustang II front end components; and he's got that beautifully welded tube frame, all VINed and on the road, but hasn't started on the body.

Better analogs would be:
Arcimoto
Blackjack Zero
XR3
Elios

And this isn't going to turn into a build thread, I'm no closer than you to that. I was wanting to go off-topic in the Elios thread, and there are any number of people designing and (with varying degrees of success) building tadpoles

586 results for "reverse trike build"

So this is a place to collect ideas that might help others in their quest for tadpolehood. And a place to drop the links to some Autospeed articles on fabrication.

And a place to mention things like Liquid Armor for making acrylic windows that you can live with.

Or maybe Photoshop a Messerschmitt done in Westergard style—black with a chopped Carson top, dragging it's tail and a little miniature '40 LaSalle grill with Appleton spotlights. That would be sweet.

The Messerschmitt is really interesting. The traction layout is a good option for a DIY project due to the low cost and simplicity.

So you ARE looking for something to survive the Interstate!

Sorry you're lacking funds to do this for real. Stiil, just as a thought excersise, what is your preferred price range, top speed and torque , preferred power source, size and weight, and expected safety rating? Once we have those parameters locked down on the forum we'll know what might work...

It's really not about me. You may notice I and I rephrase everything into the third person. If one could participate without drawing any attention to oneself I would. Think: Open Source Design Challenge. I'm interested in what everyone else would contribute, just to see where it goes.

That said: Urban travel is the regime of the bicycle. The Interstate System is a mid-range regime. Bonneville is Burning Man without the glitter and feathers. Um, where was I?

I had the pleasure of once following two Minis on I-5. A BMW Mini in the left lane pacing a BMC Mini on the right. The difference in size was instructive. Here's a picture of one of my favorite cars, the 1911 Franklin.http://i.imgur.com/7ewg6.jpg
That seat is less than twice the width of the steering wheel. Think about that.

One could see:

• An exact replica that could trade parts with an original.
• A 'New Messerschmitt' 10% bigger so lard-ass well-fed Americans could fit in one.
• A modern tadpole that shares the monocoque construction of the original, but maybe with FF or 3WD propulsion.

But to respond to your questions:

• Price range: <$6800, otherwise you might just as well wait for the Elios
• Top speed and torque: Same thing, the sky is the limit
• Power source, size and weight: Varies. ICE, electric or hybrid
• Safety rating: We don't need no steenking safety rating, but passing safety inspection at B'ville would be cool.

I guess I'm most interested in buildability. A cut, scored and glued monocoque with front, rear and roof sub-frames and stock drivetrain and suspension components sounds like the low road to success. The key component might be a VW transaxle with inboard 'electric regen' brake/assist.
http://ecomodder.com/forum/showthrea...nto-22746.html
The 1302 transaxle bolts right up to Rabbit/Golf axles and hubs (per the Blackjack Zero builders), and opens the door to everything that's been bolted into a Beetle, for instance steam engines. Here's the an example for the electric part:
http://i.imgur.com/2nxRn.jpg
That's actually Citroen, I couldn't find a picture of the VW transaxle with the inboard brake conversion which was done in the 60s. The stock outboard brakes could remain for parking and downhill in the mountains. And here's a way to put a rollcage/gullwing doors on the tub:
http://i.imgur.com/KptKB.png

The KR500/VW Nils isn't 'off the table', is it?

Maybe I'm getting carried away. A [Formula 1]-safe tub with a late model scooter drivetrain on the back and a go-kart front axle on 1/4 elliptic springs would be capable of freeway speeds. If the axle was reverse-dropped and went over the drivers feet wouldn't it lean correctly in the corners?

OTOH, here's a carbon fiber cage that contains an electric motor, clutchless single speed transmission and Quaife differential, all in the form factor of a Porsche 901 transaxle.
http://i.imgur.com/chjrc.jpg
This would make a sweet EV version of the KR500/VW Nils.

Working out to provide reversibility for parking maneuverings it would be perfect for inner-city commuting. You could take a look at the Fulsamobil, another German cabin 3-wheeler.

You and your inner-city commuting. Stan Mott rode his go-kart around the world:

Stan Mott Page 2

Reverse? A cordless drill motor and a skateboard wheel.

Here's a more complete screengrab on the electric motor:
http://i.imgur.com/6KNJi.png

A cheap knock-off of this and an Open Revolt controller would fit in that VW Nils, or even a KR500.

I posted this elsewhere, so I thought I'd bump this thread, too.
http://i.imgur.com/cCrh5.jpg

A kabinenroller van with open cockpit, front wheel wells, a variable wheelbase and an inflatable 'trunklid'.

In this modern world there is sort of a generalized Rule 34: If you can think of it, it exists out there, somewhere. In the course of my homework, I found a site selling reproductions of the Messerchmitt:
Andy's Modern Microcars
http://i.imgur.com/KAsjL.jpg
They offer the Isetta and others—I like the Gogo Sport
http://i.imgur.com/gCr3p.jpg

Now, in case someone might think otherwise, the orig. Messer was noisy, smoky and twitchy. That why I think in terms of a Neu Messerschmitt. While I don't see me doing a complete running, prototype vehicle, a 1/10th scale R/C 'drone' would, for instance, fit through my door. :)

Using the original steering geometry, if the steering column lay flat on the floor, ending in a 90° gear under the H-point (giggle) the result handlebars would be 50% wider than the dashboard widget. An optimised 4-bar linkage could cause the response to be sluggish straight ahead and progressively high at full lock.

"The Messerschmitt offered 3- and 4-wheel variants. A side-by-side comparison of both versions would provide good data on the trade-offs of the two configurations."

...And?? Rule 34 must apply here too, right? (That KYM link is golden)

A few years back i asked a friend why the rear track on my A1 VW seems to be narrower than the front. He replied that it had something to do with reducing understeer. Perhaps using a tadpole layout would exaggerate that in the extreme?

A little Isetta in its DNA?

If you meant Know Your Meme in general there's also:
Urban Dictionary
https://encyclopediadramatica.se/Main_Page
Memebase - All Your Memes Are In Our Base - internet memes - Cheezburger

And of course there exists a XKCD of it.

And... back to our regularly scheduled thread
http://i.imgur.com/wkxMysx.jpg

Downside to reducing rear track is, as you reduce it, you basically reduce the lever the outside rear wheel has on the chassis to hold the inside front down.

Meaning, you don't really gain at the tadpole point at all - it lifts a wheel and loses traction that way.

RBFuller's theory with the rear steering Dymaxion was that the rear wheel swings out and tracks behind the outside front wheel, kinda like this:
http://i.imgur.com/mxP83.jpg

So, maybe three wheels steering and no leaning in corners? Three wheels perpendicular to the road surface *at all times*?

Edit: That snowmobile pic is now my desktop.

I think that the best wheel layout is four wheels with the rear track narrowed so that they fit inside the aerodynamic envelope; but they provide much better Cg stability than a reverse (tadpole) trike.

Another subtle but critical piece of engineering that can help a lot is 4 wheel steering. Case in point is the Illuminati Motor Works 'Seven' - it has a long wheelbase and it used the rear suspension from a Honda Prelude that has active rear wheel steering. The 'Seven' was the quickest of all the cars tested at the X-Prize through the double lane change test (aka the moose avoidance test). That speaks volumes, I think.

Four wheel steering might also be more efficient, because it might possibly have better coasting?

Maybe, but I'd like to see at least one example of a three-wheel-steering vehicle in the "moose avoidance test".

How could that be possible?

You wouldn't be scrubbing the rear tires in a turn, as they'd either be following the arc of the turn, or they'd be pointed the same direction as the front tires. (Most 4WS systems have a low-speed mode to allow tighter turns, with the rears following the front arc (opposite direction to the front), and a high-speed mode to allow more stable lane changes, with the rears pointing the same direction as the front.)

OK, I can see that.

I just re-read this. You may notice that that is the approach of the design in my profile picture. Along with "Make a Kamm-back by truncating the body at the point of separation'.

I might as well throw this in too:
http://i.imgur.com/BmFcSBs.jpg

Exactly what I proposed doing with the torsion bar tubes; except I wanted lever action shocks built into the trailing arms

That's really odd, but might be fun to drive.

I see I never posted this, prolly because it doesn't have the Lasalle grille and the Appletons:
http://ecomodder.com/forum/member-fr...274f888-z4.jpg

And we now know that the optimal drivetrain would be:
http://ecomodder.com/forum/showthrea...mgr-29878.html

Whoopsie! Time to update the thread. A couple of three things:

•The discussion and picture of the orange race car that don't make no sense? I changed my profile pic (numerous times). Then it was this:

http://i.imgur.com/znzhM.jpg

•I went out today and put down a deposit on an Arcimoto SRK8, an front wheel drive electric reverse tadpole I mentioned in the first post in Jan 2013. They will ship product in second quarter 2016. The first 50 Alpha production models are being built right now.

This furthers my agenda to pit crew at Bonneville Salt Flats. It's roughly 5x5x9 feet and could either run as a open-wheel 'belly tank' style or a full envelope 'Schlorwagen' streamliner. In plan the fineness ratio is 2.94:1. I haven't found the kilowatt or horsepower rating of the twin motors yet so it's hard to estimate against the expected CdA. Stock it's rated at 1023lb, 0—60 in 7.5 and 85mph top speed.

So maybe 120-130mph?

•The panel van mentioned in first post is gone and the Superbeetle is looking fragile and too valuable to drive.

Edit: Almost forgot. This turned up and it's on-topic here:

http://www.cree.ch

http://www.cree.ch/images/sam_black_front34_light.jpg
http://www.cree.ch/images/rack_side_light.jpg
http://www.cree.ch/images/butthigh_softside_light.jpg

The kabinenroller approach: rear-engine monocoque. The front suspension seems to have a fiberglass (or basalt?) half-elliptic monoleaf spring.

Pretty much what I was looking for when I started the thread. Now it's a Messerschmitt shell with the quarter-sphere front fenders and side-hinged bubble top draped over an Armimoto armature, Westergard style.

Like this:

http://ecomodder.com/forum/member-fr...274f888-z4.jpg

The problem with 4 wheels is on a commercial scale you are building a car and then have to go through all the high safety and emissions requirements. This explosion of 3 wheel concepts is because they are motorcycles and avoid most of the issues. My fear is that loophole will be short lived. Basically get them while they are hot (and legal). Not that they can't be made to car requirements, just that they won't be any less expensive or better performing in any category. I wish we would go the other way any allow the "unsafe" Indian cars in. You should be given the choice as to what level of safety you want. I can check my tire pressure with a $2 Guage and look in a mirror before backing up thank you very much.

As long as they're still not marketed as real cars, the loophole is not so likely to be phased out...