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-   -   Mild electric hybrid using a Permanent magnet PMG 132 motor? (https://ecomodder.com/forum/showthread.php/mild-electric-hybrid-using-permanent-magnet-pmg-132-a-20848.html)

Ryland 03-05-2012 11:19 PM

Mild electric hybrid using a Permanent magnet PMG 132 motor?
 
I've read about the motor/alternator that was being marketed to replace a stock alternator to make a mild series hybrid and I think GM is doing something along those lines with the new Buick's and people have talked about building their own that would work the same way, but so far I haven't seen anyone do it, one complexity would of course be getting enough power out of a 12v motor and fitting a 12v motor in the location of the alternator that was powerful enough to do any usable work, so it seemed kind of pointless, of course you could use a higher voltage motor/alternator but then you need a dc to dc converter too.
Then today I was thinking about how my Civic has a large empty spot where the A/C would bolt on, it's right at the front of the engine with threaded holes for the compressor to bolt to the engine block, so why not make a bracket to allow a motor like the E-tek or a Perm PMG 132 to bolt on in that location? specs on the Perm PMG 132 seem to say that it can handle over 12,000 RPM (red line on my Civic VX is 6,000 RPM) to a 2 to 1 reduction would work, spinning the motor at 4,000 RPM while the gas engine was puttering along at 2,000RPM.

My thought for throttle is to try to keep the engine in lean burn, so low load and that is measured by manifold vacuum, as vacuum drops power to the motor increases, when vacuum is high, as in when the ECU is told to cut fuel to the fuel injectors then regen braking should start to ramp up, I haven't yet worked with programming speed controllers, but as I understand it, you can program how fast things like regen ramp up and how strong, if possible it seems like two regen settings would be ideal, one for when engine vacuum is high and another for when the brake lights come on, I don't think most speed controllers are set up to work like that, but that is an area that I need to check in to more.

A lot of speed controllers also have a half power setting, for going in reverse or for letting someone else use the vehicle, it seems like this half power setting could be used as a "long trip" setting, where you want the battery pack to last longer.
I of course thing this would be best as a plug in hybrid, 72v is the max of what those motors are rated for and because it's not powering the car all on it's own that seems like enough to give it an added boost to keep it in lean burn all the time.

Am I missing something? it seems like a project that could be done for a few thousand dollars and have it work well or cobble it together for a grand.
Anyone care to pick it apart or steel the idea and build it?

bryn 03-05-2012 11:25 PM

i like it!

Daox 03-06-2012 08:54 AM

Do you think that your accessory belt can transmit that much power?

What you're thinking of doing is quite similar to Brucey's hybrid setup except he used a low voltage AC motor setup. His gains were alright. I expect yours to be better because of the lean burn engine. If you can get it to keep you in lean burn all the time you should see a decent gain.

It would be much better if you could seperate the motor from the engine though. I was just talking to Ben Nelson last night about this. I think a series wound or PM motor off of the 2nd transmission shaft (not the input shaft) of a manual transmission would work much better because it would allow you go full EV. My idea also incorperated a freewheeling clutch to eliminate brush wear when the motor isn't in use. The downside is that you don't have a transmission to assist with an additional gear reduction. But, when talking with Ben, he normally drives his Metro in 3rd gear which is nearly a 1:1 ratio.

Ryland 03-06-2012 09:27 AM

The A/C has it's own drive belt, so that is a good question, anyone know how much power it takes to turn the A/C compressor?
Power can be limited to the speed controller as well, but the Perm motors are only rated for 10hp and 19hp peek and so I'll see if I can dig up how much power a single V-belt can handle, it seems like most ridding lawn mowers and other devices with 15 to 20 hp gas engines still use V-belts to drive everything right off the engines main drive shaft.

Ken Fry 03-06-2012 12:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryland (Post 291430)
Anyone care to pick it apart or steel the idea and build it?

I stole the idea and built it! My POC prototype uses a couple of very similar PM motors.

The Perm motor has a speed constant of about 45 rpm/v, so at 96 volts goes about 4500 rpm. I doubt that they are able to stay together at 12,000 rpm. That would also equate to 266 volts -- far above the motor's maximum voltage rating, I'd think. I'd evaluated the Perm for my POC (and subsequent production) and it is a great motor, but brushed (a maintenance and RMI issue) and not quite the right voltage constant for my project. The Perm people (in Germany) are straight shooters and helpful, so if you want to pursue this, contact them.

My POC is 540 lb, and a motor of this size works fairly well -- albeit only with a multi-speed gearbox. (With a single reduction, getting a useful top speed means a reduction that does not yield enough wheel torque for good hill climbing.)

(Series motors and AC induction motors are a little better in this regard, but not perfect. Tesla's original idea of using a two speed box was appropriate, even with their AC induction motor. You cannot claim that 120 mph top speed is "supercar" performance: it's less than the top speed of my 2010 Honda Civic. So they went for acceleration alone, (at which it is excellent). The Tesla's peak HP would allow it to go faster than the Lotus equivalent, if it had a two-speed box. )

Quote:

but as I understand it, you can program how fast things like regen ramp up and how strong, if possible it seems like two regen settings would be ideal, one for when engine vacuum is high and another for when the brake lights come on,
Yes, this stuff is very easy to implement with a PM motor. You can have any amount of regen controlled by a pot, (or a digital pot controlled by a microprocessor). For an aware driver regen under direct control of the driver (press harder on the brake pedal, more regen) is simple and works better than automated "profile" systems (econ, power, etc.) none of which know what's ahead on the road... often the most energy efficient option is coasting, maintaining hard-earned kinetic energy. There is no current system implemented in EV's that can do as well as a good driver with full control over regen amount and timing. Especially annoying to me are the systems the apply regen on trailing throttle: with each undulation in the road, the system toggles between power and regen (which feels clutzy-jerky, but also wastes kinetic energy that an intelligent driver can put to good use.) If you really need to come to a stop, regen is the way to do it, and then you want the maximum amount you can get while still being safe (not locking wheels on slippery surfaces, for example).

The idea of a series hybrid is to keep the engine running at peak efficiency or not at all. Lean burn operates only under light load, so you really don't want to help the engine stay in a light load scenario. If it is trending into that area, it should be off entirely. Most Hondas are less efficient in lean burn mode than in normal mode... in other words the actual bsfc is worse at 10 hp in lean burn that at 50 hp in stoich mode. So you want the engine always running at 50 hp or not at all. This requires series hybrid architecture, so that when the engine is running at less than 50 hp (meaning the battery charging load has dropped off) you shut it off.

The beauty of a simple series hybrid (unlike the inefficient Volt multimode system) is that the engine runs at peak BSFC or not at all. Any system that drifts away from that concept can quickly become inefficient (thus the crummy Volt gasoline fuel efficiency numbers relative to the Prius). A series hybrid does energy conversions in which efficiency is lost, so getting high efficiency requires optimizing everything, to make up for the gasoline-to-electricity-to-chemical-to-electric-through-motor losses.

Just try to model everything as closely as you can before laying out money. It is hard to match a really thoroughly-engineered hybrid (like the original Insight or the Current Prius) in terms of carrying ability vs fuel usage.

Quote:

and because it's not powering the car all on it's own that seems like enough to give it an added boost to keep it in lean burn all the time
Sounds like you are thinking of a parallel hybrid. In a true series hybrid, only the electric motor powers the car. In a parallel hybird, the ICE and electric motr can work together, in parallel.

BTW, be aware that if you drive the motor at twice engine speed you will have halved its torque for propulsion purposes.

Ken Fry 03-06-2012 12:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryland (Post 291520)
I'll see if I can dig up how much power a single V-belt can handle, it seems like most ridding lawn mowers and other devices with 15 to 20 hp gas engines still use V-belts to drive everything right off the engines main drive shaft.

Gates has a V-belt calculator online that can come up with recommendations from their whole line. V-belts can handle hundreds of HP. Toothed belt can handle loads of HP, too, will not slip, and are more efficient than almost any alternative -- they can easily be 98% efficient.

Ryland 03-06-2012 05:04 PM

Sorry, my mistake with the title, would this be a mild hybrid then?
Yes, I realize that I would use less gas if the engine was not running at all, but without pulling the stock drive train or adding a 5th wheel or doing some funky set up with bolt on wheel motors, it seems like there is no good way to do an ad on hybrid drive train, also Honda Civic's are common enough that if this does work then there are a ton of people who could copy it.
There is a guy on EV album who has a civic cx converted to electric that getting 205 watt hours per mile under ideal conditions on pure electric power, I assume that is at 55mph or so, that would be over 11,000 watts at a steady speed or about 15hp, more then these little 10hp motors can handle, but being able to provide half of that would be a large load taken off the engine and my goal is not to build a pure electric car, I have a pure electric car already, but being able to offset my gasoline use on longer trips or when I need to haul more stuff or people then my two seat electric car will handle is the goal.
I also agree with the idea of plotting it all out on paper before putting any cash in to parts, of course all of the parts that would be used would also work well for an electric motorcycle, go cart, powered bicycle trailer or any number of other electric vehicle projects and I don't see any way that this could hurt my current gas mileage other then the added weight and V-belt, so it's only going to improve and if my other options for getting 70mpg is to spend $5,000 on a Honda Insight and be back where I don't have much more space then my two seat electric car then it seems like a worth while project to think about and well within a lot of peoples price range and skill set.

Daox 03-06-2012 05:15 PM

Any worries about brush wear when the electric motor isn't in use?

mort 03-06-2012 05:32 PM

Hi Ryland,
I don't mean to be discouraging, I'd like to see this work. But here's what I see, you are going to add a fairly large weight of batteries and a motor in order to run your engine a lower and less economical power level. The efficient motor will make up for the inefficient engine. What you do about batteries will make all the difference. If the batteries increase the car's weight by 5%, then the engine efficiency must not fall more than 10% (assuming rolling and wind resistance are equal at cruise). Without a map of the engine nobody knows. But consider that at cruise the engine might be 25% efficient, but at 1/2 cruise power it could drop to 22.5% efficient.
-mort

On reading this I think I sound too pessimistic. The engine will be making 1/2 as much power too, so efficiency could drop by 20% and you could still be ahead. It looks better to me the more I think about it.

mort 03-06-2012 05:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryland (Post 291520)
anyone know how much power it takes to turn the A/C compressor?

Hi Ryland,
A small car A/C takes about 5 hp at the worst, and half that in more moderate conditions. Automotive belts are in the "L" series. 3L is 3/8 wide across the wide face. 5L (5/8") are the widest Vee belts you'll see on cars. Vee belts are rated by power and load capacity. For instance the water pump is running all the time the engine is, and the pump power is related to rpm so the water pump belt has a load capacity of 1. The belt must be rated for the full pump power to have a normal service life. The alternator belt only sees maximum load 1% of the time, so it can be down rated to a fairly "weak" belt and still have a long service life. Your motor might see maximum power a few percent of the time; 10 or 20? So a belt rated at 1 HP, (I think 5L just get to 1 HP) might work OK. Before wide multi groove belts got popular some cars used 2 parallel belts for the A/C.

-mort

mort 03-06-2012 06:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daox (Post 291658)
Any worries about brush wear when the electric motor isn't in use?

Me again.
Hi Daox,
Brush wear is proportional to brush current, and other things. For HP size motors brush wear with no current is about 5% as fast as at continuous rated power. If the motor is pushed (unpowered) all the time it is a problem, but if you power the motor half the time brush wear won't be much faster than usual.
-mort

Ken Fry 03-06-2012 07:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryland (Post 291654)
Sorry, my mistake with the title, would this be a mild hybrid then?
Yes, I realize that I would use less gas if the engine was not running at all, but without pulling the stock drive train or adding a 5th wheel or doing some funky set up with bolt on wheel motors, it seems like there is no good way to do an ad on hybrid drive train, also Honda Civic's are common enough that if this does work then there are a ton of people who could copy it.

This may be more complicated than you want to go, but you could find the rear end from a CRV, and do a through-the road hybrid. (Granted, mounting this stuff in the back of Civic might make you want to just buy a or swap a CRV.) This would have the advantage that you could drive with the engine off at low speeds.

If your goal is mainly to displace driving energy from gas to electric, using the car as a plug-in hybrid, then efficiency is less of an issue. The bigger the battery pack the more displacement.

If you are thinking more along the lines of home-brewed IMA, then to gain overall efficiency, you need to make the engine smaller, so it is operating at best bsfc more of the time.

Interesting, I'll have to think a bit.

Ryland 03-07-2012 12:01 AM

I've gotten 65mpg while driving 70mph just because I had a tail wind, wouldn't this be like having a constant tail wind?
Changing the whole rear suspension and adding another drive train is not something I'm interested in doing, bolting a motor to existing threaded holes and using an existing V-belt pulley is a modification I'm willing to do to my otherwise stock car that is in great shape.
I'm thinking that the big hold up on this is going to be a battery pack, because I don't want to fill my trunk with golf cart batteries I'll most likely hold off on this project until I buy the lithium battery pack for my electric motorcycle, I'll have to double check but I think that might fit where the A/C condenser would live, or at least a portion of the battery pack could, the spare tire well would be another option.
Mort, do you have any charts on how much power V-belts can handle? I would imagine it's dependent on pulley size, larger being better up to the point where the belt over speeds.

mort 03-07-2012 02:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryland (Post 291754)
Mort, do you have any charts on how much power V-belts can handle? I would imagine it's dependent on pulley size, larger being better up to the point where the belt over speeds.

Hi Ryland,
For a quick reference I see the Grainger catalog...
L and A B C size belts start on page 127 with power ratings. page 128 to buy belts and sheaves start on 143.
Look at the BX size belts, they should fit an automotive A/C pulley.
-mort

Ken Fry 03-07-2012 12:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryland (Post 291754)
I've gotten 65mpg while driving 70mph just because I had a tail wind, wouldn't this be like having a constant tail wind?

It depends on your philosophy, the efficiencies of the pieces in the chain, and how you are charging the batteries. The tailwind energy comes from an outside, completely free source. The motor energy comes from your fuel, if you are proposing an IMA-style hybrid.

Here are two possibilities:

1. If all the energy to boost the car comes from the grid, then you are getting the extra umph to get the tailwind effect at very low cost. Definite gain in essentially every respect, including environmental (although in North Dakota, it could be close to a toss up re carbon footprint -- because they are so heavily into coal).

2. At the other extreme would be a system in which the car still idles at stop lights, and in which regen is not used for braking, and in which the batteries are charged by loading the engine more heavily during cruise (at which time the engine operates at better bsfc than it would at cruise, because it is now producing, say, 23 hp of which 8 are used for charging and 15 are used for propelling the car. This one would not plug in, and work like Honda's IMA system.

You'd have to look at the bsfc chart for your engine, but I'd guess that the engine might be 24% efficient at 23 hp, and 22% efficient at 15hp. Assume the generator is 85% efficient, and the controller is 95% (both of these vary with load, etc, but these could be realistic averages), and that you use lithium x batteries that are 95% efficient each way in receiving and delivering charge. Then, for each unit of energy delivered from the engine to the generator there is an amount delivered back to the engine pulley by the motor at a later time. So we start with say 8 hp-hours delivered from engine to generator during one hour of cruising/charging. The energy returned at some later point is 8 x .85(gen) x .95(cont) x .95(bat in) x .95 (bat out) x .95(cont) x .85(mot) = 4.7 hp-hours out. To do better than break even, then, the electric propulsion aid would have to be delivered when the engine would otherwise be operating at 4.7/8 x .24 = 14% efficient. So if you could turn the engine off (disconnect it from the system mechanically too) and used the electric motor for propulsion at low speeds, you gain efficiency. But if you are using say 10 hp from the engine (at .18 effic) and 10 hp boost from the electric motor (at .14effective efficiency) then you'd be better off to put all the load on the engine, and get 20 hp at .24 efficiency.

The IMA system has no belt losses, and the motor-generator is highly efficient (95% in a wide area of speeds and loads). The whole system is well optimized for what it is. But the difference in around-town mileage for the 2010 Hybrid Civic (40 mpg) and the 2010 Prius (50 mpg) highlights the limitation of the IMA system: for it to be effective, the engine really needs to be too small to achieve desired performance levels, so that the engine is operating at high efficiency levels (heavily loaded) most of the time. The the electric motor can make up for the low engine power to provide acceptable performance. If the engine is already large enough to provide acceptable performance, then you loose the opportunities to drive it at high loads (high efficiency levels) because to do so means you are driving too fast.

HOWEVER...

This ignores the possibilities for idle stop and regen. With them, you can gain back some of the losses of all the energy conversions. The effectiveness in doing so depends upon how you are already driving: if you spend a lot of time on the highway, regen is essentially useless. Remember that hybrids like the Prius are automatically implementing pulse and glide effects (in combination with a host of other refinements). If you are already using techniques like pulse and glide, then hybridization is less attractive.

But back to the first case, where you charge from the grid (or better, from solar panels). Then you are getting the energy at a very low price and not using gasoline to provide the energy to charge the batteries.

Re batteries: Lead acid can be helpful for prototyping, because of low initial cost: use them for a while, then recycle them. For long term usage, lithium x have reached the point where they cost less than lead acid, per mile.

Another battery issues: For regen on a car the size of the civic, it would be nice to use up to 200 amps at 72 volts (which the motor can handle periodically). (This enables the car to decelerate roughly as well as it accelerates on almost 20 hp.) This means that the battery pack should be able to charge at 200 amps. Depending on chemistry, that may mean a larger pack than would be dictated by other concerns alone.

Ryland 03-07-2012 03:23 PM

I must have left that bit out, yes, I would like this to be a plug in hybrid seeing as how I'm already set up to plug in my electric car at home and at work, because of the added complexity and added motor wear I was thinking it might be worth forgetting about the regen braking and putting a free wheel on the motor so it only spins when it's powered up, advantage would be less drag when the electric was not being used and less motor wear and a simpler design, disadvantage of course would be no regen braking and that I'm not sure who makes heavy duty free wheel ratchets.

Ken Fry 03-07-2012 05:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryland (Post 291909)
... disadvantage of course would be no regen braking and that I'm not sure who makes heavy duty free wheel ratchets.

Formsprag is the "Xerox" of the freewheeling clutch world (sprag clutch is the generic term.)

Automatic transmissions use them too, but you'd have more work to do to get one to fit, sealing in the lubricant, etc.

Ditching regen would open up the possibility of using a series motor, which might or might not fit more easily (a series motor being longer but skinnier.) I can imagine a 6.7 inch series motor possibly tucking in where the alternator often is on Hondas -- but I am just guessing. Series motors should be cheaper, not having the expensive magnets, and can be almost as efficient, but heavier.

Could be a pretty cool project.

It would be fun to make series hybrid with your Commutacar. Squeeze in an efficient generator (like a Perm, etc.) and a 5hp continuous engine, and you'd have it. Then you could be the first Commutacar to drive coast to coast (maybe). (Actually, I just checked... no such luck.)

Ryland 03-07-2012 06:16 PM

I might go with a series wound motor, something like a golf cart motor would work well and give more peek HP and low end torque, but they might not do well with high speeds (6,000 RPM red line of the gas engine), so yeah a free wheel, I'd also have to make an end plate for it as golf cart motors don't have them, or I could try to talk my dad out of his 36v series wound motor that is sitting in the garage as that one has an end plate and normal shaft but is not something everyone else can get their hands on, those motors are also sealed up for the most part, so dust, dirt and water wouldn't be as much of an issue.
Time to take some measurements, will a 6.7" by 9" motor fit where the A/C compressor lived?

Ryland 03-30-2012 01:18 PM

I still haven't had a chance to try building anything yet, but I was thinking about how at least the newest Prius is a beltless car, there is no belt driven alternator or water pump or even A/C, it's all electric, running off the drive battery pack with a DC/DC converter to get the 12v power for lights, why not do that same thing with a plug in like this? pull the alternator all together (10% mpg gains, right?) my other thoughts on keeping the throttle simple would be to have the electric motor match the throttle of the gas engine then have a trim knob on the dash that gives more or less boost with an EV button or thumb throttle for when you have your foot off the gas (fuel cuts off) and want to cruise along a flat road at say 25mph in 5th gear, not using any gas.

If I can get a golf cart motor to work then I might try to build this this summer, I just have a lot of other projects going on that I need to take care of first.

Daox 03-30-2012 02:44 PM

I like the idea of a thumb throttle on the shifter. It gives you full control.

Ryland 03-30-2012 03:12 PM

Thing is, a lot of the throttles are just a 0-5k ohm pot with a micro switch to turn it off 100% when it's at -0- so adding another resister in there to vary the input is pretty easy, same with having another throttle in parallel, so say you tend to drive only a few miles to work every day, you can crank up the boost and once up to speed take your foot off the gas, keep the car in gear and use the thumb throttle to maintain speed for a few miles, not as efficient of course as it would be if the engine was not turning at all, but much simpler.

blownb310 04-04-2012 10:00 PM

I like the mild series hybrid idea being discussed in this thread. Especially the simplicity of bolting on a motor where the A/C compressor would be. Regarding a sprag setup for the assist motor, I'm wondering if an a/c compressor clutch could be used?

I have a particularly long hill that I have to climb going to work every day. I'd love to be able to add about a 5 h.p. assist while climbing it. I know nothing about electric motor technology, but I wonder if a starter motor could be used somehow? [I'm trying to think of a cheap source of a powerful low voltage DC motor.]

Mike

Ryland 04-04-2012 11:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blownb310 (Post 298140)
I'm wondering if an a/c compressor clutch could be used?

there would be very little reason not to have the electric motor spin with the gas engine, an electric clutch like an A/C clutch would add more weight, drag and add to the electrical power needed.

Quote:


I have a particularly long hill that I have to climb going to work every day. I'd love to be able to add about a 5 h.p. assist while climbing it. I know nothing about electric motor technology, but I wonder if a starter motor could be used somehow? [I'm trying to think of a cheap source of a powerful low voltage DC motor.]
A starter motor tends to over heat if you use it for more then 10-15 seconds at a time, that is why your owners manual often tells you to let it rest for 10 minutes for every 10-15 seconds of cranking over, if your car does not start, they are working at their max output just to turn the engine over.
Part of my idea of using a Golf Cart motor is that you can buy them used for about the cost of a rebuilt starter motor, or about $150, only they are a much larger motor that is designed for a more sustained use, they do have the draw back of not having a support bearing on the drive end, but I see that as an advantage, make that bearing support part of the bracket that holds it to the vehicles engine block.

Daox 04-05-2012 08:08 AM

If your electric motor is putting out any reasonable amount of power, there is no way an A/C clutch is going to be able to hold that much torque.

Have you looked into how much the overrunning clutch is going to cost Ryland?

Ryland 04-05-2012 09:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daox (Post 298204)
If your electric motor is putting out any reasonable amount of power, there is no way an A/C clutch is going to be able to hold that much torque.

Have you looked into how much the overrunning clutch is going to cost Ryland?

Looks like I can get the bearing clutch that is used in a heavy duty over running clutch for $111 or so from Mcmaster Carr, it can handle 59 foot pounds of torque, Specs for the NetGain Warp 7 motor seems to say that it's peek torque is around 45 foot pounds and that is a slightly larger motor then a standard golf cart motor.
But I don't think a clutch would be needed at all, at least not with my idea of having the motor throttle match the gas engine throttle so the motor is always giving a little boost, the only time I could see you not wanting the motor to run would be a cross country trip where you didn't have a chance to charge, but even with an 8 hour trip a 100 amp hour, 48v battery pack would be able to sustain a 600 watt draw, so after losses maybe half a HP of added power, if it really takes 15hp to maintain highway speed then that would be a 3% gain in your worst case of driving 8 hours straight, of course when was the last time you drove 8 hours straight? that's why we have trains and airplanes! and your biggest gains would be while driving short trips where you could use the whole 4,800 watt hours (just an educated guess at pack size) over the course of a 5-10 mile trip to off set gasoline use.

jdchmiel 04-05-2012 09:42 AM

If the electric motor has very good bearings, wouldn't spinning it at a continious RPM really not eat up very much efficiency? Like on a purely cost basis, if the only significant benefit to adding an overrun clutch is to save brush life, how long do the brushes last, and how much do they cost, and how difficult is it to service the motor? How does that level of time, effort, and money compare to custom building an overrun pulley system?

Contrasting opinion side note, Ford Crown vic police alternators are 200 amp units that I think are 5 or 6 groove wide pulleys with a built in overrun. I bought two of them off ebay for around $100 total to use to build a tig welder. I do not know what kind of power they would handle continiously, but they must be rated for intermittant ~3.7 hp based on 14v @ 200 amps output..

And another fun thought - a timing belt transmits a lot more power on a continious basis.. If you can get rid of all of your other accessory belts, you can add a second crank timing pulley in place of the main crank pulley for a drive belt, and adapt another geared pulley to your motor. You can get that pulley from a timing belt + idler kit from many motors. for instance, my subaru flat 4 had 3 if I recall that were about the same diameter as the crank pulley for a close to 1:1 drive, and the cam gears obviosly are always a 1:2 ratio on all engines. Garages just throw many of these out all the time for each timing belt job they do!

Ryland 04-05-2012 10:02 AM

My mistake, I was looking at the wrong chart, the warp7 puts out 65 foot pounds, but again, it's a larger motor and I don't think that a clutch is needed, a set of brushes costs $50 for low quality ones from any golf cart shop and $45 for high quality ones from Helwig Carbon and they should last a long time because they will be under very little stress, after all they would only be helping the engine along, not moving the whole car.

Daox 04-05-2012 10:26 AM

That is kind of what I was thinking too. If Mort's 5% rating is true I don't think you'll be burning through brushes that fast at all.

Oddly enough I know a guy from our local EV club who works at Helwig in their test lab. He got me some new higher efficiency brushes for my mower's motor. Great guy to talk to about motors.

ncwa 04-05-2012 07:24 PM

Hi Everyone - I am glad to see other people interested in this approach! I converted my 1966 Mustang into a plug-in-hybrid a little over a year ago. It was a really fun, yet challenging project. There were a few times during the build where I had to pause and really think about where the gas and electricity were running around the car (yikes!). I also had my share of burned out or incorrect parts, but all in all I am very pleased with the results.

I considered mounting the motor in the location of the “optional” ac compressor but ended out locating the 30Kw peak brushless PM motor under the headers replacing the alternator. I had to build custom mounts and triangulate them to the engine block. I am currently using an oversized v belt. I am “waiting” for it to break but so far it is holding up like a champ! I can start the gas engine with this set up (triggered by throttle advance) but the belt slips, so I don’t often use this method. I haven’t found the right pulleys for this motor (straight 200) to allow me to switch to a synchronized belt. Once I do, I will be able to properly start/stop the ICE!

The car is zippy and makes really unique sounds! The dash is loaded with gauges (I guess that makes me an engineer!). It is great to watch the amps rise up with intake vacuum rise, indicating less fuel flow. It is also rather entertaining to modify my dual throttle advance curves (slope and start points) to discover unique performance characteristics.

A smaller engine running closer to peak efficiency would likely yield better results, as would a proper ICE! I started with around 12-15 mpg’s on this old worn motor. A local shop helped me tune it to the high teens. Aero mods (under the car) were by far the best value mods bringing my mpg’s up to the mid 20’s! Then with the hybrid system, I am now seeing 30-35 mpg’s without hypermilling! I know, I know, these are low numbers for you pros, but this is big step for me ;) Someday I might rebuild the ICE and switch to 5-speed, allegedly bring my mpg’s up to 30 – then with the aero mods and 30 Kw electric motor, I might do even better! Hey I can dream right! I might even have to start hypermilling if I can find the right pulleys…

Good luck to you on your explorations!

steffen707 04-06-2012 12:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryland (Post 291754)
I've gotten 65mpg while driving 70mph just because I had a tail wind, wouldn't this be like having a constant tail wind?
Changing the whole rear suspension and adding another drive train is not something I'm interested in doing, bolting a motor to existing threaded holes and using an existing V-belt pulley is a modification I'm willing to do to my otherwise stock car that is in great shape.
I'm thinking that the big hold up on this is going to be a battery pack, because I don't want to fill my trunk with golf cart batteries I'll most likely hold off on this project until I buy the lithium battery pack for my electric motorcycle, I'll have to double check but I think that might fit where the A/C condenser would live, or at least a portion of the battery pack could, the spare tire well would be another option.
Mort, do you have any charts on how much power V-belts can handle? I would imagine it's dependent on pulley size, larger being better up to the point where the belt over speeds.

I WANT ONE! I've seen a civic with a huge supercharger bolted to front of the engine where the A/C goes. This is an awesome idea you came up with. I look forward to reading the rest of the thread, and hope your plans come to fruition. My civic with vx engine is awesome in lean burn, but quickly falls out of it on on slight hills. I imagine a 10hp external boost would keep it in lean burn far longer.

drmiller100 04-06-2012 10:34 AM

65 foot pounds is a LOT of force. IMO even 10 foot pounds at a reasonable RPM would make a big difference and be a lot cheaper.

why not use freon and your existing AC compressor?

Ryland 04-06-2012 11:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drmiller100 (Post 298575)
65 foot pounds is a LOT of force. IMO even 10 foot pounds at a reasonable RPM would make a big difference and be a lot cheaper.

That motor wouldn't put out 65 foot pounds all of the time, that figure is at something like 412 amps, 48v so the motor would be under a lot of load, 10 foot pounds is 113 amps or about 5.5hp http://www.go-ev.com/images/003_05_0...preadSheet.jpg but as I said, that Warp 7 motor is a little larger then the cheaper more common golf cart motor, but I'm sourcing it's specs because it's only .55" larger around and it's other specs look pretty close, also if someone wanted to use an off the shelf motor it would be a good choice.

Quote:


why not use freon and your existing AC compressor?
I don't fallow you there, how can I use freon to and an ac compressor to power my car? aside from that my civic doesn't have A/C, it was an option but it was never added, seems like that is the case with about half of the civics of the same vintage as mine, leaving a large open space where I can bolt something to the engine block with a straight shot to the crank shaft pulley.

ncwa 04-10-2012 01:44 AM

Has anyone looked at rewiring your alternator? I haven’t studied that style of a conversation in detail but I bet you could go from a parasitic 1 hp draw to a 1 hp electric assist (2 hp net!). Unless you want to get fancy with a controller that can regen at low battery levels, you’ll just need to make sure you have enough battery power to make it to your destination! (FYI – I do regen at low battery levels, breaking, and idle – which did forced me to buy and not build the controller).

Ryland 04-10-2012 10:10 AM

My alternator is less then a 1hp electrical draw seeing as how it has a 60 amp fuse, I haven't looked for a while at how hard it is to turn an alternator in to a motor but it's more then just rewinding it, you need a hale effect sensor to see where in the rotation it is and an AC speed controller, all in all it seemed like a lot more work then pulling the alternator and replacing it with a dc to dc converter and more costly then bolting a $150 golf cart motor on where the ac compressor would bolt on if my car came with one, DC motor speed controllers are also cheap and common, I forgot that I even have a spare that I bought because it was $100.


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