Which mirror has better aero
 

Haven't posted in a couple years, but I have a new mpg focused project. Its a 2003 s10 that I will be focusing
heavily on aero mods. Wondering which mirror would have better aero.

First is a 94-05 "street scene" knock off style sport mirror.
Second is a BMW M3(E36) style mirror made to fit an s10

Why not peep mirrors?

https://www.mooneyesusa.com/v/vspfil...che=1384539363
https://www.mooneyesusa.com/product-p/gt150cv.htm

They're available in 3" and 4" sizes. A pair of 3" mirrors for $41.00 on eBay. They're available with built-in turn signal repeaters.

The A-pillar is a problematic area aerodynamically. The door top is closer to the driver's eye.

I have a 1998 S10, and people are always walking into the mirrors.

I assume these idiots are accustomed to knocking into mirrors that fold back.

Just saying, a mirror that is cheap and easily replaced or that folds back may be the more economical choice in the long run.

From the mirrors shown the first one, the long narrow one of simple design is what I would favor.

I say this with the major blind spot most pickup trucks have in mind and the necessity for a convex mirror. The long narrow mirror with a convex glued on to the outer most mirror region should work. However, if you can get the entire mirror surface in convex that would be preferred because the smaller the mirror the more useless it becomes (unless convex).

Also if you are doing an aerodynamic bed cover that has no back window, these side mirrors will be your only connection to the outside world adjacent and behind you. Make them as effective as possible.

A motorcycle mirror with a shorter stalk does exactly the same for fewer money :D

I think the peep mirrors would certainly suit a look I have in mind, but I figured the complete flat surface would be less aerodynamic compared to either of the 2 I posted.

As for a cover, I plan to do a type of kammbak off the cab and a partial tonneau cover. Not quite as good as an aeroshell, but I'll be doing 99% highway driving so I'll need the visibility.

We're kind of crippled by the database errors, but there have been posts on the subject. The peep mirror could have a bollet-shaped nose added. More subtle would be a ring-shaped wickerbill. And they can be positioned half-way back on the door, for better aerodynamics and visibility.

Ask kach22i: ecomodder.com/forum/showthread.php/roof-spoiler-pick-up-truck-cab-phase-1

There exists a comparison chart I can't quote at the moment -- a cab-top Bonneville spoiler and half-tonneau is close to the aerocap in performance. Plus you get a closed compartment behind the tailgate.

http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x...k%20Up/wn2.jpg

I have looked at that post recently. Showed a graph on aero mods represented as a percentage of CD drop. Top 3 were roof spoiler and partial cover, aero shell, and full body redesign. Doing the spoiler/partial cover option for budget, simplicity, and appearance.

There ya go. For the lurkers bots.

https://ecomodder.com/forum/attachme...p;d=1321672599

Basic Redesign has none of the features. :confused:

What kind of look?

I was just looking up mirrors and found this - sorry for the sidetrack but might be of use?

https://www.toyota-4runner.org/5th-g...r-mirrors.html
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...r.jpg~original
https://www.toyota-4runner.org/attac...ic-64091-jpeg?

mirrors
 

Present day Tesla, Jaguar F-Type, and Chevy Volt 2nd-gen mirrors would all be examples I'd recommend.
A single, thin stalk, distancing the mirror housing out and away from the door.
Also, Sports Car Club of America used to sell racing mirrors out of their catalog, which were also pretty slick. They reduced my truck's mirror drag from Cd 0.024, down to Cd 0.010, and lower frontal area as well. Add 'button' blind-spot mirrors to them for added outward visibility.

Going to "disguise" my aero mods by making my truck cosmetically look like some kind of Bonneville salt flat racer with the iconic red and white so cal speed shop paint scheme. Where I live, police/government are trying to "crack down" on unsafe modified cars, so anything that's visually obscure looking is a target. Trying to keep my mods functional, but aesthetically clean

.

Mirror Laws by Province (Canada)

https://ecomodder.com/wiki/Mirror_La...ovince_(Canada)


For Ontario this should be acceptable then.

https://ecomodder.com/forum/showthre...ror-23623.html



:turtle:

>

.

Do you have example links or pics? (Sorry, I was trying to google, but not sure if scca has a valid online shop...)

I went to their website and it looks like these days all they offer is gear/clothes/apparel.

However the search did lead to an interesting mirror that kind of reminds me of the roof wing I built for my pickup truck, be it scaled down.

This item is out of stock.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/223111159589
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1631862415.jpg
I like this version even better.

https://www.aerostraight.com/ProfessionalExtreme.html
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1631862979.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1631862979.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1631863221.jpg

https://www.aerostraight.com/Purchase.html
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1631863614.jpg

Says in stock:
https://www.pegasusautoracing.com/pr...sp?RecID=10537

Cheaper, but the stem isn't aerodynamic at all.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Auto-Racing...-/223110277037
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1631864496.jpg

No taper or step down, looks to play off of "Box Cavity" effect only.

One could bend sleeves out of model aircraft brass tubing.

Not sure model brass tubing goes big enough, I think it stops at 1/2" internal diameter. However one COULD use copper thinwall pipe, but for an aero shape, sheet with a brazed/soldered edge would be better

link
 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qdWc3vEr3q0Sorry, it was from an actual catalog I discovered at the annual PATE Swap Meet.
If you can find the second video for SPIRIT of EcoModder you'll see them at the wind tunnel.
FUJI Heavy Industries is accredited with this lower drag mirror tech, in their 1985 Subaru XT, which had the thin stalk, spacing the mirror housing out 80mm from the door glass.
For the lowest drag mirror housing, look to the 1996, PORSCHE 911 GT, raced at Le Mans.

That's the best approach. Not sure if it's the same there as in my country, but a commercial vehicle with different mirrors usually doesn't caught too much unwanted attention from police or traffic enforcement.

I’m wondering if you can locate your mirror inside the glass and have zero drag. Here is the California vehicle code addressing mirrors…


VEHICLE CODE - VEH
DIVISION 12. EQUIPMENT OF VEHICLES [24000 - 28160] ( Division 12 enacted by Stats. 1959, Ch. 3. )

CHAPTER 4. Windshields and Mirrors [26700 - 26712] ( Chapter 4 enacted by Stats. 1959, Ch. 3. )

26709.
(a) Every motor vehicle registered in a foreign jurisdiction and every motorcycle subject to registration in this state shall be equipped with a mirror so located as to reflect to the driver a view of the highway for a distance of at least 200 feet to the rear of such vehicle.
Every motor vehicle subject to registration in this state, except a motorcycle, shall be equipped with not less than two such mirrors, including one affixed to the left-hand side.
(b) The following described types of motor vehicles, of a type subject to registration, shall be equipped with mirrors on both the left- and right-hand sides of the vehicle so located as to reflect to the driver a view of the highway through each mirror for a distance of at least 200 feet to the rear of such vehicle:
(1) A motor vehicle so constructed or loaded as to obstruct the driver’s view to the rear.
(2) A motor vehicle towing a vehicle and the towed vehicle or load thereon obstructs the driver’s view to the rear.
(3) A bus or trolley coach.
(c) The provisions of subdivision (b) shall not apply to a passenger vehicle when the load obstructing the driver’s view consists of passengers.



So while it does state you need at least two mirrors and one has to be on the left, could the left mirror be mounted to the top of the door sill INSIDE the glass? Why not? The combination of this mirror and the standard center mounted mirror would surely satisfy the criteria that “to reflect to the driver a view of the highway for a distance of at least 200 feet to the rear of such vehicle.” An inside mirror on the right would add even more visibility.

Anyone tried it?

In my country, I see fender-mirrors installed on vehicles originally fitted with wing mirrors. Not sure if an internally-mounted mirror would be accepted as roadworthy.

Yeah, you would probably get pulled over a lot but I don’t think it would technically be illegal (in California anyway).

Here is a link to mirror regs in each US state. Note that some explicitly state “outside” or “exterior” where the vast majority don’t. They use similar language regarding the 200’ so I’m wondering if it’s a snippet of a federal reg.

https://ecomodder.com/wiki/Mirror_Laws_by_State_(U.S.)

There's an interesting one at ULTRA FAST HIGH TEMP 3D Printing at RAPID + TCT 2021 at 11:03 from Nexa3D for the Arcimoto FUV. The front face is knurled.

edit: Almost forgot:
ecomodder.com/.../interior-side-veiw-mirrors-22439.html#post315373

ecomodder.com/.../mirror-delete-interior-mirror-options-6008.html#post227912

Indeed. Even though this loophole may be easy to justify there, I'm sure it would be a PITA to explain it everytime the police pulls someone over for the absence of exterior mirrors.

Pretty much every time I have been pulled over in CALI (a lot, used to live there) I have done something else to attract the officers attention in detrimental way. The odd stuff on the vehicle has not caused attention until close inspection by the officer. I don't know how you can prevent being pulled over to explain something that is odd but legal.

inside mirror
 

Without an 'outside' vantage point, there would be a region along the flanks, to the rear of the vehicle that would be 'invisible' to the driver.
You could potentially initiate a lane change maneuver while a vehicle behind you has already begun an overtaking maneuver in your blind spot.
I'm pretty certain that this is the reason why fresnel lens and camera systems have their 'source' vision beyond the outer surface of the doors.
The California State Driver's Training program admonished us high school students to never surprise another motorist, nor be surprised by another motorist.
Everyone needed a minimum three-seconds warning of driver 'intent' before ever turning the steering wheel in traffic.

I believe that John Edgar would encourage testing be done to determine which mirror would be most aerodynamic. It seems his idea of using a throttle stop device to see the effect each mirror would have on speed would be an appropriate way to go.

Otherwise, it is pure speculation which mirror is best.

Sometimes what could be the best aerodynamically-wise ends up being a PITA when it comes to practicality of its fitment.

That's down to inadequate taper in plan. ;) Example: Arcimoto FUV.

Not sure if there's enough drag difference to measure unless they like totally mess up the side flow. 1% improvement or degradation gets lost n the data signal

Yeah, Edgar has said that when he tests modifications or devices to improve aerodynamics on a car, he's looking for at least more than a 1% drag reduction, and preferably at least 2% or more before he considers it worthwhile for implementation and further testing. At such small levels of improvement, it's darn hard to separate the noise from the signal due to all the potential misleading influencers like wind, grade, inadequate testing instrument sensitivities, etc and etc.

But the fact is, we're often faced with eking out small gains if we're going to make improvements in fuel economy from some starting base, but even a few ones and twos can add up to fives and tens and more, eventually.

Most people are often looking for a "miracle", instead of looking for any minor improvements which could lead to an overall better result.

https://metrompg.com/posts/mirrors.htm

The paper referenced there claims 3-6% as a result of mirror drag, so remove both mirrors and you will get 3-6% lower total drag.

If you are looking for 2% for a mod to be worthwhile and your mirrors are 3% of total drag, that means that you need a mirror that has one third the CdA of the baseline mirror.

Testing mirrors on a car is virtually impossible. Unless the car is very low drag to begin with.