Mix transmission fluid in diesel fuel for longevity.
A common practice with many diesel heavy equipment owners is to add 1/4 cup of transmission fluid per 150L of diesel to keep their diesel semi's or equipments fuel pump lubricated and engine carbon free.
Myth or real benefit is what I am curious about, and is it ATF or type F fluid that works best ? Since I have a tired old diesel fuel pump ($1800) I am going to start adding trans fluid to my fill ups to lube the pump , not sure if it will actually clean carbon but lubricating the fuel pump sounds probable to me.. for my fill ups of 55L i will add 1/10th a cup / 25ml of ATF |
I will put a gallon of used ATF in 15 to 20 gallons of fuel.
Does it save fuel, I dont know, but it saved that gallon. Does it it make the fuel lube better, yeah it makes it really oily. |
oil burner people say use only a certified product, like power service. others use 2 stroke oil with good results.
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ATF is not formulated to be burnt, so it's not really that safe to be blended with the fuel. I'd rather use 2-stroke oil, or even pure vegetable oil, instead of ATF or brake fluid.
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I have a friend who ran ATF in a VW TDI and said it ran better than anything else he put in there and that it cleaned a lot of carbon out of the engine too cause when he started it up it belched a ton of thick black smoke. But then ran better than even diesel did in his car.
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You dont use brake fluid. Its hygroscopic.
Vegetable oil is good to. 2 stroke oil is very good but its expensive. |
When I owned a mercedes 240 d it was recommended to do that too. Engine or atf fluid. I use to use the stuff in the grey bottle as well.
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Thanks for the tips and opinions, it sounds promising ,has today's Diesel been reformulated ? That's what I read , I think I'll find that link later..
when lube is needed it all will help is what i picked up. Oil pan you burn a heavy blend,makes me think I am playing it to safe with my 25ml per 55l estimate. I think I could splurge a full cup of and be plenty safe .. CriPpLeD roOsTeRoster, that makes sense, 2 stroke is meant to be burnt as opposed to ATF fluid. I need a better 2 stroke explanation but this one is a start.. 2-Stroke Many a times when you read on online forums or talk to fellow motorcyclist/scooterist, you will find that there is general idea that synthetic is better than mineral (non-synthetic) oil. Why? because as people claim, it gives more power, and is smoother, whatever. Bull. The truth is that synthetic may or may not always be better than non-synthetic oils. For a clearer picture, one should look at the performance quality classification label on the bottle. I shall refer to the Japanese JASO standard as it is most frequently used. http://vesporeanfaq.wikispaces.com/t...t+2-stroke+oil follow the link for wikipedia with the JASO standards: `````````````````````````````````````````````````` `````````` Automatic transmission fluid - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia or a good snippet below: Most ATFs contain some combination of additives that improve lubricating qualities,[1][2][3] such as anti-wear additives, rust and corrosion inhibitors, detergents, dispersants and surfactants (which protect and clean metal surfaces); kinematic viscosity and viscosity index improvers and modifiers, seal swell additives and agents (which extend the rotational speed range and temperature range of the additives' application); anti-foam additives and anti-oxidation compounds to inhibit oxidation and "boil-off"[4] (which extends the life of the additives' application); cold-flow improvers, high-temperature thickeners, gasket conditioners, pour point depressant and petroleum dye. All ATFs contain friction modifiers, except for those ATFs specified for some Ford transmissions and the John Deere J-21A specification;[5] the Ford ESP (or ESW) - M2C-33 F specification Type F ATF (Ford-O-Matic) and Ford ESP (or ESW) - M2C-33 G specification Type G ATF (1980s Ford Europe and Japan)[6] specifically excludes the addition of friction modifiers. `````````````````````````````````````````````````` `````````` the ATF additives make it attractive to People, I suspect, If it cleans and lubes It may be superior , although its meant to clean and lube gears not so much combustion chambers. ATF could help seals of the fuel system , possibly injectors and fuel pump seals and gears, not sure what 2 stroke adds besides lube ir may well have detergents. |
Synthetic 2-stroke oil is supposed to burn cleaner and decrease the incidence of carbon deposits around the spark plug electrode, while still lubricating more efficiently. But the main concern was about the smoke and carbon deposits.
Diesel fuel obviously had some changes, not just due to the lower amount of sulphur but also due to imrpovements at the modern injection systems and lower combustion temperatures at some of the most advanced engines to meet current emissions standards. |
The 2 stroke oil may not be the answer short of buying the synthetic it seems, but its to expensive. The ATF seems hopeful but does have some good properties, it may well need a strong mix rates to be effective.
Someone told me today that a Farmer (in Alberta) uses 1L ATF per 200L of diesel in his equipment , for he said to keep the fuel system and motor clean problem free. 1 cup to 50L is 192 to 1 , much like my Yamaha 2 stroke outboard which is 200 to 1 Oil Pan your mix , 15-1 is strong but I expect I could clean the system with that strength then add less to maintain, maybe my car needs that, I may well try. I need to find used ATF or I need to find someplace that would be happy to give me a jug. |
This article reports, that at least in one person's experience, a mix of up to 90% ATF with diesel could be safe.
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Interestingly, these folks claim that US Army testing showed no improved lubricity from adding ATF to low sulfur diesel. Given that the bulletin was allegedly issued in 1994, before ULSD was legislated, and that dieselfuelsystems.com a) does not cite their source, and b) has a financial interest in downplaying alternative fuel additives such as ATF, I would tend to go with wikipedia on its thrice-cited claim that most ATF includes additives to improve lubricating qualities. However, if I was to try ATF in my fuel (and I haven't yet, due to only recently hearing about it), I wouldn't do it for the cost savings or the Unicorn-friendly hope of improving lubricity. I would do it for the detergents and the hope of clearing and preventing deposits in the fuel system, a claim for which there are many testimonials extant. For this reason, I will be trying new, and not used ATF in my 1997 Mercedes (which has indirect injection and no high-pressure common rail system). So yeah, I'm new here. I just had to chime in with a mix of facts and speculation. I will be trying ATF, along with a standard dose of cetane booster with my next tank of diesel. |
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As I understand it, our North American diesel used to be 56 Cetane in the old days, and is now 40. The Volkswagen ALH TDI was apparently designed to run on diesel with a Cetane of 49-51. An experienced VW guy recently told me that he often mixes 1 cup gasoline with one gallon Kerosene, and adds that to a tank of diesel (what's a full tank?...15-17 USG). I'm just about finished working on the old Jetta TDI I bought a few months ago and will be putting it on the road at the beginning of the new year. Since this is all pretty new stuff to me, I've been reading (a bit) on diesel fuel additives for lubricity. I picked up two bottles of diesel Power Service when it was on sale at Canadian Tire...one of the winter stuff, and the other just additive. I'm going to add 250ml to a full tank of diesel, so the two liters will last me a couple months...or less...I'm doing almost 5000 kms per month. I've just finished tuning the engine up, and ran a can of diesel purge through it, but going forward, I want to do what I can to squeeze as much life out of it as I can...and the car is already 2/3 to 3/4 worn out...lol. Keep me posted on what you end up doing;). Rem |
How did this wind up here?
I don't see any significant Unicorn-like features. Mostly what I see in this thread is honest inquiry and precious little in the way of outlandish claims. |
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So, are you suggesting we call this the DYNO DUNGEON instead of UNICORN CORRAL?
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ATF not included, but seems applicable: DIESEL FUEL LUBRICITY ADDITIVES STUDY RESULTS
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No, not Dyno Dungeon. But it just looks to me like this isn't really Unicorn material. It looks like honest inquiry to me. At least, a lot more like honest inquiry than the usual hydrogen-flavored snake oil that populates Unicornia.
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Since this is more of a fact gathering thread, I will say that I have use Lucas Oil fuel system treatment with success. My Intrepid was beginning to take longer to start than normal and I deduced that it must be from not building fuel pressure fast enough.
Within 50 miles of adding it to the tank fuel pressure was back to normal and it would fire on the 2nd revolution reliably again without hilding the key on before starting. Additional lubricants in the fuel, especially for cars with higher mileage, is helpful. |
I should start using the 2 for 1 Lucas oil deal I got a few years back. I think I put it in my Honda once.
It was a bargin......you know....something you don't need at a price you can't pass up! :p |
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I think the unicornism is in the lack of data regarding the ATF.
A lot of the stuff you put in the tank (other than gasoline or diesel respectively) you only hear people saying that "it definitely works for sure" but real numbers are missing. As a side note, I'm not so sure a cat or dpf doesn't suffer from those additives and especially atf. Heck, even using the wrong oil grade can have a detrimental effect on a dpf. |
I saw the link on Page 2, which downloaded a PDF to my computer. I'm a member over at the same forum (DieselPlace) and the test results are posted on there in a thread too.
In short, the results of all that was tested or listed in the test results (if you're not a member there and don't want to register...) showed that 2% Biodiesel was the one that lubricated the most. Personally, I'd like to just fuel up with B5 (5% Biodiesel) but if I can't get that then I'll have to go get 100% and mix it in with ULSD. Note: Some Diesel engines can't take 100% Biodiesel without some modifications to the engine so don't just fuel up with 100% if your engine can't handle it. I realize there are people here who know that, I'm just posting it for anyone who doesn't. |
Isn't Diesel a lubricant anyway ?
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sulfur lubricates as lead did. correct me if i'm wrong.
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Probably. Just relating it to something I read years ago about mis fuelling.
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A few of the newer ats (atf+4 for dodge) is synthetic dusn't change color when you get it hot or old asper Dodge so imo avoid synthetic atf
as for 2 stroke synthetic. I won't run it in my 372xp chainsaw because of ash fawling and buld up. old 2stroke didn't burn up= smoke and oil fawling for a gasser more oil=less fule aka leaner to much oil can melt pistons As for lack of testing what is the life expectancy for a injection pump 200,000 500,000 1,000, 000 mijust how many more miles duse atf give ? I have275000 on a vp44 using ctane booster 1floz for 3 gal skip it for 2 tanks and that old 12v starts talking clattering, hard starting [Quote] will it hert my ??? Parts [quote] if gas , then zinc is fatal for your cat .it was taken out of motor oil To be able to give an epa mandated 100,000mile wornty .It was a friction modfier its removal required the change to roller-cams. |
There are those who use WalMart TC3 2-stroke oil in HPCR engines. A small amount. I've tried it and saw no FE improvement. So that is not the reason to use it, but fir supposed lubricity improvement.
I use Power Service pretty much all the time. And buy Shell of Exxon diesel. The combo is worth close to 1-mpg highway versus straight diesel. And it's Unicorn as there are not genuine studies advocating this. In the days of mechanical, low pressure diesels one could burn oils fairly easily while on the highway and under a load. Today, there's no smarts in threatening expensive injectors. About $4000 with installation and associated part replace by for six on my Cummins. |
This is a different link to the dieselplace study. It should work for non-members.
Lubricity Additive Study Results - Diesel Place : Chevrolet and GMC Diesel Truck Forums Since seeing this report a few years ago, I've been using Supertech 2-stroke oil in both my car and truck with no issues. My goal was lubricity, some folks on the TDI forums claim a mpg gain but it could be a placebo gain. Quote:
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tl;dr - but: I had a 2008 Smart Diesel, and it was grateful for an addition of half synthetic two stroke oil, about 1:150 mix. It ran definitely quieter. MPG had been the same though. I felt better because I assumed that the high pressure common rail pump was better lubricated.
Once one guy had created his own Diesel fuel addon in a DIY way named Monzol. I had tried it, it was even better than two stroke engine oil. |
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Interestingly Biodiesel also acts as a fuel system cleaner. Guys on the TDI forums have said that running one tank of B100 loosened enough gunk to completely clog their fuel filter. |
Back when ULSD came out, all of us old time diesel drivers were adding some ATF to our fuel tanks- good thing, too. the lube package for the first couple years in ULSD was HORRIBLE/non existent, and many good Fuel injection pumps and injectors were destroyed due to lack of proper lubrication.
You can actually run a diesel on 100% ATF- they run just fine- I have a friend who owns a Quick Lube, he saves all the used ATF, filters it and uses it in his Ford to pull his bass boat all over the country. |
I've read that ATF will dislodge any gunk that had accumulated.
I used to dump waste motor oil into the fuel tank without doing anything to it. I figure it got filtered thousands of times, so it should be good to go. Just need a clean oil pan to catch the oil. |
Yep, good point. Lots of diesel owners I know did the same thing. Never heard of any issues!
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Used to and Lots of are... old.
Yes, the lube oil got filtered constantly, but it was formulated to stick together to maintain a film under harsh conditions, not to get spritzed into a fine mist by the injectors. That alone should give one pause. I'm not up on diesels, as such: I'm a parts guy, and I hate diesels because they're difficult (not efficient on my end). Older diesels could run on pure ATF, straight WMO, whatever the hell you could fit in the tank. Everything runs tighter nowadays, and newer ones (06+?) are also less forgiving because of emissions rules. I've seen clogged injectors from mixing WMO with the fuel. In the newer, more highly strung diesels, I'm not a big fan of additives. There's a place for them, but use a light brush. |
ATF is motor oil without the combustion byproducts control package. Plus additives specifics to its stated purpose. Meaning, additives NOT wanted in motor fuel.
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my cousin owns a very successful tow company.
I don't know what his current practice is but when I was around his shop he would always have a big bottle of ATF mix on his equipment he didn't use it all the time but when he needed high power output in it went. filtered old motor oil is also a popular fuel alternative and or additive and with a higher BTU and higher lubrosity it has definitely got positive aspects. and you do need to filter it this is a pretty good article on filtering and mixing and it would pertain to ATF as well https://usfiltermaxx.com/en/content/9-make-black-diesel |
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