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-   -   Mix transmission fluid in diesel fuel for longevity. (https://ecomodder.com/forum/showthread.php/mix-transmission-fluid-diesel-fuel-longevity-28733.html)

ecomodded 04-16-2014 10:34 PM

Mix transmission fluid in diesel fuel for longevity.
 
A common practice with many diesel heavy equipment owners is to add 1/4 cup of transmission fluid per 150L of diesel to keep their diesel semi's or equipments fuel pump lubricated and engine carbon free.

Myth or real benefit is what I am curious about, and is it ATF or type F fluid that works best ?

Since I have a tired old diesel fuel pump ($1800) I am going to start adding trans fluid to my fill ups to lube the pump , not sure if it will actually clean carbon but lubricating the fuel pump sounds probable to me..

for my fill ups of 55L i will add 1/10th a cup / 25ml of ATF

oil pan 4 04-17-2014 12:30 AM

I will put a gallon of used ATF in 15 to 20 gallons of fuel.
Does it save fuel, I dont know, but it saved that gallon.
Does it it make the fuel lube better, yeah it makes it really oily.

deejaaa 04-17-2014 12:39 AM

oil burner people say use only a certified product, like power service. others use 2 stroke oil with good results.

cRiPpLe_rOoStEr 04-17-2014 06:47 AM

ATF is not formulated to be burnt, so it's not really that safe to be blended with the fuel. I'd rather use 2-stroke oil, or even pure vegetable oil, instead of ATF or brake fluid.

backpacker3 04-17-2014 08:52 AM

I have a friend who ran ATF in a VW TDI and said it ran better than anything else he put in there and that it cleaned a lot of carbon out of the engine too cause when he started it up it belched a ton of thick black smoke. But then ran better than even diesel did in his car.

oil pan 4 04-17-2014 10:46 AM

You dont use brake fluid. Its hygroscopic.
Vegetable oil is good to.
2 stroke oil is very good but its expensive.

Cobb 04-17-2014 07:59 PM

When I owned a mercedes 240 d it was recommended to do that too. Engine or atf fluid. I use to use the stuff in the grey bottle as well.

ecomodded 04-18-2014 02:18 AM

Thanks for the tips and opinions, it sounds promising ,has today's Diesel been reformulated ? That's what I read , I think I'll find that link later..
when lube is needed it all will help is what i picked up.

Oil pan you burn a heavy blend,makes me think I am playing it to safe with my 25ml per 55l estimate. I think I could splurge a full cup of and be plenty safe ..

CriPpLeD roOsTeRoster, that makes sense, 2 stroke is meant to be burnt as opposed to ATF fluid.


I need a better 2 stroke explanation but this one is a start..
2-Stroke

Many a times when you read on online forums or talk to fellow motorcyclist/scooterist, you will find that there is general idea that synthetic is better than mineral (non-synthetic) oil. Why? because as people claim, it gives more power, and is smoother, whatever. Bull.

The truth is that synthetic may or may not always be better than non-synthetic oils. For a clearer picture, one should look at the performance quality classification label on the bottle. I shall refer to the Japanese JASO standard as it is most frequently used. http://vesporeanfaq.wikispaces.com/t...t+2-stroke+oil

follow the link for wikipedia with the JASO standards:

`````````````````````````````````````````````````` ``````````


Automatic transmission fluid - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

or a good snippet below:

Most ATFs contain some combination of additives that improve lubricating qualities,[1][2][3] such as anti-wear additives, rust and corrosion inhibitors, detergents, dispersants and surfactants (which protect and clean metal surfaces); kinematic viscosity and viscosity index improvers and modifiers, seal swell additives and agents (which extend the rotational speed range and temperature range of the additives' application); anti-foam additives and anti-oxidation compounds to inhibit oxidation and "boil-off"[4] (which extends the life of the additives' application); cold-flow improvers, high-temperature thickeners, gasket conditioners, pour point depressant and petroleum dye. All ATFs contain friction modifiers, except for those ATFs specified for some Ford transmissions and the John Deere J-21A specification;[5] the Ford ESP (or ESW) - M2C-33 F specification Type F ATF (Ford-O-Matic) and Ford ESP (or ESW) - M2C-33 G specification Type G ATF (1980s Ford Europe and Japan)[6] specifically excludes the addition of friction modifiers.

`````````````````````````````````````````````````` ``````````

the ATF additives make it attractive to People, I suspect, If it cleans and lubes It may be superior , although its meant to clean and lube gears not so much combustion chambers.

ATF could help seals of the fuel system , possibly injectors and fuel pump seals and gears, not sure what 2 stroke adds besides lube ir may well have detergents.

cRiPpLe_rOoStEr 04-18-2014 08:45 AM

Synthetic 2-stroke oil is supposed to burn cleaner and decrease the incidence of carbon deposits around the spark plug electrode, while still lubricating more efficiently. But the main concern was about the smoke and carbon deposits.

Diesel fuel obviously had some changes, not just due to the lower amount of sulphur but also due to imrpovements at the modern injection systems and lower combustion temperatures at some of the most advanced engines to meet current emissions standards.

ecomodded 04-18-2014 05:19 PM

The 2 stroke oil may not be the answer short of buying the synthetic it seems, but its to expensive. The ATF seems hopeful but does have some good properties, it may well need a strong mix rates to be effective.


Someone told me today that a Farmer (in Alberta) uses 1L ATF per 200L of diesel in his equipment , for he said to keep the fuel system and motor clean problem free.
1 cup to 50L is 192 to 1 , much like my Yamaha 2 stroke outboard which is 200 to 1

Oil Pan your mix , 15-1 is strong but I expect I could clean the system with that strength then add less to maintain, maybe my car needs that, I may well try.
I need to find used ATF or I need to find someplace that would be happy to give me a jug.

clarknova 12-16-2014 03:46 AM

This article reports, that at least in one person's experience, a mix of up to 90% ATF with diesel could be safe.

Quote:

Most ATFs contain some combination of additives...anti-oxidation compounds to inhibit oxidation and "boil-off"...high-temperature thickeners
ATF may be good for lubrication or cleaning, as some claim, but it appears to be not as great as diesel at burning. You'll note in the above-linked article that Mr Richard Snyder uses a cetane booster with his ATF mix. I would presume that would be to counteract some of the less desirable qualities (at least in the context of use as fuel) of ATF in the above quote.

Interestingly, these folks claim that US Army testing showed no improved lubricity from adding ATF to low sulfur diesel. Given that the bulletin was allegedly issued in 1994, before ULSD was legislated, and that dieselfuelsystems.com a) does not cite their source, and b) has a financial interest in downplaying alternative fuel additives such as ATF, I would tend to go with wikipedia on its thrice-cited claim that most ATF includes additives to improve lubricating qualities.

However, if I was to try ATF in my fuel (and I haven't yet, due to only recently hearing about it), I wouldn't do it for the cost savings or the Unicorn-friendly hope of improving lubricity. I would do it for the detergents and the hope of clearing and preventing deposits in the fuel system, a claim for which there are many testimonials extant. For this reason, I will be trying new, and not used ATF in my 1997 Mercedes (which has indirect injection and no high-pressure common rail system).

So yeah, I'm new here. I just had to chime in with a mix of facts and speculation. I will be trying ATF, along with a standard dose of cetane booster with my next tank of diesel.

Rembrant 12-21-2014 07:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ecomodded (Post 420692)
Thanks for the tips and opinions, it sounds promising ,has today's Diesel been reformulated ? That's what I read , I think I'll find that link later..
when lube is needed it all will help is what i picked up.

The '98 Beetle has the ALH engine doesn't it? Same as my '03 Jetta (last year for the ALH).

As I understand it, our North American diesel used to be 56 Cetane in the old days, and is now 40. The Volkswagen ALH TDI was apparently designed to run on diesel with a Cetane of 49-51.

An experienced VW guy recently told me that he often mixes 1 cup gasoline with one gallon Kerosene, and adds that to a tank of diesel (what's a full tank?...15-17 USG).

I'm just about finished working on the old Jetta TDI I bought a few months ago and will be putting it on the road at the beginning of the new year. Since this is all pretty new stuff to me, I've been reading (a bit) on diesel fuel additives for lubricity. I picked up two bottles of diesel Power Service when it was on sale at Canadian Tire...one of the winter stuff, and the other just additive. I'm going to add 250ml to a full tank of diesel, so the two liters will last me a couple months...or less...I'm doing almost 5000 kms per month. I've just finished tuning the engine up, and ran a can of diesel purge through it, but going forward, I want to do what I can to squeeze as much life out of it as I can...and the car is already 2/3 to 3/4 worn out...lol.

Keep me posted on what you end up doing;).

Rem

elhigh 12-23-2014 02:41 PM

How did this wind up here?

I don't see any significant Unicorn-like features. Mostly what I see in this thread is honest inquiry and precious little in the way of outlandish claims.

ksa8907 12-23-2014 08:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elhigh (Post 461089)
How did this wind up here?

I don't see any significant Unicorn-like features. Mostly what I see in this thread is honest inquiry and precious little in the way of outlandish claims.

I would agree, considering I used an expensive fuel treatment/lubricator to help extend the life of fuel pump in my last car. This idea that fuel additives work is not Unicorn Corral material, it's fact.

gone-ot 12-23-2014 09:45 PM

So, are you suggesting we call this the DYNO DUNGEON instead of UNICORN CORRAL?

Ardent 12-24-2014 08:55 AM

ATF not included, but seems applicable: DIESEL FUEL LUBRICITY ADDITIVES STUDY RESULTS

ksa8907 12-24-2014 12:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ardent (Post 461177)
ATF not included, but seems applicable: DIESEL FUEL LUBRICITY ADDITIVES STUDY RESULTS

Wow, thanks for that post!

elhigh 12-29-2014 12:50 PM

No, not Dyno Dungeon. But it just looks to me like this isn't really Unicorn material. It looks like honest inquiry to me. At least, a lot more like honest inquiry than the usual hydrogen-flavored snake oil that populates Unicornia.

gone-ot 12-29-2014 02:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elhigh (Post 461714)
No, not Dyno Dungeon. But it just looks to me like this isn't really Unicorn material. It looks like honest inquiry to me. At least, a lot more like honest inquiry than the usual hydrogen-flavored snake oil that populates Unicornia.

...then, contact/convince Doax about moving it somewhere more appropriate.

elhigh 12-30-2014 09:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Old Tele man (Post 461734)
...then, contact/convince Doax about moving it somewhere more appropriate.

Nope. I'm not entirely convinced it doesn't belong, just idly wondering whether it should. It's not enough to get excited about in any case.

ksa8907 12-30-2014 10:07 AM

Since this is more of a fact gathering thread, I will say that I have use Lucas Oil fuel system treatment with success. My Intrepid was beginning to take longer to start than normal and I deduced that it must be from not building fuel pressure fast enough.

Within 50 miles of adding it to the tank fuel pressure was back to normal and it would fire on the 2nd revolution reliably again without hilding the key on before starting.

Additional lubricants in the fuel, especially for cars with higher mileage, is helpful.

ChazInMT 12-30-2014 09:17 PM

I should start using the 2 for 1 Lucas oil deal I got a few years back. I think I put it in my Honda once.

It was a bargin......you know....something you don't need at a price you can't pass up! :p

Mustang Dave 01-01-2015 08:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChazInMT (Post 461853)
I should start using the 2 for 1 Lucas oil deal I got a few years back. I think I put it in my Honda once.

It was a bargin......you know....something you don't need at a price you can't pass up! :p

I tried Chevron Techron fuel system cleaner in my Mustang once. It didn't make any difference in fuel economy, but it only cost $7.99 for a 12-ounce bottle.... $85.23/gallon!:eek:

wickydude 05-09-2015 01:11 PM

I think the unicornism is in the lack of data regarding the ATF.
A lot of the stuff you put in the tank (other than gasoline or diesel respectively) you only hear people saying that "it definitely works for sure" but real numbers are missing.

As a side note, I'm not so sure a cat or dpf doesn't suffer from those additives and especially atf. Heck, even using the wrong oil grade can have a detrimental effect on a dpf.

101Volts 05-13-2015 10:10 AM

I saw the link on Page 2, which downloaded a PDF to my computer. I'm a member over at the same forum (DieselPlace) and the test results are posted on there in a thread too.

In short, the results of all that was tested or listed in the test results (if you're not a member there and don't want to register...) showed that 2% Biodiesel was the one that lubricated the most. Personally, I'd like to just fuel up with B5 (5% Biodiesel) but if I can't get that then I'll have to go get 100% and mix it in with ULSD.

Note: Some Diesel engines can't take 100% Biodiesel without some modifications to the engine so don't just fuel up with 100% if your engine can't handle it. I realize there are people here who know that, I'm just posting it for anyone who doesn't.

Arragonis 05-15-2015 05:49 PM

Isn't Diesel a lubricant anyway ?

deejaaa 05-15-2015 06:57 PM

sulfur lubricates as lead did. correct me if i'm wrong.

Arragonis 05-16-2015 04:21 AM

Probably. Just relating it to something I read years ago about mis fuelling.

gumby79 05-16-2015 06:06 AM

A few of the newer ats (atf+4 for dodge) is synthetic dusn't change color when you get it hot or old asper Dodge so imo avoid synthetic atf
as for 2 stroke synthetic. I won't run it in my 372xp chainsaw because of ash fawling and buld up.
old 2stroke didn't burn up= smoke and oil fawling
for a gasser more oil=less fule aka leaner to much oil can melt pistons

As for lack of testing what is the life expectancy for a injection pump 200,000 500,000 1,000, 000 mijust how many more miles duse atf give ? I have275000 on a vp44 using ctane booster 1floz for 3 gal skip it for 2 tanks and that old 12v starts talking clattering, hard starting

[Quote] will it hert my ??? Parts [quote]
if gas , then zinc is fatal for your cat .it was taken out of motor oil To be able to give an epa mandated 100,000mile wornty .It was a friction modfier its removal required the change to roller-cams.

slowmover 05-16-2015 11:50 AM

There are those who use WalMart TC3 2-stroke oil in HPCR engines. A small amount. I've tried it and saw no FE improvement. So that is not the reason to use it, but fir supposed lubricity improvement.

I use Power Service pretty much all the time. And buy Shell of Exxon diesel. The combo is worth close to 1-mpg highway versus straight diesel.

And it's Unicorn as there are not genuine studies advocating this. In the days of mechanical, low pressure diesels one could burn oils fairly easily while on the highway and under a load.

Today, there's no smarts in threatening expensive injectors. About $4000 with installation and associated part replace by for six on my Cummins.

MkVer 09-24-2015 08:07 AM

This is a different link to the dieselplace study. It should work for non-members.

Lubricity Additive Study Results - Diesel Place : Chevrolet and GMC Diesel Truck Forums

Since seeing this report a few years ago, I've been using Supertech 2-stroke oil in both my car and truck with no issues. My goal was lubricity, some folks on the TDI forums claim a mpg gain but it could be a placebo gain.

Quote:

Originally Posted by deejaaa (Post 479491)
sulfur lubricates as lead did. correct me if i'm wrong.

You are correct, ULS diesel is sometimes called "dry diesel" There have been growing pains, although VW and Bosch never admitted it some folks blame the 2009-12 TDI fuel pump failures on USLD.

UFO 09-24-2015 06:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deejaaa (Post 479491)
sulfur lubricates as lead did. correct me if i'm wrong.

Here is my understanding of the ULSD reformulation. The sulfur is not a lubricant, however the process of removing the sulfur also reduces the fuel lubricity. In addition to the ridiculously low cetane of the new ULSD fuel, and what I perceive to be less energy, I never run straight D2. Even during winter I run at least B20. I get better mileage on biodiesel than pump diesel; this I have tested back-back directly, it's less than 5% difference, but that's why I think there may be less energy in the ULSD -- might be cetane differences too, but since we are in the Unicorn Corral we are allowed to speculate rampantly.

oz42 09-24-2015 06:25 PM

tl;dr - but: I had a 2008 Smart Diesel, and it was grateful for an addition of half synthetic two stroke oil, about 1:150 mix. It ran definitely quieter. MPG had been the same though. I felt better because I assumed that the high pressure common rail pump was better lubricated.

Once one guy had created his own Diesel fuel addon in a DIY way named Monzol. I had tried it, it was even better than two stroke engine oil.

MkVer 09-25-2015 01:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UFO (Post 494498)
Here is my understanding of the ULSD reformulation. The sulfur is not a lubricant, however the process of removing the sulfur also reduces the fuel lubricity. In addition to the ridiculously low cetane of the new ULSD fuel, and what I perceive to be less energy, I never run straight D2. Even during winter I run at least B20. I get better mileage on biodiesel than pump diesel; this I have tested back-back directly, it's less than 5% difference, but that's why I think there may be less energy in the ULSD -- might be cetane differences too, but since we are in the Unicorn Corral we are allowed to speculate rampantly.

From what I understand biodiesel contains less energy per gallon than D2 but it burns more efficiently. So (and this is only based on what I've observed myself or read on other forums) in concentrations below B50 the more efficient burn of Bio allows a more complete burn of the dino-diesel, thus raising mpgs a bit. I've noticed a difference on my car but never my truck. Bio also has significantly better lubricity (#1 on the study) so whenever I can run it I don't run 2-stroke.

Interestingly Biodiesel also acts as a fuel system cleaner. Guys on the TDI forums have said that running one tank of B100 loosened enough gunk to completely clog their fuel filter.

squirrl22 03-22-2019 03:20 PM

Back when ULSD came out, all of us old time diesel drivers were adding some ATF to our fuel tanks- good thing, too. the lube package for the first couple years in ULSD was HORRIBLE/non existent, and many good Fuel injection pumps and injectors were destroyed due to lack of proper lubrication.
You can actually run a diesel on 100% ATF- they run just fine- I have a friend who owns a Quick Lube, he saves all the used ATF, filters it and uses it in his Ford to pull his bass boat all over the country.

redpoint5 03-22-2019 03:35 PM

I've read that ATF will dislodge any gunk that had accumulated.

I used to dump waste motor oil into the fuel tank without doing anything to it. I figure it got filtered thousands of times, so it should be good to go. Just need a clean oil pan to catch the oil.

squirrl22 03-22-2019 07:08 PM

Yep, good point. Lots of diesel owners I know did the same thing. Never heard of any issues!

Fat Charlie 03-22-2019 10:03 PM

Used to and Lots of are... old.

Yes, the lube oil got filtered constantly, but it was formulated to stick together to maintain a film under harsh conditions, not to get spritzed into a fine mist by the injectors. That alone should give one pause.

I'm not up on diesels, as such: I'm a parts guy, and I hate diesels because they're difficult (not efficient on my end). Older diesels could run on pure ATF, straight WMO, whatever the hell you could fit in the tank. Everything runs tighter nowadays, and newer ones (06+?) are also less forgiving because of emissions rules. I've seen clogged injectors from mixing WMO with the fuel.

In the newer, more highly strung diesels, I'm not a big fan of additives. There's a place for them, but use a light brush.

slowmover 03-23-2019 07:52 AM

ATF is motor oil without the combustion byproducts control package. Plus additives specifics to its stated purpose. Meaning, additives NOT wanted in motor fuel.

ASV 06-10-2019 01:53 PM

my cousin owns a very successful tow company.
I don't know what his current practice is but when I was around his shop
he would always have a big bottle of ATF mix on his equipment
he didn't use it all the time but when he needed high power output in it went.

filtered old motor oil is also a popular fuel alternative and or additive
and with a higher BTU and higher lubrosity it has definitely got positive aspects.

and you do need to filter it

this is a pretty good article on filtering and mixing and it would pertain to ATF as well

https://usfiltermaxx.com/en/content/9-make-black-diesel


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