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-   -   Mongo, 48v 1000w 'Magic Pie' ehub on a Mongoose 'Snarl' (https://ecomodder.com/forum/showthread.php/mongo-48v-1000w-magic-pie-ehub-mongoose-snarl-21723.html)

BarelyAWake 05-02-2012 04:23 AM

Mongo, 48v 1000w 'Magic Pie' ehub on a Mongoose 'Snarl'
 
Well... I didn't think I'd ever be makin' an ebike thread - but here I am heh

A little background on this first I s'pose, I've been tinkerin' away on a suspended hybrid/tribrid tadpole trike on & off for about a year now: The Bent Zombie Tribrid Tadpole Trike & it occurred to me that it's electric drive was not only untested, but I was not terribly familiar with ebikes - the only one I'd ever had was years ago, a 12v SLA friction drive 'Zap' setup that was honestly a bit ridiculous, anemic to say the least it's woeful lack of power combined with it's incredibly limited range wasn't complemented by being a friction drive.

Fortunately, I held no grudge against the ebike concept because of it lol, even then I knew full well that wasn't a realistic system for anything other than the novelty factor.

Still, I figured I needed some time on a "real" ebike to see what I was getting into with the tribrid, I didn't have enough experience to know if it would be even worth the bother or what the problems may be - combined with the fact I needed a replacement commuter & winter beater I picked up a Mongoose Snarl mountain bike w/dual disc brakes to test out the electric drive (come winter it'll get an in-frame 2 stroke).

The bike itself is surprisingly good for the price ($250) with beautifully fat, nicely lapped weld beads, 100mm travel forks w/adjustable preload and ofc the disc brakes, which while generic - actually have a centering adjustment feature. The rims themselves are unsurprisingly just the typical single wall alloys w/14ga spokes - those will be replaced & I've ordered some low cost ($22ea) fatty double wall rims w/that in mind: Weinmann Disc Bull Rim 26 x 2.00 36 Hole Black along w/another pair of my favorite cheap ($17ea) tires: Cheng Shin C1218 street tire, 26x2.125 - which w/a harder compound than you'd expect w/semislicks & very thick tread area, have proven to be very puncture resistant, durable tires that handle great.

The only actual disappointments w/the Mongoose 'Snarl' (other than it's silly name ofc lol) is it's kickstand is about 3/4" too short even w/o the added weight of motorization (it's b'cause of the long travel forks) & the stock seat is by far the most uncomfortable thing I've ever sat on - I suspect a splitting maul just might be worse, but I'm not going to experiment w/that to see & I just stole the comfy sprung seat off my old Stokvis for now.

BTW, while mine is a 26" (for the hub motor & wheel I already had), the Mongoose 'Snarl' is also available in a 29" if you're interested, I did a quick test fit w/a in-frame 2 stroke and it seems to fit w/o issue (knowing it's aluminum w/an oversized down tube ofc), but I should mention that w/these forks, even the 26" is a somewhat tall bike & you may not want the 29" if you're "vertically challenged" - I'm a hair over 6' and even the 26" is taller than I'm used to.

Anyhoo, on to the ebike stuff heh - to mount the Golden Motor 'Magic Pie' 48v 1000w hub I had to open the drop outs just a hair for it's oversized axle... not so much even "widen" them but smooth them just a little to allow the flat-faced axle to slide up & in there (prevents torque rotation). The only problem w/that is as the axle is slightly larger the disc rotor doesn't quite go all the way up into the caliper anymore, it's about 1/16" short of the edge of the brake pads which will cause uneven wear w/a "lip" developing on the pad. I'll hafta fix that ofc... but I'm going to wait till I've my new rims built. I'd already made a rotor spacer for the tadpole as it's caliper (Avid BB5) was too close to the hub - coincidentally & very fortunately the spacer jus' happened to be perfect for the Mongoose's caliper too so I didn't hafta mess w/that anyway.

I then stole my poor Schwinn's rear rack, which I'd already modified w/vertical supports to the dropouts (it was a seatpost clamp only design), bolted it up to the Mongoose (just needed one spacer for a support to clear the rear caliper) with a set of M-Wave Double Day Tripper Bicycle Panniers ($25) for the 48V 15AH LiFePO4 battery packs to go into. The M-Wave panniers are lined with plastic panels so while they're not "collapsible" the panels serve to spread the weight evenly. I'd custom ordered the LiFePO4s to be split into two battery packs for the tadpole, which has worked out well for this too - I just can't see having 16lbs mounted to the top of the rack like I'd hafta if it was a single pack... even split into two & mounted lower the handling w/the weight back there is noticeably... different - not bad, but defo different. I s'pose I'll get used to it, I'm just glad it's not the 30+lbs of SLAs lol

Then it was jus' a matter of routing the wiring & handlebar controls & I was ready for the first test ride - which went well for about 45 minutes, then things started to go badly... very badly. I started loosing connections, the throttle, the main power leads & the hub (internal controller) started beeping error messages - sometimes, when it felt like it... and it just kept getting worse until I had nothing at all.

Knowing all the secondary connectors (throttle, cruise control etc) were cheesy, flimsy little bits with wiggly pins - I figured I had a loose connection somewhere & started my diagnostics. Interestingly, while those connectors are sad, pathetic lil things they weren't actually the problem... or problems as it turned out & thus began my three day headache of sorting out what the heck was going on.

First the main power plug had an intermittent failure on the negative pin (left plug in third pic) an easy fault to find & even easier to fix w/a new, far better connector, I'd already gotten a Delphi Weatherpack (weatherproof connector set) for the taddy's harness so I had a plug handy. The hub then worked fine... for about 5 minutes & then quit entirely again. This was a major setback as it obv wasn't the main power plug anymore I had to do continuity tests on the rest of the wiring - and the ends of those wires are ofc inside the hub, being a "spiffy" internal controller and all. This meant I had to pull the hub itself apart and that's no easy task as the side covers act as the armature's housing (centering & bearing mounts) and ofc it's sealed to protect the internals from the wet.

Searching around online I found only vague references to the disassembly procedure & what I found just couldn't be right - it was suggested that after removing all the fasteners from the cover to "pound on the other side of the axle with a mallet" and that "should free up the other side's cover" ...while I may be an ebike novice, I'm no stranger to electric motors or wheels & bearings for that matter and that recommendation filled my brain with horrid images of bunged up bearings, mangled C clips and other, even less pleasant suspicions. Fearing the worst, I just made my own puller - much like any gear/pulley remover it bolted into the brake rotor mounts and applied pressure to the axle, removing just the cover on the same side.

With the cover off finally many things became apparent - first, I would have done a number on the sealed bearings & retaining clips had I followed that "advice" & second, they were decidedly stingy with the solder... everywhere. Now able to do continuity tests I found that the main junction block (where all the separate wiring joins to become one cable, to then go into the axle) had faulty connections, problematic as it's a solid chunk of molded plastic (third pic, thing on the right). I tried for a while to gently cut it apart, but after succeeding only in cutting me apart I simply removed it and made my own (forth pic), after cleaning up the mess I made of my thumb ofc. Then I resoldered all the internal connections so I wouldn't hafta go in there again. While it isn't mine (I was too cranky for camera crap at that point), the fifth pic shows the internal controller, complete with it's shoddy soldering. Apparently this is common as every pic of the internal controller I found had similar issues, there's more examples here in the Mongo's photobucket album.

http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/n...h_64e6605d.jpg http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/n...h_6aefd2f5.jpg http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/n...h_9a714533.jpg http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/n...h_de12432e.jpg http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/n...th_index-7.jpg

...so oddly, after replacing & resoldering all the connections except the ones I thought cheesy - everything tested out just fine... ok whatever, I can accept that lol, I've long distrusted electronics so I'll jus' chalk this up as another example why heh

I then reassembled everything again for another, hopefully more successful test run. I swapped out the lightweight tires the bike came with with the heavier duty tires the Schwinn was sporting, which turned out to be a mistake on my part as I hadn't noticed the sidewall damage from the Schwinn's maladjusted rim brakes & ended up with a wobble from the rear tire's broken belts. Oh well, just an excuse to get those spiffy new tires right?

Everything seemed to work well running it around the parking lot so I trusted it to get me to work, taking over the daily commute the now stripped Schwinn so faithfully ran for so long. Cruising a sustained 23, with a 25mph max (flat ground) and with decent acceleration I don't actually have to pedal to get started - I usually do anyway tho to lighten the load on the motor & battery reserve. After a coupla days of this and some playing around, I decided to do my weekly grocery run with it and that too went so well even laden down w/bachelor chow I decided to do a 15 mile lap just to see if that would make a dent in the seemingly endless battery reserve... and according to the (admittedly questionable) battery level lights on the throttle - it didn't, but there was no loss in power that I could see and as my lil 2A charger only took roughly two hours to top off the battery packs... I can only assume there was still quite a reserve. So this weekend I'm hoping to try twice that - to attempt a thirty mile trip, weather permitting ofc.




All in all I've really mixed feelings regarding the Golden Motor 'Magic Pie' setup... while it was a nightmare of shoddy soldering & cheesy connectors, with only very basic repairs it's turned out to be a decent hub drive that's very feature rich, the only other issue is the rim wasn't trued properly, but that's not unexpected w/any wheel purchase. Given it's relatively low cost ($240 for hub & wheel w/controller) I can't really recommend against it as it should be a really easy, simple ebike kit for the novice yet still having all the "bells and whistles" such as integrated lighting & horn, cruise control, true and adjustable regenerative braking, variable voltage compensation, anti theft, etc., etc., even reverse... not that such is needful with a bicycle lol

Thing is, I can't really recommend it either given the problems... I do suspect it would have been covered by the warranty had I tried it when I first got the thing and sent it back, Gary from Golden Motor Canada is reportedly good about such - but I didn't bother as I made the purchase about a year ago & I didn't feel like bothering with S&H and the wait times *shrug*

Anyway, here's a movie of some of my fifteen mile test run, just the four miles of the only bike path around here... I don't run the path with my stinky, loud & fast gas bikes, but I figured it'd be OK with the stealthy "clean" ebike lol, besides it was freezing cold & 6am - I figured there wasn't going to be many other riders, and there wasn't ;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tcGdt44KP0s



http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/n...h_6aefd2f5.jpg http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/n...h_e055612b.jpg http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/n...h_4eb17f43.jpg http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/n...h_7d343e54.jpg

NeilBlanchard 05-02-2012 10:53 AM

Are you intending to put a hub motor on the trike? And does the Golden motor have regenerative braking?

BarelyAWake 05-03-2012 04:29 AM

Yeppers... or rather I'm still considering it & thus the testing of the electric drive system on the Mongoose. I designed the taddy to be a hy/tribrid (49cc four stroke, electric hub & pedals) to maximize fuel efficiency - but it's as of yet still unclear if it's "worth it" with the extra weight & complexity. Here's an (outdated) pic;

http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/n...h_af9f0bcf.jpg w/more info here: http://ecomodder.com/forum/showthrea...ole-18414.html

& yes, the 'Pie has regenerative braking, switched levers & w/adjustable parameters (percentage of drag/charge) via USB/PC interface, which was one of the lures of this particular hub for the taddy application... but I haven't messed with it's settings yet as I seem to have misplaced the b'danged USB adapter :o

...which may actually be adversely affecting my evaluation as there are various preformance adjustments inaccessible otherwise, I gotta get on that lol

Grant-53 05-03-2012 06:23 PM

Next trick is to add a windshield or fairing.

BarelyAWake 05-05-2012 05:52 AM

A valid suggestion... but after much consideration I've decided for my usage, windshields & fairings are just too impractical & cumbersome TBH, particularly on this bicycle - which is serving only as a test platform for the ebike stuff anyway and will eventually be demoted to just another ICE powered winter beater/commuter.



More testing of some of some the taddy's components - this time lighting.

With any electric vehicle, power reserves are of paramount importance ofc, even a hybrid like the Zombrid as even though it's got an onboard charging system - every watt counts. Lighting can be a power hog, particularly if it's spiffy halogens so they're out of the question.

So after some shopping around I got a pair of LED MR16 Halogen replacement cool white spotlights (12V 4W/440 Lumen - 50 Watt Equivalent), one with a 30 beam angle (high beam) and one with a 60 for the low. Conveniently for the Mongoose, they just fit in the old headlight from my now stripped Schwinn, so I stuck the 30 beam one in there. Ofc not being 48v I have to use a DC to DC step down converter (60-48V in, 12V out) to power it and the LED taillight, which is simply a trim/marker light, commonly available at most auto parts stores - tho this too came off my ol' Schwinn.

After a coupla hours fiddling around with soldering connectors, more shrinkwrap & wire routing I was pleasantly surprised to find that it works really well! There's some peripheral efficiency loss w/e you use a converter, so the consumption wouldn't be as ideal as using 48v lights, but the loss is marginal - very marginal when you consider what 48v LEDs cost & their limited selection & availability lol

I should prolly point out that if you're looking for a low cost, reliable & effective lighting system for your own bike these 12v LED MR16 halogen replacement bulbs and the red trim/marker lights are commonplace & cheap (anywhere from 4-10 bucks ea), you'd just hafta come up w/your own 12v battery - a small SLA or better yet, a 12v ni-cd replacement power tool battery.

The MR16 is most commonly used for indoor track lighting BTW & while unusual for LEDs, the MR16 replacements are usually not polarity sensitive so you don't hafta worry if you wire it backwards;

http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/n...h_78d3809f.jpg http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/n...h_43edfbdd.jpg http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/n...h_e7afb08f.jpg http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/n...h_faac6c00.jpg http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/n...h_ff78abec.jpg

BarelyAWake 05-08-2012 06:51 AM

This past Sunday it was simply gorgeous out, so I hopped on the ebike & found some hilly, twisty back roads to go play on... I only ended up doing just under 20 miles this time, but given some of the terrain I encountered I was quite impressed - no battery fade & I found no hill that couldn't be conquered ;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PNhS5FJCqNo&hd=1

Sadly, Mongo's down for about a week as I'm having a new wheelset built w/some decent aluminum double walled rims, stainless spokes & a set of fatty (2.125) semislicks...

...and I was jus' starting to really enjoy myself lol

NeilBlanchard 05-08-2012 08:04 AM

You're flying! Do you have a speedometer?

Stan 05-08-2012 10:02 AM

Awesome thread...thanks! Totally bookmarked. I wish every builder wrote and documented this well. :thumbup:

I do have a question since I'm considering doing a MP3/Ping build myself: how much does the MP3 kit really cost delivered to you here in the USA? I can see their prices on the web, and they have some links to shipping, but it all seems very obscure. Same with Ping.

Some "real world" numbers would be really appreciated...TIA. :)

BarelyAWake 05-09-2012 03:57 AM

Neil - I've a lil Garmin Gecko 201 GPS I use in place of a speedometer... funny story actually, when I first got into motorizing bicycles I promptly went out & got myself a lil digital bicycle speedometer despite some occasional problems w/the application (calibration/EM interference/exponential error at greater speeds/failure), got home and was halfway through it's simple installation... and remembered I'd had the GPS for years and it was now just sitting in a drawer... oops :o So, I just gave the speedometer to a friend's kid instead.

Anyway to answer your question lol - TBH the feeling of speed is primarily because the camera is so close to the ground, I find the ebike impressive, but it's real speeds I've encountered so far are;

32mph max (downhill/vid)
25mph sustained (level ground/vid)
10mph (uphill - not in vid)

The GPS's oh so "professional" mount system BTW, electrical tape;
http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/n...h_4eb17f43.jpg




Thanks Stan, good to hear - I tend towards being a bit long-winded, but now I've an excuse right? :p

You're dead on about your concerns regarding the S&H fees, the MP seems to be saddled with a disproportionately high shipping cost, around a hundred dollars if I remember correctly. I thought at first it might have been some mysterious Canadian export/US import fee as I was getting mine through GM Canada... but shocked at the S&H I hunted around more - only to find all the domestic retailers had similar S&H charges, or even yet more.

I can only surmise they may be deferring some of their import costs to the customer as supplementary S&H, to keep the "retail price" competitive, or that they don't actually have the MPs in stock and just drop ship them from China w/the additional costs associated with such... I dunno TBH, it could be there's some tax, levy or fee associated with it - but that seems unlikely as I've not heard of such w/any other electric motors... while it is heavy (about 20lbs), it still seems a bit much for S&H alone.

I went ahead and got mine from GM Canada anyway as even with the S&H the MP is still very price competitive, but mostly because the owner of GM Canada is very active on Golden Motor's support forum, unlike any other retailer I found for the MP: goldenmotor.com - Index ... ofc as it's a support forum you're probably aware it's comprised mostly of the difficulties encountered and may not accurately reflect the product's overall satisfaction rate... or it might lol *shrug* hard to tell.

PingBattery on the other hand is a straight forward case - I don't remember exactly what I paid for S&H other than it was a marginal amount, significantly less than the MP although the battery packs I ordered are close to the same weight (16.5lbs) and all the way from China, they also got here promptly - a business week as I recall. I ordered direct from Ping simply because I wished a custom pack built, the 48v 15ah split into dual, separate packs to facilitate the installation on my taddy project (limited space). You might wish to consider that yourself as it makes it far easier to mount/provides better weight and balance as you can keep 'em low in panniers or w/e. Ping only charged an additional $10 for that customization, even though it included additional wiring for the BMS (battery management system)... or you could order from the ebay storefront PingBattery store eBay and get "free" S&H.

While the Magic Pie has mixed reviews, some love it & some hate it - it's apparent Ping is almost adored by the ebike community. I do know I would never get the batteries offered as part of an ebike "kit" as they're so critical, perhaps even more so that which motor you choose - and you'll get a LOT more for your money w/packs purchased separately.

I hope this helped, I know I was a little vague with the numbers you wished - but my purchases were about a year ago so even if I remembered clearly they may no longer be accurate... sorry 'bout that :)

Stan 05-09-2012 06:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BarelyAWake (Post 306087)
Thanks Stan, good to hear - I tend towards being a bit long-winded, but now I've an excuse right? :p

Or at least an audience! :thumbup:

Quote:

You're dead on about your concerns regarding the S&H fees, the MP seems to be saddled with a disproportionately high shipping cost, around a hundred dollars if I remember correctly. I thought at first it might have been some mysterious Canadian export/US import fee as I was getting mine through GM Canada... but shocked at the S&H I hunted around more - only to find all the domestic retailers had similar S&H charges, or even yet more.

I can only surmise they may be deferring some of their import costs to the customer as supplementary S&H, to keep the "retail price" competitive, or that they don't actually have the MPs in stock and just drop ship them from China w/the additional costs associated with such... I dunno TBH, it could be there's some tax, levy or fee associated with it - but that seems unlikely as I've not heard of such w/any other electric motors... while it is heavy (about 20lbs), it still seems a bit much for S&H alone.

I went ahead and got mine from GM Canada anyway as even with the S&H the MP is still very price competitive, but mostly because the owner of GM Canada is very active on Golden Motor's support forum, unlike any other retailer I found for the MP: goldenmotor.com - Index ... ofc as it's a support forum you're probably aware it's comprised mostly of the difficulties encountered and may not accurately reflect the product's overall satisfaction rate... or it might lol *shrug* hard to tell.

PingBattery on the other hand is a straight forward case - I don't remember exactly what I paid for S&H other than it was a marginal amount, significantly less than the MP although the battery packs I ordered are close to the same weight (16.5lbs) and all the way from China, they also got here promptly - a business week as I recall. I ordered direct from Ping simply because I wished a custom pack built, the 48v 15ah split into dual, separate packs to facilitate the installation on my taddy project (limited space). You might wish to consider that yourself as it makes it far easier to mount/provides better weight and balance as you can keep 'em low in panniers or w/e. Ping only charged an additional $10 for that customization, even though it included additional wiring for the BMS (battery management system)... or you could order from the ebay storefront PingBattery store eBay and get "free" S&H.

While the Magic Pie has mixed reviews, some love it & some hate it - it's apparent Ping is almost adored by the ebike community. I do know I would never get the batteries offered as part of an ebike "kit" as they're so critical, perhaps even more so that which motor you choose - and you'll get a LOT more for your money w/packs purchased separately.

I hope this helped, I know I was a little vague with the numbers you wished - but my purchases were about a year ago so even if I remembered clearly they may no longer be accurate... sorry 'bout that :)
That was actually a big help...thanks! I've already been spending time over on the GM-Canada website and forum, and have seen all of Gary's MP3 vids. I need to do some more homework before plunking down money, but I think I'm going to do a bicycle rather than dive into the deep end with an electric car project. Thanks again!

BarelyAWake 05-25-2012 04:57 AM

NP at all Stan, glad my babblin' could be of use ;)





Well, it's been almost two weeks since I could ride this silly thing & lemme tell ya, it was a looooooong two weeks lol

I'd dropped my wheelset off at my local bike shop a while ago to have the new double wall alloy rims & stainless spokes laced up, but things had gotten a lil weird right from the get-go... First, the rims I'd received were not the advertised "26x2.00" - they're an actual 26x1.95 & very clearly labeled in fact;

http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/n...h_bdc588cb.jpg

...or rather were very clearly labeled as ofc I don't like stickers & promptly peeled 'em off.

No matter - it's a minor difference to say the least & they're still dang sweet rims for a mere $20 each & while the 'Pie comes with a deep V double wall, the Mongoose ofc didn't & I've long ago gotten tired of riding cheesy single wall alloys, particularly unnerving when it's the front heh

The front wheel build went as well as you'd expect, Zach had it laced up in a 4x, tuned & done before you could blink an eye - not a surprise as he's a pro & that one was by far the most mundane, "standard" wheel build I'd ever handed him. The 'Pie wheel build was another issue entirely, as there was a bit of a learning curve.

We knew the spokes are unusually short, that's obvious - but he figured correctly that he'd be able to find some in stainless w/rolled threads anyway, the hitch was we'd chatted a bit about a cross pattern for the 'Pie, done typically for additional rigidity & strength. He did the math (a lot of math) & ordered up the custom spokes & we waited for them to arrive.

When they arrived he quickly realized there was a problem, due to the very short spokes & the way the 'Pie is drilled it can only take a radial pattern, so the spokes we'd gotten were the wrong length. We chatted about it a bit & agreed that as the spokes are so short it's a really strong, rigid wheel even with just a radial pattern - so he figured the math again & ordered up another set of custom spokes... & we waited... again.

When they finally showed up he had the wheel built & ready for me that same day despite the fact it's hectic as heck there, it's the middle of spring rush after all. Overjoyed that I could get Mongo on the road again I immediately bailed outa work to go get it & here's the result;

http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/n...h_128752e2.jpg http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/n...h_ea0425f7.jpg http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/n...h_6635f174.jpg http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/n...h_fbf3753e.jpg

Worth the wait? Definitely. Rollin' on a set of perfectly tuned wheels w/the fatty 2.125 semislicks I love so much, the ride is smooth as glass... well, when the road is anyway lol & I can stop worrying quite so much about every lil pothole that comes along FTW

BarelyAWake 05-29-2012 03:23 AM

The weather simply awesome I've been out riding all over the place... this silent ebike thing is really addictive @.@

...but this also means I can give some feedback on the 48v 15ah LiFePO4 battery pack w/the 'Pie as I finally managed to pooch it out. Running a "worst case scenario" full tilt boogie all the time (100% throttle), breezy weather on twisty roads & hilly terrain with disabled regenerative braking, with no attempt made to coast, pedal assist or conserve power in any way & some stop n'go downtown riding & a lil bit of dirt trail thrown in for good measure I managed 27.9 miles... & more mixed feelings lol

I am completely satisfied with this range as it's more than enough for my local needs & it's absolutely perfect for it's intended use, the "tribrid" taddy project... but it does bring to light the downside of electrics, it becomes very clear why they're not so popular in a rural area like this one. While I'm conveniently located between a couple of small towns, each roughly 8 miles away (thus 16mi round trip) so I wouldn't normally come even close to my "point of no return" - being limited to no more than roughly 30 miles even commuting w/a recharge point (while at work or w/e) & given the investment, I can see why some would balk at the idea *shrug* I've no problem with it... but I also can see how this setup is somewhat limited, as a commuter or supplementary transport, my 100 mile weekend wanderabouts are still my gasbike's domain heh

As I suspected the little "battery level" lights on the 'Pie's throttle are completely useless lol, it's green till DEAD w/no fade or warning, the entire system just shuts down. Unplugging, waiting a mo' & plugging it back in again resets everything & now the level indicators will light red & yellow... and you'll get maybe another fifty feet before it all shuts down again, without even the yellow light going out first.

No surprise at all given the battery type & the limitations of such a simple gauge. Fortunately I figured I was using up my luck and was only a coupla miles from home at the time. At least now I know my range and can ride accordingly... I didn't take any vids this time, but other'n downtown & the lil bit of trails it's the same terrain as the vids I made before...



...and this morning's madness was more taddy component testing - while completely usable with Mongo, it's not exactly in line with the power conservation obsession most ebikers hold on high *shrug* so I'll prolly not use it to it's full potential w/Mongo...

Still, as the taddy is a tribrid & the 48v 15ah LiFePO4 packs have worked out so well I decided to go ahead & tinker up some more goodies, this time a power supply/charging dock tapping off my 48 to 12v converter. Already wired up to power my 12v DC LED head & taillight, it was a simple matter of buying a cheap car cigarette lighter adapter with 2 USB ports, busting it open to cut the dealie off the back & resolder better wires to it & sticking it back together again.

I added a main power switch so I can easily shut the whole thing down, but I used a flush face switch (scavenged out of a PC power supply) so it doesn't so easily shut itself down bouncing around in a pannier with w/e crap might be in there. As I had no pretty lil project box I just did a variant of the "duct tape pack" like the custom LiFePO4s have - but this time a "patented" cable tie pack method lol

It ain't pretty, but it was easy to make, safe & works a treat - and best yet I can charge any kind of small battery like for my GPS, camera or whatever, listen to tunes w/the MP3 player charging (the speakers are USB powered too) and I don't even hafta worry about the lame battery in my netbook any more, plug & play FTW;


http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/n...h_28873f9f.jpg http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/n...h_d9b2b8da.jpg http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/n...h_51cc0168.jpg http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/n...h_44fdb48b.jpg http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/n...h_a03466f5.jpg

There goes the thirty mile range heh...

skyking 05-29-2012 09:18 AM

wow, thanks for this thread. I am sitting here thinking about how I can get my brother in law's wheelchair powered with one of these in a custom trike.

BarelyAWake 05-30-2012 02:37 AM

Thanks for reading my babblin' skyking :D

They do offer wheelchair conversions;

wheelchair conversion kits & E-Wheelchair - Golden Motor Canada

However, at 400W/24V they obv don't have the preformance of the 48v/1000w ebike conversion - but using one or two of the ebike hubs could be problematic with a wheelchair as the ebike ones are double sided solid axles, an issue that thwarted my initial plans to make my tribrid tadpole a three wheel drive with electric front hubs & ICE rear drive, so I had to settle for 1WD... tho fortunately even the ebike hubs have a (factory disabled) reverse feature, somewhat needful with a trike or wheelchair.

...but you mentioned "a custom trike" as well & that opens up a whole range of additional possibilities, so many that all I can really say is "Do it, it'll be awesome!" lol

There have been a number of folks that after seeing the taddy, have asked me regarding custom electric trikes for those that are normally restricted to wheelchairs, as a trike could be far better suited for road & distance use... and there are some minor complications you are prolly aware of but I'll mention them anyway - the first being the type of disability, if they've no use of their legs a Delta trike (one wheel in front) can be extremely difficult for the individual to mount, as they're typically a converted bicycle or bicycle style & thus you'll need to be able to swing a leg up and over. This can be somewhat alleviated by using a step-through frame or "girl's bike" but it still requires quite a bit of mobility, then there's the fact that deltas are inherently unstable compared to a tadpole configuration.

A Tadpole trike (two wheels in front) can be easier to mount & far more stable, but they are usually (tho not always) a recumbent design & thus very prone & low to the ground, which can also present difficulty for those with limited mobility. The majority of readily available trikes both delta and tadpole are also intended to be primarily HPVs, so their pedal systems are usually intrinsic yet would just be in the way - the tadpoles normally have removable pedal booms, but some manner of foot/leg rest/restraint would have to be considered ofc, as the dreaded "leg suck" is an issue even for those with full mobility. The seemingly misnamed "clipless" pedals are the most common solution for that - but they too require at least some leg & foot functionality...

There's always alternatives & solutions and I don't mean to be discouraging in any way, I really think it's a great idea - there's defo ways around these issues and they're relatively minor anyway, I jus' thought I should bring them up for consideration "just in case" and that it may be best to go with your idea of a "custom" trike built expressly for this purpose :)

Here's yet another configuration option without any of the aforementioned issues... It's ofc not my vid & please forgive the "music" & truly unfortunate choice of names lol, the machine itself is still pretty freakin' sweet ;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I_Ql86bQya0

skyking 05-30-2012 03:08 AM

He has a conversion device that puts one steerable front drive wheel on his conventional wheelchair. Old tech, and he never used it really.
I'd take the big magic pie, put it on a fork, weld up a custom thing ( that is my thing, custom). It would fit on his current chair as a front drive wheel.

Stan 05-30-2012 12:12 PM

I have a paraplegic friend who rides his trike all the time. It is a conventional design with one wheel in front, as is every one I've seen paraplegics use. The front wheel casters, with directional control maintained by differential turning of the rears. One could install a front hub motor if wanted, but you'd have to rig some sort of freehand throttle.

skyking 05-30-2012 03:23 PM

It would have handlebars and the front wheel would turn, with the throttle on the grip like on a bike.
The problem is getting enough weight on that front drive. The weight bias in a wheelchair is way back over the back wheels.
The weight of wheel and battery will help some, and I think he could scoot forward a couple of inches OK.

Grant-53 06-07-2012 08:40 PM

Craig Vetter has some information on his site on a trike design for those with leg injury. See the human power tab.

I am finishing up a cheap and easy fairing design for my city bike that would fit the Mongoose. Based on a piece of 24 x 48 plastic, it would take a person less than 2 hrs to complete and mount.

BarelyAWake 09-29-2012 03:27 AM

Well... it's been awhile (soz folks, been busy jus' cruising & havin' fun) and despite my intent, my plan to just use this as a temporary test platform for a weekend or two - it's now fall, the temperature is starting to plummet and somehow about three thousand miles have rolled past already, a coupla thou less than my usual summer average due to the limitations of an ebike it's true, but still enough to have gotten me from coast to coast with the only issues encountered being a wonky throttle (easily fixed), one flat tire & having to remember to periodically lube the chain & cables...

...not too shabby considering I only threw this thing together on a whim lol

So the time has come to strip it down & stick a two smoker in there, to make it the winter beater commuter the Mongoose was meant to be... right?

...right?

...

Um... right?

Maybe not lol - after much deliberation, and I do mean a lot of arguing with myself I've decided what the heck, might as well kick it to a whole new level of testing and abuse, to leave it as is and actually try and use an ebike in some of the worst conditions for such imaginable - a Maine winter with it's sub-zero temperatures and worse yet, a near constant immersion in the devil's brew of rock salt and calcium chloride we use on the roads around here.

Bad enough on it's own, but take an aluminum frame & add a high electric current to the already existing issues of galvanic electrolysis and dissimilar metal corrosion and it's a recipe for an electrochemical bath of doom... certain death for the humble ebike right?

Maybe... probably... almost certainly actually...

...then again there's only one way to find out lol and TBH, much as I do like the in-frame two smokers I just don't feel like building another. I figure I've gotten my money's worth outa this hub & the batteries are where the investment is in any case, they should be well protected & safe from harm tucked away in the panniers - or at least I hope so lol

So I've gone ahead and ordered a buncha toys to "winterize" Mongo, some knobby tires to replace the semi-slicks & no, they're not studded - I've found lotsa lil but tall lugs works well enough in the ice & snow to make the $100+ investment in studded bicycle tires not really worth it, nor the effort of making my own. Some fenders that may not look as "cool" as the 'Topeak Defender' fenders that are on it now - but while I think the Topeaks defo look sweet, they don't actually work very well save to keep just some of the crap outa my face, for winter use I need a bit more, so I got the kinda dorky but very effective mud flaps as well.

I've gotten a set of replacement panniers too - Mongo has been runnin' around with the batteries in a set of M-Wave Double Day Tripper panniers, but I've really been less than impressed with them overall. They're a lil smaller than I expected when I got 'em but that's not the issue - the problem I have w/them is they're already falling apart... tho I s'pose "already" is comparative considering the mileage, price & use lol - w/e the case may be I need new ones so I'm gonna give the Avenirs below a whirl. Other'n the usual use for panniers, groceries, tools and w/e else eventually accumulates in what are essentially "guy purses" (laugh - it's true), mine not only need to hold & support the batteries, for winter use I'll need to create some sorta smash guard for the batteries, to protect them from the inevitable impact & slide damage - riding in the winter isn't a case of "if" but when ya crash lol *shrug* happens, hopefully not too frequently heh

Though it may well prove to be a can of wishful thinking, I grabbed some marine grade anti-corrosive for both the electrical connections & general surface use. The stuff actually works pretty dang good for it's intended use (salt water boating) so I'm hoping it'll help stave off the worst of the corrosive effects. I'll need some di-electric grease gloop gobbed here & there, but I've already got some somewhere in my shop... I think, if not the hardware store will help me out I'm sure.

...and I finally ordered a center stand, which is not really part of the winterization list so much as jus' a dealie-yo I've kept forgetting to order since I built the silly thing *shrug* Side (kick) stand or center - neither one works very well in ice & snow, but kick stands don't work very well at all w/such a competitively heavy, tall bike as this lol, we'll skip right over how long I've spaced getting one or why heh;

Kenda K837 Dart Tire 26" x 2.10" Wire Black Wall
Kenda K816 Aggressive MTB Tire, 26" x 2.10" Black Wall;
http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/n...ps9ac2dd5c.jpg

Planet Bike Mud Flap Set for ATB Fenders
Planet Bike Full ATB Front and Rear Bicycle Fender Set (60mm Wide);
http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/n...ps76ee8bb6.jpg

Avenir Metro III Panniers (2, 165 ci);
http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/n...psa56a9e25.jpg

CRC Industries 06026 Corrosion Inhibitor;
http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/n...ps97577093.jpg

Acclaim Double Black Kickstand;
http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/n...ps9846893e.jpg

...and now I wait for the blasted brown truck again as I sit and wonder still - am I blithely consigning my trusty steed to a horrible, untimely death... or can an ebike manage a malicious Maine winter?

I guess we'll see...

ecomodded 09-29-2012 01:31 PM

Love your eMTB, looks like a pleasure to ride and by the sounds of your long tests it is.
You mentioned corrosion issues with it which made me think of the corrosion issues boats have and that their sacrificially zinc Anodes could protect your bike,from corroding as well.

Cobb 09-29-2012 04:42 PM

Id considered getting 1 to add as a helping motor to my geo metro or Insight, then later considered getting 2 of them to mount to a trailer and maybe use said trailer tocarry the batteries. I was looking at 2 of the1000 watt 48 volt ones, I think they would deliver 45mph, however not sure how the tires would fair if the vehicle they are attached to went to 60 or so.

Do you think from your experience one of those motors would make any change on a vehicles fuel economy using it to use or pull a car?

BarelyAWake 09-30-2012 02:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ecomodded (Post 330940)
Love your eMTB, looks like a pleasure to ride and by the sounds of your long tests it is.
You mentioned corrosion issues with it which made me think of the corrosion issues boats have and that their sacrificially zinc Anodes could protect your bike,from corroding as well.

Thanks, it is very much a pleasure to ride - more than a little bit to my surprise actually... I had no idea, in fact I was convinced that compared to gas engines the "lackluster preformance" of a relatively low powered ebike would leave me underwhelmed, even disappointed, that it would prove to be no more than a novelty, a toy in comparison to my needs...

I was wrong :o

It is slower than my gasbikes - but the silence more than makes up for it and I think that's what I didn't anticipate & it's something that's a touch difficult to explain... it's like all the fun of perpetually going downhill on a bicycle but w/o the fuss & muss of a gas engine *shrug* a bit odd coming from a born motorhead, but there it is lol

The sacrificial zinc anode is a good thought & thank you, unfortunately for them to work properly they need be immersed/buried in the grounding field (such as underwater or underground) so it can become the point of lowest resistance. If it's isolated from the ground the electrons can't be discharged through it and a rubber tired vehicle is fairly well isolated... I'd need a grounding strap & drag it along behind me - which is potentially viable, but somewhat impractical.



Quote:

Originally Posted by Cobb (Post 330977)
Id considered getting 1 to add as a helping motor to my geo metro or Insight, then later considered getting 2 of them to mount to a trailer and maybe use said trailer tocarry the batteries. I was looking at 2 of the1000 watt 48 volt ones, I think they would deliver 45mph, however not sure how the tires would fair if the vehicle they are attached to went to 60 or so.

Do you think from your experience one of those motors would make any change on a vehicles fuel economy using it to use or pull a car?

The hub I'm using? Well, if this wasn't the ecomodder forum I'd say no, it'd not make a difference... but here it's well understood that every tiny little bit helps so I'll rephrase that to it'd not make a positive change worth the effort and expense lol

It's just not enough for significant automotive scale assistance, nor are they nearly durable enough for an automotive application even with as small & light a car as a Metro or Insight. 1000 watts is a mere 1.34hp & worse yet, most electric motors are somewhat self-limiting - as in they'll only reach a given RPM at their rated input. This particular hub motor reaches it's maximum at just over 25mph (also dictated by wheel diameter, in this instance it's a 26"), beyond that such as going downhill or w/e it simply increases drag... and adding drag is ofc not desired when trying to achieve a better fuel economy.

It's an issue I've worried about with even a smaller scale project, my http://ecomodder.com/forum/showthrea...ole-18414.html - while the electric will help to reduce fuel consumption during acceleration & thus contribute to fuel economy with "around town" stop and go traffic, as the cruise speed of the four stroke is in excess of the electric drive - will I have worsened fuel economy during prolonged "high speed" cruising due to this added drag? More than likely that's the case, the question unanswered yet is if it's enough to be a problem... in which case a clutched/freewheeled mid-drive may be a solution - but I've not gotten that far yet lol

Anyway, all is not lost - they make drives far more suitable for your interests and may well prove less expensive than doubling up these bicycle hub motors. Check out the 'Electric/Hybrid Car Conversion Kit' on goldenmotor.com for some examples. I can't outright recommend these motors as I've not used them ofc, but a 10kw (13.4hp) motor is $765 & a 5kw (6.7hp) a mere $446 (almost the same price as the 1kw bicycle conversion kit) and they've controllers designed for the needs & speeds of electric or electric assisted cars & motorcycles, I'd assume they're far more an economical choice in both investment and results :)

Cobb 10-01-2012 06:06 PM

Thanks, Ill look those up. I dont know how much my ac uses, but it can cost me 15mpg. I bet one of those hub wheel motor in its place could give me a +7?

Grant-53 12-02-2012 05:30 PM

Since the snow is falling here I suggest you take a peek at my coroplast fairing in the bike pic thread. Very cheap and easy way to gain 4 mph and keep the rain or snow off.

BarelyAWake 12-18-2012 03:56 AM

Mongo's first snow play day BTW;

http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/n...ps2102fc04.jpg

& so it begins...

radioranger 12-18-2012 05:11 AM

Just wondering how much it all cost for everything and is there any commercially made bike you would recommend

BarelyAWake 12-18-2012 06:18 AM

Well this setup was a conversion kit, $400 for the kit itself & another $600 for the 15ah LiFePO4 battery pack (not including the bike ofc)... but to be honest I'm not well versed enough to "recommend" any particular kit over another, or even a complete pre-built commercially made bike save to say that a conversion is often more economical & is very, very easy as with a hub motor, it's just a wheel swap and adding a rack & controls.

There's such a diversity in possible alternatives and applications, it's tough to say which is "best" - much depends on what you may want...

radioranger 12-18-2012 08:32 AM

Thanks for the info and great job on documenting your bike.

justme1969 12-18-2012 10:06 AM

very cool. yes indeed cool we all should have one.

BarelyAWake 12-19-2012 05:45 AM

Thanks guys :)

hmm... I should prolly clarify that the "$400 for the kit" is an adjusted price, while it's more than I paid - that's for the new, updated GM MP3 which reportedly has better connectors & wiring (I've the old MP2) & the S&H is far less than it used to be, for w/e reason lol


There are ofc less costly alternates & as I "stole" the MP2 from my taddy project I figured I'd try a different one to replace it - here's an excerpt from the thread: http://ecomodder.com/forum/showthrea...ole-18414.html as an example;

Quote:

So I decided to experiment some more, to take a chance with a ever so slightly more powerful hub motor, yet one that doesn't have all the bells'n whistles... or reputation for customer support as it's a "generic" no name knock-off... but w/e lol, I s'pose we'll see *shrug*

It's from a fleabay merchant, so the listings expire and as I've not tested it yet I can't recommend it.... but it seems to have some potential, it's rather drab name is: 'Rear Hub Motor Kit with 26" Rim, 7 Speed Gears Flywheel and Brake Disk' which supposedly is capable of up to 1200w from;

items in moreBatteryStore store on eBay!

http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/n...ps5a1f7129.jpg http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/n...psab97514e.jpg

...for a mere $250, I'm willing enough to give the kit a shot, but ofc that doesn't include the pesky batteries - the real cost of an electric setup.
...not particularly surprising, there were some issues - they sent me the incorrect controller (36 instead 0f 48v) & there was a small amount of damage to the rim - both of which they offered to make good on via a warranty return, which I didn't bother with as I've decided to use the 36v and I upgrade rims in any case lol

I've tested it (stationary run-up) & it seems to function fine, can't really tell much more at this stage as it's off getting a new rim laced on. It is about a 1/2" wider that the typical multi-speed chainstay width so some spreading is in order... but I figured I'd mention it anyway as it does seem a good deal :cool:

BarelyAWake 12-28-2012 12:12 PM

Homeward bound;

http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/n...ps42782a9c.jpg

BarelyAWake 12-31-2012 02:16 AM

Well... winter riding is always a case of not "if" but when ya crash and my first of the season was a doozy, it should suffice to remind me of my mortality for at least a lil while. Defo a case of "operator error" I'd been decelerating down a slight hill before a turn, after the turn & on crunchy snow pack I thought I'd the traction to gun it up the next incline, accustomed & complacent with an ebike's "lack" of horsepower.

Ofc I didn't account for the glare ice after the crunchy patch, ofc I failed to remember an ebike's torque and the second my rear tire touched the ice I immediately experienced a massive wheelspin, the bike kicking out from under me I met the pavement with a startlingly fast vengeance, smashing into the ground on my left arm & tumbling up the hill with the bike inverted atop me, for a moment anyway lol

I then learned another nice aspect of ebikes, as one can lay there in a heap for quite a while, sucking wind & contemplating one's general foolishness without concern of a runaway bike or fuel spill FTW

No real harm done though with just the rear rack knocked askance a bit, the unphone mount unmounted and mirror cockeyed & all easily fixed... after I recover some range of movement in my left arm, which is currently refusing to cooperate, which ofc made for a very interesting ride the rest of the way home lol

http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/n...ps9c9fa7fb.jpg http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/n...psca1ba5ba.jpg http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/n...ps19bdae2f.jpg http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/n...ps81a2a0db.jpg

skyl4rk 03-21-2013 08:48 PM

ouch

done that before, I'm not bike commuting on ice anymore

when you go down, you go down fast and hit hard

BarelyAWake 03-22-2013 04:13 AM

Defo skyl4rk, you'd think after four years of all season riding in Maine, I'd have figured that out by now... but nooooo, every winter I find myself relearning the same lessons again lol

While I've been all healed up for awhile now (turns out I'd fractured the radius in my left forearm...gettin' old I guess), I didn't bother fixing Mongo's rack supports, they're just a bit bent & I figured if I fixed them, I'd prolly just bash 'em again, but so far so good *crosses fingers*

Once used to the sneaky torque of an electric, this ebike has turned out to be my best, most reliable commuter ever - since I built the thing (roughly 4500 very hard miles ago) all I've needed to do is lube the chain & cables, fix one flat & repair the thumb throttle, which busted only due to my carelessness (yea, I dropped the bike parking it on squishy ground)... none of that is really a failure on it's part.

As a result & despite some naysayers ("geez -you can't ebike in winter!") I've learned that an electric with essentially it's one moving part is by far more trustworthy than anything else I've tried, subject to both cold & caustic conditions it jus' keeps gettin' me where I need to go with nary a complaint & best yet, no needy begging for ongoing maintenance, no costs of upkeep, no costs at all for that matter heh - leaving me finally free to tinker other things ;)

http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/n...ps93c0b736.jpg http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/n...ps88a96d68.jpg http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/n...ps364d2d3d.jpg http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/n...ps4675a31c.jpg

Slow_s10 03-22-2013 08:11 AM

What an awesome project. I just read through the whole thing and I am quite impressed. It really makes me wish I lived colser to where I work because I could definitely see myself commuting on an e-bike. Do you plan on doing anything else with the bike or are you just happy with it? Also what ever happened to the tadpole?

skyking 03-22-2013 10:07 AM

Glad to hear you are on the mend.
I have given more thought to the wheelchair ideas. I may build a 3 wheel single rear drive trike that he can back his existing chair into. Not going to be as light or convenient, but I can optimize it for travel, and build in a lift system to lift his chair up for decent ground clearance. I am not at all comfortable with two e-motors and only differential power for steering at any high speed. Things happen too fast :)

BarelyAWake 03-23-2013 01:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slow_s10 (Post 362690)
What an awesome project. I just read through the whole thing and I am quite impressed. It really makes me wish I lived colser to where I work because I could definitely see myself commuting on an e-bike. Do you plan on doing anything else with the bike or are you just happy with it? Also what ever happened to the tadpole?

Thanks Slow, naw I can't think of anything I'd really wanna change or add on the ebike 'cept get my blasted summer tires back on it ofc lol, this 'un seems to have turned out just right the first time... ofc basic hub motor bikes like this really aren't much of a project, it's truly just a "bolt n'go" in most cases.

In contrast, yea I'm still slowly tinkerin' away on the taddy - I did sneak it out for a quick test run (or two... mebbe three... ok, so all day then), if you'd like there's some babble about it here;
http://ecomodder.com/forum/362121-post75.html

Quote:

Originally Posted by skyking (Post 362707)
Glad to hear you are on the mend.
I have given more thought to the wheelchair ideas. I may build a 3 wheel single rear drive trike that he can back his existing chair into. Not going to be as light or convenient, but I can optimize it for travel, and build in a lift system to lift his chair up for decent ground clearance. I am not at all comfortable with two e-motors and only differential power for steering at any high speed. Things happen too fast :)

Yea, that seems like a good plan - not only for safety but simplicity & ease of use. Twin electric motors would help with both acceleration & terrain, but at the cost of ...well cost, but also range & added complexity. There's also the fact that given the relative simplicity of electrics, it's always something that could be added on later *shrug* I think in this case the chassis is prolly the most important bit :cool:

Grant-53 03-24-2013 03:36 PM

The secret to riding on ice is in the tires-studs, chains, or what ever it takes. Maybe adjusting the resistance in the controls or a form of traction control like the superbikes use. Definitely I like my fairing in the cold and rain, at $10 of plastic is silly not to have one. Hope you mend well. The boys had me join their karate lessons so I learned to fall safely.


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