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-   -   Moon Disc Hubcaps vs Insight Wheels (https://ecomodder.com/forum/showthread.php/moon-disc-hubcaps-vs-insight-wheels-6152.html)

1337 11-24-2008 12:51 PM

Moon Disc Hubcaps vs Insight Wheels
 
I'm interested in improving the wheel aerodynamics of my Protege. I'm considering buying either the flat Insight alloys or some moon disc hubcaps.

Does anyone have any experience with Insight wheels; are they nearly as low-drag as moon discs?

One would anticipate that the Insight wheels would be much more expensive than moon discs, but junkyards are selling sets of Insight wheels for $100-150. Also, I need new tires, so regardless of what I buy, I will need tires mounted and balanced.

Has anyone ever had moon discs stolen? They'd be easier to steal than alloys.

Tango Charlie 11-24-2008 01:48 PM

I can't speak to Insight wheels, but as far as moonies go, some guys have used pizza pans as dirt-cheap alternatives.

PaleMelanesian 11-24-2008 02:48 PM

Those insight wheels are the lightest thing around, and this close to being as aerodynamic as moon discs. If you can score a set for that price, do it.

Ryland 11-25-2008 11:59 AM

the insight rims should win on both weight and aerodynamics, because the whole rim is engined, not just the face, mood disc hub caps also bulge out, insight rims are pretty flat on the face.

MetroMPG 11-25-2008 12:08 PM

Are they lighter than 13 inch Civic VX rims? I think you'd be further ahead going that route, putting narrower 13 inch (lower CD & A) tires on, and adding discs.

PaleMelanesian 11-25-2008 12:12 PM

Citing ourselves here, but: http://ecomodder.com/forum/showthrea...eels-1407.html

whokilledthejams 11-27-2008 12:12 PM

If you don't cheap out on your Moon discs and actually get the Moon brand, they're extremely difficult to remove with something other than a claw hammer. Mine remain unstolen, even as commodity prices went up. Your results may vary.

However, for the same price, go for the Insight wheels. The lightness alone makes them worth it.

Bror Jace 11-27-2008 08:54 PM

I have full moon discs ... and do fear that leaving my car on the street or in a commercial parking lot for a day or more may mean stolen hubcaps ... but it hasn't happened yet. One time, for a car left all day in a supermarket lot, I pulled them off myself and threw them into the hatch to be safe.

Keep in mind, you are adding a few pounds to each steel rim, though. The alloys will be MUCH lighter in total ... maybe 6-7 pounds in unsprung weight. This may be significant if you see a lot of stop-and-go traffic.

Lastly, I don't know the effect they have on mileage ... but my record keeping suggests it is very small ... certainly less than 1 mpg on my Civic. So, don't expect a significant return on your investment.

1337 11-28-2008 01:22 AM

thanks for all the help. one other idea...does anyone know the aerodynamic properties and weight of first gen civic hybrid wheels?

the civic hybrid wheels look less aerodynamic than the insight wheels, but the civic hybrid wheels look more aero optimized than, say, vx wheels.

aerohead 12-06-2008 04:17 PM

Moonies
 
The only hard data I have comes from an old article,Road &Track,Sep 1982,Trans Am development.The aspirated wheelcover(which would approximate the Insight aluminum wheel),affected the Cd of the Pontiac by 0.003,as compared to a fully closed-off Moon wheelcover.A second article for the Subaru XT yielded a 2.75%drag difference with a vented cover compared to a Moon.That would be hard to measure at the gas pump but might emerge from the signal-to-noise ratio if tested in quick succession,with and without.---------- Since a full wheelcover can better insure clean flow downstream (ie.for a boat-tail) they would be the preferred choice.If no mods are planned for the aft-body,then maybe the aspirated wheel is just fine.

NeilBlanchard 12-06-2008 07:00 PM

Hi,

I'm hoping that someone on the forum has seen/used the MoonCraft covers made for the Prius, that have a single hole in the center. This would seem to allow air flow out (to help cool brakes a bit?) and not add anything appreciable to the drag. I'm holding out the possibility that this could be a good modification for summer driving.

http://www.autofiends.com/wp-content.../mooncraft.jpg
http://www.mooncraft.jp/yuratakuya/g...prius02-04.jpg

Now that I see them again, this would be a tough mod, I think...

aerohead 12-09-2008 04:49 PM

Moonies
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by NeilBlanchard (Post 77037)
Hi,

I'm hoping that someone on the forum has seen/used the MoonCraft covers made for the Prius, that have a single hole in the center. This would seem to allow air flow out (to help cool brakes a bit?) and not add anything appreciable to the drag. I'm holding out the possibility that this could be a good modification for summer driving.

http://www.autofiends.com/wp-content.../mooncraft.jpg
http://www.mooncraft.jp/yuratakuya/g...prius02-04.jpg

Now that I see them again, this would be a tough mod, I think...

Renault used such a wheelcover for it's Vesta-II Cd0.19,146-mpg concept car.They'd be worth waiting for as they're just a great real world compromise between ideals and utility.Get 'em if you can!

metromizer 12-09-2008 06:28 PM

I realized a 1-2 mpg improvement using snap-on stainless steel moon caps on my Metro (85% feeway speeds driving). I lost one on the first day, the second one about a week later. I bought replacements and bent the little gripper tabs so they would be a little tighter and hopefully not fall off again. That was a month ago (about 3k miles) so far, so good.

Speaking of theft, I put a set of the screw-on aluminum ones on a car back in 1983 or so. I wasn't satified with the supplied sheet metal screws, it looked to easy for someone to steel them as anyone with a bladed screwdriver could have them removed in minutes. I drilled and tapped the lip of the steel rims for #10-32 machine thread, and used button head allen screws.

They only lasted a day...

mobilerik 12-09-2008 06:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tango Charlie (Post 74522)
I can't speak to Insight wheels, but as far as moonies go, some guys have used pizza pans as dirt-cheap alternatives.

While absurdly cheap, my pizza caps are also a bit... cheap. :-) I'm wondering if they can be polished to look like I paid more than $4 for them. Anyone?

They're steel btw, not aluminum as I presumed. And I don't worry about them being stolen. :D

Everyone sing: "When the moon hits your eye, like a big pizza pie... "

Ryland 12-09-2008 07:13 PM

why isn't anyone making a plastic moon cap that is avalible? they would be lighter and cheaper to make.

Piwoslaw 12-10-2008 03:22 AM

I'm planning on homebrewing plastic moonies. I'll post a how-to if I have any luck.

Christ 12-10-2008 04:54 AM

Hm.. Mooncraft is the counterpart to Mugen, a Honda-option parts mfg... that's funny, although I seriously doubt they're the same company.

As far as real input here, is there any benefit to having domed caps as opposed to flat caps on your wheels? Like helping to re-direct some of the detached airflow from the nose- area of the car and help reattach it to the side?

Obviously, they create a larger frontal area, but I wonder if it's enough to negate any (if any) positive effect they may have?

NeilBlanchard 12-10-2008 05:03 AM

Hi,

I've wondered the same thing -- my best guess is that anything that sticks out beyond the tire sidewall is probably less helpful, so, flat(ter) is better.

Christ 12-10-2008 05:20 AM

I wonder primarily for the case where the tires don't come out to the outer edges of the car (most OEM configs) and there is no stippling or any kind of aero-modding to the rear of the wheel opening to lessen it's effect on the (now-separated) airflow.

Obviously, if domed isn't any better, just making them wide enough to meet the outer edge of the vehicle must be, as this would mimic the obvious benefits of fender skirting without the obvious problems associated with skirting the front wheel openings.

Essentially -
Less open area = less airflow disruption
Less depth between surfaces = less airflow detachment.

A+B=C, so less airflow disruption + less airflow detachment = smoother flow?

Just a thought, at 0519hrs, after being sick for 3 days and not sleeping the last 23 hours or so.... maybe I'm legally insane at this point.

guudasitgets 12-10-2008 09:16 AM

FYI; moon disks are $30 each for 13 inch wheels


https://www.mooneyesusa.com/Store/pr...fe85b25d1e8e15

1337 12-11-2008 02:47 PM

CRX Si 4 Hole Wheels?
 
I've been calling junkyards, and all of them seem to want over $200 (shipped) for a set of Insight wheels. Now I'm thinking of buying '80s CRX Si 14" alloys (the ones with 4 big holes). The wheels are flat, and the holes look easy to cover to make a flat disc.

This is the wheel i have in mind:

http://dgbrown.pixesthesia.com/cars/...20CRX%20Si.jpg

Opinions?

Anyone know the weight on these?

aerohead 12-11-2008 03:15 PM

benefit
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Christ (Post 77609)
Hm.. Mooncraft is the counterpart to Mugen, a Honda-option parts mfg... that's funny, although I seriously doubt they're the same company.

As far as real input here, is there any benefit to having domed caps as opposed to flat caps on your wheels? Like helping to re-direct some of the detached airflow from the nose- area of the car and help reattach it to the side?

Obviously, they create a larger frontal area, but I wonder if it's enough to negate any (if any) positive effect they may have?

Moon wheel covers do aggravate frontal area,however provide the highest sectional density,compensating for the tire"bump" eruption,and overall,they offer the lowest drag for a open wheel in free stream,producing the profile of a "Streamlined Wheel"used in aviation,@ Cd0.12 (from Hoerner,Fig.8.13,Page 128.Better even if faired!

1337 12-11-2008 03:37 PM

http://dgbrown.pixesthesia.com/cars/...20CRX%20Si.jpg

Sorry, I botched the link.

aerohead 12-11-2008 04:09 PM

CRX wheels
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by 1337 (Post 77903)
I've been calling junkyards, and all of them seem to want over $200 (shipped) for a set of Insight wheels. Now I'm thinking of buying '80s CRX Si 14" alloys (the ones with 4 big holes). The wheels are flat, and the holes look easy to cover to make a flat disc.

This is the wheel i have in mind:

http://dgbrown.pixesthesia.com/cars/...20CRX%20Si.jpg

Opinions?

Anyone know the weight on these?

I have these on my '84 CRX.I got them to run the Michelin MXV Green-X LRR tires.I may have a weight for them.It cost me $1,000 for the wheels and tires and absolutely no benefit to mpg.Bummer!-------PS Honda changed their C-to_C bolt pattern in the next gen vehicles.Is that the same fit as your Protege?

1337 12-11-2008 04:28 PM

aerohead,

Can you explain what you mean by C- and _C bolt patterns? I thought that just about any 4x100 bolt pattern wheel with a high offset would fit on a '90s Protege, Civic, Corolla, etc.

As far as benefits, I'm not out much money if I don't see an FE gain. I found a junkyard that will ship me a set of '86 CRX Si wheels for $150, and I would just transfer my Michelin Harmony tires to the CRX wheels.

I also like the looks of the gen1 CRX Si wheels (sure beats my black steelies)...

aerohead 12-11-2008 04:36 PM

C-to-C
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by 1337 (Post 77930)
aerohead,

Can you explain what you mean by C- and _C bolt patterns? I thought that just about any 4x100 bolt pattern wheel with a high offset would fit on a '90s Protege, Civic, Corolla, etc.

As far as benefits, I'm not out much money if I don't see an FE gain. I found a junkyard that will ship me a set of '86 CRX Si wheels for $150, and I would just transfer my Michelin Harmony tires to the CRX wheels.

I also like the looks of the gen1 CRX Si wheels (sure beats my black steelies)...

I was thinking that they still measure the bolt pattern from center of one hole,across to the opposite hole.That may not be valid anymore.I was interested in a later model HONDA wheel and the parts guys said they wouldn't fit my car,as HONDA had subsequently changed their bolt pattern.-----$150 is a great price if they'll fit! I'll see if I can find that weight.

1337 12-11-2008 04:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aerohead (Post 77932)
I was thinking that they still measure the bolt pattern from center of one hole,across to the opposite hole.That may not be valid anymore.I was interested in a later model HONDA wheel and the parts guys said they wouldn't fit my car,as HONDA had subsequently changed their bolt pattern.-----$150 is a great price if they'll fit! I'll see if I can find that weight.

I'm pretty darn sure the lug sizing measurement scheme hasn't changed.

The only thing besides offset that could prevent a 4x100 wheel from fitting on any 4x100 hub is center bore. Center bore is the hole in the middle of the wheel that allows the hub to sit slightly inside the wheel. It looks like the CRX's center bore is 56.1mm, while the Protege's center bore is 54.1.

Mazda - Vehicle Bolt Pattern Reference

Honda - Vehicle Bolt Pattern Reference

Since the Honda bore is slightly bigger, the Honda wheel should fit over the smaller Mazda hub. However, I would be more hesitant to try squeezing Mazda wheels over Honda hubs.

I haven't found any information about Honda changing bolt patterns in the '90s, though they did go to a 5-lug pattern for the current generation Civic.

some_other_dave 12-12-2008 12:46 PM

IIRC, most stock Honda alloy wheels are relatively heavy. Lighter than steel wheels, but not nearly as light as a lot of the aftermarket alloys.

-soD

Christ 12-12-2008 01:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by some_other_dave (Post 78074)
IIRC, most stock Honda alloy wheels are relatively heavy. Lighter than steel wheels, but not nearly as light as a lot of the aftermarket alloys.

-soD

I don't think that's true at all, since '85 Si 13" wheels are ~9-10lbs w/o a tire on them, '86 Si 14" wheels are closer to 13lbs w/o a tire, and even most of the mid90's wheels are still lighter than their steel counterparts.

I own both sets.

In fact, I have the 14" Phone Dials (nickname) or "Buttons" on my 4th gen Civic.

PS. Bolt patterns have been measured center to center across the widest point since engineers determined this the most accurate way to measure anything.

As long as the offset is at least 38mm, and the wheel/tire isn't more than a standard width, it will fit on a Honda hub.

In a few seconds, I can get the weights of some pretty common Honda/Acura wheels.

Correction:
OEM steel wheels on 88-91 Civics are 13x5J and weigh 16#
86-87 Alloy wheels are 14x5J, cast wheels, and weigh 15.4#
Honda Civic HX 96-97 wheels are cast alloy, 14x5.5J and weigh 11.8#
Civic VX 13x5J cast alloy, weight 9.7#

Still waiting for weight on '85 Si 13x5J.

metromizer 12-12-2008 05:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Christ (Post 77609)
is there any benefit to having domed caps as opposed to flat caps on your wheels?

My metro needs something domed for mechanical clearence, like most fwd cars I suspect. But the design has been around since what, WWII or earlier? RWD cars don't usually need any center clearence. It certainly is a lot more trouble to 'spin form' manufacture them in a metal spinning lathe, than to just use flat metal. <metal spinning a metal working art that is all but gone>

I agree, there must be some other reason

1337 12-12-2008 11:47 PM

Update
 
Hey, I kinda gave up on the flat wheels idea for now; I couldn't get a decent set of CRX Si wheels at a decent price either.

Today, I ordered a set of '93 Protege 14x5.5" alloys (not very aerodynamic, but hopefully somewhat light) from a junkyard for $100 shipped. I'll weigh one before I mount tires, so we'll have one more entry in our knowledge base of wheel weights.

This is ironic--the last person to discuss Insight wheels on the ecomodder forum gave up and bought Honda Fit alloys.

Christ 12-13-2008 12:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1337 (Post 78174)
Hey, I kinda gave up on the flat wheels idea for now; I couldn't get a decent set of CRX Si wheels at a decent price either.

Today, I ordered a set of '93 Protege 14x5.5" alloys (not very aerodynamic, but hopefully somewhat light) from a junkyard for $100 shipped. I'll weigh one before I mount tires, so we'll have one more entry in our knowledge base of wheel weights.

This is ironic--the last person to discuss Insight wheels on the ecomodder forum gave up and bought Honda Fit alloys.

Check redpepperracing.com it's nothing but 1st gen CR-X's, and people give those wheels away, because they're ugly as sh!t. Not to mention heavy, compared to the wheels most of us would rather have, and even for the better looking Honda wheels, they're the same weight, or close to it. (Hammers and Fat Fives are 15-16#, and they're 15" rims.... better performance sizes.)

Christ 12-13-2008 12:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aerohead (Post 77932)
I was thinking that they still measure the bolt pattern from center of one hole,across to the opposite hole.That may not be valid anymore.I was interested in a later model HONDA wheel and the parts guys said they wouldn't fit my car,as HONDA had subsequently changed their bolt pattern.-----$150 is a great price if they'll fit! I'll see if I can find that weight.

Nah, just about any Honda 4-lug wheel fits your car. The 84-00 Civic uses a 4x100, so does the early accord, and prelude up to 92. The Insight, and several other models also use the pattern, and most Acura Integras also share it, as well as some other Acura models.

Escorts/Tracers from 92 up also use it (any escort from that generation up) but the centers need milled to fit Honda hubs, as they're about 3mm too small.

blahblahblah etcetcetc... Honda didn't change the bolt pattern on their Civic line until like the 8th generation.

Like I said, I have '86 CR-X Si wheels on my '89 (next generation) sedan.

aerohead 12-13-2008 02:16 PM

fit
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Christ (Post 78182)
Nah, just about any Honda 4-lug wheel fits your car. The 84-00 Civic uses a 4x100, so does the early accord, and prelude up to 92. The Insight, and several other models also use the pattern, and most Acura Integras also share it, as well as some other Acura models.

Escorts/Tracers from 92 up also use it (any escort from that generation up) but the centers need milled to fit Honda hubs, as they're about 3mm too small.

blahblahblah etcetcetc... Honda didn't change the bolt pattern on their Civic line until like the 8th generation.

Like I said, I have '86 CR-X Si wheels on my '89 (next generation) sedan.

Thanks mucho for the info! It's funny that I was told misinformation and never bothered to check it out.Maybe after my $1,000 disappointment my brain shut down.

1337 12-13-2008 03:42 PM

Christ-

Yeah, 4x100 is a very common lug pattern for '80s and '90s small cars. 4x100 wheels are mostly interchangeable, though you have to watch out for offsets and center bores.

'90s Proteges and Escorts all use 4x100 and 54.1mm center bores. Not surprising, since they share lots of suspension components. Civics and other 4x100 Hondas have a 56.1mm center bore.

Try this if you're looking for bolt pattern, offset, and center bore info:
Vehicle Bolt Pattern Reference

So, the Honda wheels with a slightly larger center bore will fit over the Mazda hub. However, the Mazda wheels may not fit over the Honda hub without a bit of machine shop work.

Even so, I'm playing this one safe by installing wheels off of an other 4x100 Mazda.

1337 12-13-2008 03:45 PM

Aerohead -

Yeah, you can snag a decent set of 4x100 14-15" alloys from a junkyard for $100-200, shipped. If you get picky and want Insight or Civic VX wheels, you might pay a bit more. Or, if you're really lucky, you might find what you're looking for at junkyard or with an ebay seller who is located in your area, so you don't have to pay shipping.

Christ 12-13-2008 09:04 PM

Sometimes, it's easier to just go to a dealer to get them. Lots of times, people want 4-500 for HX wheels... and you can get them from a dealer at times for $80 each, brand new.

It's the same thing for buying gaskets and such for Hondas.. its' almost always cheaper to get most of your parts from the dealer.

Aero - How much of that $1000 is the tires vs the wheels? I know LRR's are expensive, but you shouldn't have paid more than about $50 each for those wheels, and that's even a premium for them.

I asked $300 a few years ago for a NIB set of them, and I got scoffed at until I found someone that was doing a period correct restoration of an '86 CR-X Si.

Sometimes it pays to sit and wait.

gascort 12-13-2008 10:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryland (Post 77519)
why isn't anyone making a plastic moon cap that is avalible? they would be lighter and cheaper to make.

How about using those round, partial - sphere plastic sleds? Would be cheap - just go to a sledding hill and pick them off unsuspecting younglings... :thumbup::eek:

Christ 12-14-2008 12:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gascort (Post 78327)
How about using those round, partial - sphere plastic sleds? Would be cheap - just go to a sledding hill and pick them off unsuspecting younglings... :thumbup::eek:

Um... those things are like 22" diameter or bigger sometimes... that would be a LOT of wasted trimmings. You'd have small pieces that you could use for grille blocks and such though, and the plastic itself is quite flexible, and could be used for aero mods, like fairing in your mirrors and such, where it wouldn't be completely hideous. Plus, it's paintable.

Christ 12-14-2008 12:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Christ (Post 78341)
Um... those things are like 22" diameter or bigger sometimes... that would be a LOT of wasted trimmings. You'd have small pieces that you could use for grille blocks and such though, and the plastic itself is quite flexible, and could be used for aero mods, like fairing in your mirrors and such, where it wouldn't be completely hideous. Plus, it's paintable.

You'd also have to find a way to form them or adhere them to something that would actually hold to the wheel, or just semi-permanently adhere them to the wheel on their own. (small screws could be tapped into the "lip" of the rim every 4-5 inches or so around the rim to hold the plastic on.) This would make it a complete PITA to change rims/tires quickly though.


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