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jpgmtech 04-23-2008 11:34 PM

Most excellent forum!
 
Hey everyone. I'm a closet ecomodder, with a big diesel truck and a v8 car... But i've finally found a forum I can get excited about!:D

I had a 1988 chev sprint with a engine-off-coast switch rigged up and a few other little tweaks a couple of years ago. I didn't even know sites like this existed! It was rusting and I could sell it for what I got for it so I did. I regret that completely, would like to get another for more modding.

Best mileage with my diesel pickup has been 9.8 litres/100kms with custom ECM programming. That's with 7000lbs of brick-in-the wind to push around...

Awesome ideas here!

BTW, a significant portion of the gains on the coming new GM hybrids come from low-rolling resistance tires, aero mods, and other things that you guys are already doing....

DifferentPointofView 04-23-2008 11:41 PM

NIiiice, welcome to the site! how'd you retune the ECM?

MetroMPG 04-23-2008 11:44 PM

Nice to have another experienced modder join up.

I'm assuming you're either Canadian or a science type, with your L/100 km notation for your truck.

9.8 L/100 km is pretty good for such a beast (that's 24 mpg US for those of you not familiar with the superior metric fuel economy measurement :)).

So, are you actively shopping for another Suzukiclone / ecomodding platform?

DifferentPointofView 04-23-2008 11:50 PM

I know I am, but I haven't found one :( whoever said that finding geo's is easy can kiss my rear end, because anywhere I look I can't find one. I my friend has one, but that's because his dad's had it for years and gave it to him, and he ain't selling it. You guys must have better luck than me :(

jpgmtech 04-23-2008 11:56 PM

Tuned with ECM tuning software/hardware. I am an experienced GM tech and a tuner. Unfortunately there is nothing much for the Nippondenso ECM's that run the Suzuki product... There are a huge number of very interesting parameters that can be tuned, from ECT vs open loop fuel ratio tables (which are pig rich from factory typically) to the huge range of spark control and compensation tables. I have seen as much as 15% gains from spark timing adjustments alone (that comes with a trade-off, usually increased NOx emissions)

My best with the electronic carbed chevy sprint was 3.9 l/100 kms. I am a canadian :p

And I would prefer another suzuki product (the chev/pontiac/geo variety). My main concern is parts availability. I work at a GM dealership so that gives me an inside line on parts ;

jpgmtech 04-23-2008 11:59 PM

So i guess that makes my 2005 Chev K2500 4WD tuner truck more efficient than DPOV's Jeep SUV? Note that my truck is much heavier and larger... lol.:p

Just wait 'til i do some trans tuning...

cfg83 04-24-2008 03:07 AM

jpgmtech -

Quote:

Originally Posted by jpgmtech (Post 21231)
Tuned with ECM tuning software/hardware. I am an experienced GM tech and a tuner. Unfortunately there is nothing much for the Nippondenso ECM's that run the Suzuki product... There are a huge number of very interesting parameters that can be tuned, from ECT vs open loop fuel ratio tables (which are pig rich from factory typically) to the huge range of spark control and compensation tables. I have seen as much as 15% gains from spark timing adjustments alone (that comes with a trade-off, usually increased NOx emissions)

My best with the electronic carbed chevy sprint was 3.9 l/100 kms. I am a canadian :p

And I would prefer another suzuki product (the chev/pontiac/geo variety). My main concern is parts availability. I work at a GM dealership so that gives me an inside line on parts ;

Welcome to EM! It's nice to have a GM tech on board. You are under the hood *and* inside the chip!

There is no escape!

CarloSW2

MetroMPG 04-24-2008 06:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jpgmtech (Post 21231)
...usually increased NOx emissions

I'll admit I'm often tempted by the idea of tuning for a leaner burn in particular, but I just don't think it's worth it.

Southern Ontario already had its first smog alert of the year last weekend. I was in Toronto at the time and I don't want to contribute to the brown tinted skyline I saw.

Daox 04-24-2008 09:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MetroMPG (Post 21283)
I'll admit I'm often tempted by the idea of tuning for a leaner burn in particular, but I just don't think it's worth it.

Southern Ontario already had its first smog alert of the year last weekend. I was in Toronto at the time and I don't want to contribute to the brown tinted skyline I saw.

Same here. I have a zeitronix wideband zt-2 system on the Matrix and it would take nothing to lean it out and get 40 mpg all day with the wife driving. However, with all I have learned about emissions its really not worth it.

Welcome to the site.

jpgmtech 04-24-2008 09:57 AM

Most OBDII controllers will not let a lean burn happen (unless you happen to live in Australia) the only way you could "fool" the computer into a lean burn is by modifying the pre-cat o2 sensor signals so that the computer would "see" a higher voltage and presume it is slightly rich, causing it to correct fuel trims.

The big device to keep happy is the 3-way catalytic convertor. Even is spark timing is causing a little more NOx than typical, the cat will usually take care of it. But if the mixture moves off of stoich, the cat efficiency drops dramatically and then it can't be your "savior" for a little aggressive spark tuning...

On cold-starts you would not believe how much fuel is thrown down the tailpipe and the timing retard induced just to feed the cat and get it lighting off... I usually fudge those tables a little to improve cold-start fuel economy. As long as the car doesn't idle alot the cat will light off with engine load.

jpgmtech 04-24-2008 10:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daox (Post 21296)
Same here. I have a zeitronix wideband zt-2 system on the Matrix and it would take nothing to lean it out and get 40 mpg all day with the wife driving. However, with all I have learned about emissions its really not worth it.

Welcome to the site.

Thanks!

BTW, in my opinion (haven't done the research to gather the data to back this up) the major contributor to smog (NOx, particulates) is the diesel engine. They have started to clean up in trucks since mid-2004, but think of all of the pre-2004 diesels out there! They were not even required to have a PCV, no TWC (three-way cat), no EGR, just raw particulates, NOx and HC's being thrown out the tailpipe! And usually in huge quantities as they are mostly large engines...

However diesels are getting much better with 2007.5 requirements, and we can look forward to more improvements 2010.

Suffice to say that a modern OBDII gasoline engine is far far cleaner than the worst emissions offenders.

MetroMPG 04-24-2008 10:53 AM

Sounds like you've got a good depth of knowledge. Glad you decided to sign up. Out of curiousity, what led you here?

jpgmtech 04-24-2008 12:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MetroMPG (Post 21310)
Sounds like you've got a good depth of knowledge. Glad you decided to sign up. Out of curiousity, what led you here?

It's a long story... I've always had a thing for fuel economy and tweaking, been a closet hobby of mine. I live right in the smack of the hummer/diesel truck/suv land in the oilfields of alberta, so my business generally involves the worst consuming vehicles out there. I got into ECM tuning and that opened up a new avenue of tweaking.

What led me here: I let a computer geek buddy of mine know about my exploits with the chevy sprint. He decided to do some research and found several websites like this one and let me know about it. I didn't come back to it until I was doing research for an article I am writing for a magazine about fuel economy (for diesel powered trucks of all things... see previous post...) That tweaked my memory and I started googling. Honestly, seeing the Geo Metro's and that radical aero Honda Civic complete with wires and equipment all over the dash got me hooked on this site!:cool: It's actually exciting to see that there are others out there who have minds that work like mine!

I'll tell you about my future project (if it works out) when I have more time...:thumbup:

At some point I'll do a writeup on the new GM Hybrids too... I've just finished some training on them.

SVOboy 04-24-2008 12:13 PM

Thanks for hanging out with us, I'm really excited to see what you have to say about the GM Hybrids, :)

cfg83 04-24-2008 03:14 PM

jpgmtech -

Quote:

Originally Posted by jpgmtech (Post 21304)
Thanks!

BTW, in my opinion (haven't done the research to gather the data to back this up) the major contributor to smog (NOx, particulates) is the diesel engine. They have started to clean up in trucks since mid-2004, but think of all of the pre-2004 diesels out there! They were not even required to have a PCV, no TWC (three-way cat), no EGR, just raw particulates, NOx and HC's being thrown out the tailpipe! And usually in huge quantities as they are mostly large engines...

However diesels are getting much better with 2007.5 requirements, and we can look forward to more improvements 2010.

Suffice to say that a modern OBDII gasoline engine is far far cleaner than the worst emissions offenders.

My hope is to be able to piggy-back on this technology and get my hands on an affordable NOx sensor that is intended for diesels. In the event that I do an engine mod that effects the 02 sensor, I can monitor my normal gasser for NOx compliance.

CarloSW2

cfg83 04-24-2008 03:17 PM

jpgmtech -

Quote:

Originally Posted by jpgmtech (Post 21324)
...

I'll tell you about my future project (if it works out) when I have more time...:thumbup:

At some point I'll do a writeup on the new GM Hybrids too... I've just finished some training on them.

I already have a question about the first GM hybrids. Could the Saturn-Vue "mild hybrid" drivetrain be transferred into a Saturn Ion? I ask because I think they had the same generation of 2.X Ecotec engine. This is a "just for fun" question. I don't have the mechanical skillzzz to do it.

CarloSW2

jpgmtech 04-24-2008 04:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cfg83 (Post 21347)
jpgmtech -



I already have a question about the first GM hybrids. Could the Saturn-Vue "mild hybrid" drivetrain be transferred into a Saturn Ion? I ask because I think they had the same generation of 2.X Ecotec engine. This is a "just for fun" question. I don't have the mechanical skillzzz to do it.

CarloSW2

Possible, but difficult to say the least. Easier to just go out and buy a Saturn Aura hybrid though, 2.2 ecotec with more or less the same mild hybrid hardware. Chevy Malibu hybrid also uses this system.

The total claimed city economy benefit is 12% over the non-hybrid Aura/Malibu. But only about 5% of the gains actually come from the hybrid portion. Most of the gains are from fuel-economy tuning in the ECM and low rolling resistance tires. I'll post a table from my training info later...

By far the best gaining hybrid and most useful that GM produces is the two-mode system in the Hybrid Tahoe/Yukon. Lots of technology there, wished they got this into the small cars though. The Malibu hybrid is almost a waste of money...

Daox 04-24-2008 04:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jpgmtech (Post 21304)
BTW, in my opinion (haven't done the research to gather the data to back this up) the major contributor to smog (NOx, particulates) is the diesel engine. They have started to clean up in trucks since mid-2004, but think of all of the pre-2004 diesels out there! They were not even required to have a PCV, no TWC (three-way cat), no EGR, just raw particulates, NOx and HC's being thrown out the tailpipe! And usually in huge quantities as they are mostly large engines...

However diesels are getting much better with 2007.5 requirements, and we can look forward to more improvements 2010.

Suffice to say that a modern OBDII gasoline engine is far far cleaner than the worst emissions offenders.

You are quite right that diesels are a much larger polluter of NOx when compared to gasoline engines. I just still see the effects of NOx as horrible. At the very least I would go have a 5 gas analysis done to make sure my NOx emissions weren't too out of check. I'd be happy increasing FE by 10% if NOx goes 10%, but not if NOx increased faster than FE.

I look forward to the GM hybrid review and the break down of the FE per alteration.

jpgmtech 04-24-2008 04:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daox (Post 21360)
You are quite right that diesels are a much larger polluter of NOx when compared to gasoline engines. I just still see the effects of NOx as horrible. At the very least I would go have a 5 gas analysis done to make sure my NOx emissions weren't too out of check. I'd be happy increasing FE by 10% if NOx goes 10%, but not if NOx increased faster than FE.

I agree. There is a saturation point where the reducing cat cannot help anymore, and that depends on the size of the cat and the vehicle. A 5-gas analyzer and a dyno is the best way to determine this.

Unfortunately GM has deleted the EGR valve off of several vehicles, using other means to control NOx. This is ok, but they have also killed a little bit of spark timing to hedge in the emissions requirements, which kills a bit of economy. If they kept the EGR valve, the other improvements would have made it possible to maximize the efficiency of the engine... strange decisions they make, while claiming to improve fuel economy! But then it looks like they were trying to save some money somewhere. :( Ok, enough ranting...

BTW for all those wanting to know what NOx is: Nitrogen Oxides in it's various forms that are a particularly nasty pollutant responsible for acid rain and such.

DifferentPointofView 04-24-2008 11:07 PM

Quote:

So i guess that makes my 2005 Chev K2500 4WD tuner truck more efficient than DPOV's Jeep SUV? Note that my truck is much heavier and larger... lol.:p
Also remember your running a diesel :p Oh, and the reason I'm averaging 21 is because of a muddy fun trip I put into my fuel log :D I'd be averaging 22's if it weren't for it. Lately it's been 23-24.

jpgmtech 04-25-2008 10:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DifferentPointofView (Post 21406)
Also remember your running a diesel :p Oh, and the reason I'm averaging 21 is because of a muddy fun trip I put into my fuel log :D I'd be averaging 22's if it weren't for it. Lately it's been 23-24.

Hey that's actually quite good considering! I just had to get that Jeep dig in there, lol!:D

The number I quoted was best-case on a highway trip. My mileage display was actually showing better than that, calculating verified the 9.8. Commuting with a big diesel eats major fuel. I'm still working with the De-fuel modes to try and get it better. When the weather warms up it should help a bit to. I'm going to start using the log here after my next fuel-up. But most of my winter commuting tanks (I will be riding a bicycle when the snow and ice go away around here) are around the 15 to 20 litres/100kms mark. The whole truck was totally geared for loads and towing performance, with almost no thought given to fuel economy. On the plus side, the Duramax engine is (from what I am told by engineers) the most efficient engine (per specific output) that GM has produced.

DifferentPointofView 04-26-2008 01:25 PM

Ever think about trying to make your own bio-diesel? diesel prices are off the walls right now.

jpgmtech 04-26-2008 01:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DifferentPointofView (Post 21711)
Ever think about trying to make your own bio-diesel? diesel prices are off the walls right now.

Yep. I've done considerable research on it. I don't have the time or tools at this point to get that started. But I should note here that a common-rail diesel (GM Duramax, VW TDI) is not a very good candidate for homebrews. They are very very sensitive to fuel quality! If a person was to run biodiesel in these, they need to really be careful about how they brewed the fuel.

Achtung 04-26-2008 10:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jpgmtech (Post 21324)
I live right in the smack of the hummer/diesel truck/suv land in the oilfields of alberta, so my business generally involves the worst consuming vehicles out there.

You're right about that...

Nice to see another Albertan here! I also have a truck, just a gas half ton though. Like Metro said, its good to have someone with your training. My head's already spinning a bit after reading through this thread...

Quote:

Originally Posted by jpgmtech (Post 21324)
I'll tell you about my future project (if it works out) when I have more time...:thumbup:

At some point I'll do a writeup on the new GM Hybrids too... I've just finished some training on them.

Looking forward to hearing about your projects and reading your writeups!

jpgmtech 04-27-2008 12:38 AM

Thanks! I'll probably be leaning toward truck stuff here for the next little while. Just bought a new bicycle for going back and forth to work with though. The D-max will burn a little less fuel sitting at home...

Just did an interesting little test today in amongst other tuning details on my truck. Found out that slower is ALWAYS better with the truck. If I can stay in top gear and go 80kms/hr, that yields the best mileage... It just drops off at any speeds higher than that. I have a spreadsheet I may post later. Aerodynamics on these things doesn't exist!

MetroMPG 04-27-2008 12:39 PM

jpgmtech: simple question for a diesel person:

Since your truck motor doesn't suffer part-throttle losses like gas engines, does that mean that, unlike gassers, the most efficient rate of acceleration is super slow granny style?

Or is it another case of, "it depends"?

I have precious little experience with diesels. Can count on one hand the number of hours I've spent driving them.

tasdrouille 04-27-2008 01:36 PM

Darin, I have had VW diesels ever since I got my license in 96, and was not able to attain higher FE by feathering the go pedal when accelerating. That's only my experience though. Whatever the engine I go with the BSFC maps when I can find them...

MetroMPG 04-27-2008 03:55 PM

Thanks, tasdrouille. I should head over to the BSFC thread and see if there are any diesel maps. I don't think I've seen one before.

jpgmtech 04-27-2008 06:28 PM

BSFC is an interesting thing with modern common-rail diesels. My theory is best FE for accelleration is right on peak torque (for any engine). That is when the fuel rate is doing it's greatest work.

If a person could have a CVT style transmission and have the diesel run at peak torque for accel, that would be optimum. Of course, on a diesel, peak torque is very low in the powerband. That would be one reason why granny acceleration wourd return better real world results.

For steady-state cruising in a diesel, the lower the fuel rate (throttle pedal in this case) the better. However that does not necessarily mean that lower engine RPM is always better, depends heavily on the gearing of the trans and final drive.


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