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Wantingtomod 02-02-2010 01:24 PM

multiple alternator use
 
1 Attachment(s)
i was wondering is any of you could answer this question.
if put in the vehicle or in a tow along. couldn't you just recharge or keep the battery/s charged using simple alternators like a standard car does now?
i.e
a alternator for each battery and the alternator/s r powered by a separate motor(just 1 motor to power all (gas, diesel,or electric))
i search the internet and the forum but no one ever talks about using more than 1 to just keep charged individual battery's .
the standard voltage regulators would prevent over charge...so i would think they would or could just run at a standard speed with no problem and keep batteries charged. :confused:

shovel 02-02-2010 01:34 PM

Are you talking about keeping 2 charging systems separated so that 2 separate batteries can be used independently of each other? Several companies make solid state isolators for that, way simpler than using multiple alternators in an already cramped engine compartment High Performance 90-amp Battery Isolator | Overstock.com

Wantingtomod 02-02-2010 01:52 PM

1 Attachment(s)
yes that is similar to what I'm talking about. and that would even make less weight and load on secondary engine. also wouldnt using that keep you charged allowing higher mileage and would only limit you to the fuel running out(in the secondary engine) and then eventually killing the power pack.

moonmonkey 02-02-2010 09:30 PM

in what kind of car or set up are you talking about ,an electric? a hybrid?

Wantingtomod 02-02-2010 09:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by moonmonkey (Post 158614)
in what kind of car or set up are you talking about ,an electric? a hybrid?

in a all electric car in thought...the 2nd engine mentioned is 2 be just a power source to power the alternators ... i.e. (a second electric source ...in my thoughts)

RobertSmalls 02-02-2010 09:52 PM

http://ecomodder.com/forum/attachmen...2&d=1265156108

This pic reminds me of a picture floating around the interwebs where some guy installed four * 140A alternators in his pickup, to power his radio. That's about 7.8KW of power, versus my 1.0L hybrid's 10KW onboard generator. Anyway, he could use his alternators for regenerative braking.

There's probably cheaper ways to achieve the same result, though.

moonmonkey 02-02-2010 10:05 PM

wanting to mod why not a generator powering a battery charger then?

Wantingtomod 02-02-2010 10:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RobertSmalls (Post 158630)
http://ecomodder.com/forum/attachmen...2&d=1265156108

This pic reminds me of a picture floating around the interwebs where some guy installed four * 140A alternators in his pickup, to power his radio. That's about 7.8KW of power, versus my 1.0L hybrid's 10KW onboard generator. Anyway, he could use his alternators for regenerative braking.

There's probably cheaper ways to achieve the same result, though.

lol i wish i found that pic on the web ...lol...i used paint to make...lol...just to make sure to show what i was taking about...lol...but anyway....i not talking about radio or stuff like that...just basic...battery recharge like a regular car does....not extra ...just basic...i'm not a expert mechanic or nothing...but...can u do the same with alternators vs your expensive 1.0L hybrid's 10KW onboard generator...im still learning about the the regen braking....but a regular car seems to always keep the battery charged....thats what im looking at...maybe im in the the wrong direction :confused:

Wantingtomod 02-02-2010 10:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by moonmonkey (Post 158638)
wanting to mod why not a generator powering a battery charger then?

im just trying to keep it to the basic (kis)...like a basic car...from what i read generators involve alot more electronic parts and more monitoring were as a simple alternator is good or bad and your battery/s can at least have a chance of not being ruined ...my experience has showed me in the past of a bad alternator or battery that at least 1 can be saved ...whereas a generator can over/under produce and cause lose of everything(i.e. a power surge in a house)...maybe i wrong ....:confused:

moonmonkey 02-02-2010 10:47 PM

the regen turns the motor into a generator during breaking, but it will absorb in the kilowatts of energy quickly! but the motor adds zero dead weight or drag because it also drives the wheels, if you are adding a bunch of alternators thats alot of weight and drag?
you will never come close to the effectiveness of the hybreds system, if you wanted to use the alternators to slowm you down by hitting a switch that would activate your feild windings that would present drag on a driveshaft and slow you down and also generate power, but i cant see it being a positive thing ( you'ed lose more than you would gain,if i understand what you are tring to do.

Wantingtomod 02-02-2010 11:27 PM

the power/energy going back during braking/coast i think i get :confused: ...that is a good thing rt...regen ...the alt's are meant to only keep the batteries powered properly like a regular car(gas)not to do anything else ...im sorry if i didn't explain it clearly...im still new to the green world

moonmonkey 02-02-2010 11:35 PM

if you are not using the alternators for regen then they would be a net loss for you, you get less energy out of any device,machine than you put into it. if you want to extend the range of an electric car by making electricity to recharge a battery, then a generator making electricity running a battery charger would not over charge anything ,the battery charger would regulate that. plus all the extra weight of alternators would be hard to justify and probably reduce your range.

shovel 02-02-2010 11:55 PM

My employer is MTX Audio, we have a pair of Escalades each with two of our Jackhammer woofers installed and 12+ kW of amplifier power driving them. The older Escalade has six, 400A Powermaster alternators installed in it like this:

http://www.mtxaudio.eu/IMG/jpg/IMG15.jpg

But that's a show vehicle, designed to exhibit a product... efficiency is irrelevant (though the 22" Jackhammer is an efficient sub at 97dB@1W/1m)

I think overall using an engine to run 12v alternators to charge individual 12v cells in a higher voltage traction battery isn't going to be anywhere close to efficient.

Wantingtomod 02-03-2010 12:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by moonmonkey (Post 158672)
if you are not using the alternators for regen then they would be a net loss for you, you get less energy out of any device,machine than you put into it. if you want to extend the range of an electric car by making electricity to recharge a battery, then a generator making electricity running a battery charger would not over charge anything ,the battery charger would regulate that. plus all the extra weight of alternators would be hard to justify and probably reduce your range.

ok im at a lose.....i worded wrong or im just not getting this..lol....the alts are for power to batt's only ... if the batt's don't have constant charge they drain rt? the alts r to keep the batteries charged...i.e. the pic....just on a hypothesis ...this seems as a simple remedy for power lose(due to battery power drain).... the weight would seem to matter in my thinking ...because each vehicle type can range from 100-/+ to 1000-/+ USING THE SAME MOTOR (ELECTRIC :D ) in general weight ...not the motor of course...lol (weight )....but in general the system would work like a regular gas car .....welll the alternator part of it...keeping the battery charged

Wantingtomod 02-03-2010 12:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shovel (Post 158679)
My employer is MTX Audio, we have a pair of Escalades each with two of our Jackhammer woofers installed and 12+ kW of amplifier power driving them. The older Escalade has six, 400A Powermaster alternators installed in it like this:

http://www.mtxaudio.eu/IMG/jpg/IMG15.jpg

But that's a show vehicle, designed to exhibit a product... efficiency is irrelevant (though the 22" Jackhammer is an efficient sub at 97dB@1W/1m)

I think overall using an engine to run 12v alternators to charge individual 12v cells in a higher voltage traction battery isn't going to be anywhere close to efficient.

#1-- sweet ride
#2 im not trying to get my subs bumping and booming along with the tvs and Nintendo
#3 they consume alot more ....i need battery power
#4 efficient!!!! is not the issue(as in the main motor(the second motor is a different issue)..... its can it work ...
#5 now that i think about it...can that work in your system...with out having it using your main motor and having a separate system :turtle:?

RobertSmalls 02-03-2010 10:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shovel (Post 158679)
My employer is MTX Audio, we have a pair of Escalades each with two of our Jackhammer woofers installed and 12+ kW of amplifier power driving them. The older Escalade has six, 400A Powermaster alternators installed in it like this:

12kW at 13.8V is 870A. That's going to require some awfully large cables, terminals, and fuses. Why don't high-end audio systems go high-voltage? The same 12kW load at 120V is only 100A, a much more manageable current.

shovel 02-03-2010 12:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wantingtomod
#4 efficient!!!! is not the issue(as in the main motor(the second motor is a different issue)..... its can it work ...
#5 now that i think about it...can that work in your system...with out having it using your main motor and having a separate system ?

Efficient is not the issue? I guess then I don't understand what end result you are looking for. Are you trying to make a gasoline powered charger for an electric car? Efficient matters at both ends, doesn't it?

We could have a 2nd gasoline engine run the alternators, sure... or a thousand treadmills, or a windmill, the alternators don't care what is spinning them or where it's located...

If you are trying to charge a series bank of batteries by using multiple 12v alternators, I think you'll find that it won't work just as straightforward as that because all the alternators will want to have a common ground, which will short your series batteries.




Quote:

Originally Posted by RobertSmalls (Post 158715)
12kW at 13.8V is 870A. That's going to require some awfully large cables, terminals, and fuses.

Indeed, and we're more than happy to sell those too :thumbup:

Quote:

Originally Posted by RobertSmalls (Post 158715)
Why don't high-end audio systems go high-voltage? The same 12kW load at 120V is only 100A, a much more manageable current.

We do have several patents for 36v and 48v amplifiers, they're actually a lot easier to build because in a 12v amplifier rated higher than about 20 watts per channel it's necessary to build a DC-DC power supply that increases rail voltage to the output transistors... on a vehicle with 48v on tap you would just need noise filters to feed the rails straight off the power cable up to ~250 watts @ 4 ohms.

As it is, we have to manufacture what will actually sell to everyday people - 99.99% of whom drive 12v cars. It's a struggle to convince them that large amplifiers demand large power cables and often an alternator upgrade (what? you mean my stock 93 ford escort alternator doesn't have the reserve capacity for 2500 watts worth of amplifier?).. so, 12v is what it is.

Christ 02-03-2010 02:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RobertSmalls (Post 158715)
12kW at 13.8V is 870A. That's going to require some awfully large cables, terminals, and fuses. Why don't high-end audio systems go high-voltage? The same 12kW load at 120V is only 100A, a much more manageable current.

They're probably running them at 16V, granted it's not much of a change, though. Keep in mind, they've probably got several amplifiers daisy-chained, rather than one huge 12kW amp, so there's a good chance that there's a normal sized wire coming from each of the alternators to a bank of batteries, and normal wiring between the batteries going to each amplifier.

Keep in mind, by normal, I mean entrance cable. :)

Really, though, probably something between 4g alt wire and 0 or 0/0 for the battery cables and maybe 2g for the amp power supplies.

I can't imagine the heat generated in that setup...

shovel 02-03-2010 04:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Christ (Post 158776)
I can't imagine the heat generated in that setup...

Ha! yeah.. bit of heat.

Deviating from the original topic here, the complete rundown of the older Escalade's system as it's configured today:

Because we're a manufacturer and not competing in any SPL event or whatever, we run a 14.4v electrical system and our plug-in cascade power supplies are 15v.

four TE4001D amplifiers, one per 2 ohm voice coil on two JH9922 subwoofers. Each amplifier hand selected to produce within +-1% of each other, at 2660w rms @ 2 ohms (as a rule we underrate our amplifiers, TE series are underrated by 20-25% in general)
two TE1501D amplifiers running four T8510-44 10"subwoofers, each amp is seeing a 1 ohm load and producing appx. 1700W RMS

These switching amps are about 89% thermally efficient at maximum output so for their combined 14,000w RMS output they draw a little under 16,000 watts from the battery bank at full boogie and produce a little more heat than one of those little plug-in space heaters or a good hair dryer.

The balance of the sound system (the part which is not subwoofers) is class a/b type amplifiers, two TE1004 amps, each of whose 4 bridged total channels is seeing a 2 ohm load, which means they are able to deliver a continuous 1900 watts output but at only 58% efficient they draw about 3,300 watts from the electrical system and produce almost as much heat as all the subwoofer amps combined.

That makes just a hair over 19,000 watts total, continuous system power at 14.4 volts, or 1320 amp draw, ignoring the rest of the vehicle's power systems which all are present and operate as stock (even has AC still) Since each alternator is a 400A monster custom assembled by Powermaster, they are all operating below maximum capacity to produce that power, though the engine REALLY complains about the load when it's being run at a show that can't provide us with mains power.
Power is supplied from each alternator to the bank of storage batteries and capacitors by 00ga copper cable (both poles, that much current would melt the frame if we tried to use chassis ground to carry it) and 0ga from the battery bank to each of the amplifiers, through individual fuse blocks.

For the record I didn't build any of it, Jason Planck and Craig Marsh are the craftsmen responsible for system design/layout/construction.

To maintain some semblance of topic here, the take-home from this is yes you can run multiple alternators from an engine, and yes they can connect in parallel to a bank of batteries. You just can't connect batteries in both parallel and series at the same time, like to charge from 12v alternators and run a 48v (or whatever) electric motor.

You can, however, use a 12v system to run a massive audio amplifier, which technically would make a damn fine (and uncommonly handsome) high voltage speed controller...

Wantingtomod 02-04-2010 02:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shovel (Post 158738)
Efficient is not the issue? I guess then I don't understand what end result you are looking for. Are you trying to make a gasoline powered charger for an electric car? Efficient matters at both ends, doesn't it?

We could have a 2nd gasoline engine run the alternators, sure... or a thousand treadmills, or a windmill, the alternators don't care what is spinning them or where it's located...

If you are trying to charge a series bank of batteries by using multiple 12v alternators, I think you'll find that it won't work just as straightforward as that because all the alternators will want to have a common ground, which will short your series batteries.



Efficient is the issue....but not for the main engine(thats more than this thread can handle)

A gas car keeps a battery going a......





excuse me for my leap into the unknown :eek: but with a timed circuit of sort,cant you do what a car does with out shorting out the series ...' from my understanding the alternator keeps the battery at about 13+ volt' to keep it at proper level for longevity .... maybe im just beating a dead rock.....lol...(im not the brightest rock tossed into the pond....lol)...but with a circuit it seems like that would stop the problem of shorting.

i.e. ...
a home generator can accept multiple sources of power at once .....wind,sun,electric company and more...and it knows how to handle it....all in one process i believe...it just passes the correct energy to the work load or to the batteries (that are series wired i believe )and why car audio people dont have it yet i dont understand.car people from my dayz r alwys adding more batterries and alternatorsinstead of just putting in a 5 lb invertor,industy brushes and getting more than enuff power for the show off..not trying to side track :o but i know u can put a a regular sound system in a car and show off you sounds.....but in thought of using alternators......there has to be a way....for real world use.
dont get me wrong...please....but if u have a way to power your audio.....why not .....:( omy is the turning into a audio/video mod talk

Christ 02-04-2010 02:54 AM

Are you trying to use an electric motor to power a bunch of alternators?

I hope not...

If you're using a gas motor, sure, it can be done, but it won't really get you anywhere, other than using another engine to power your alternators, leaving your original engine free of that load.

Not sure why you'd want to do that, though.

If you're thinking about a way to use alternators at higher load (so they're more efficient), you can just do that with a kill switch on the alt field. No need for anything else to be done. When your battery gets down to about 65% charge, you charge it back up to 85% charge, then repeat.

Other than those things, I'm not entirely sure that even you know what you're trying to do, unless you're just really having a problem with getting the words out correctly so that we all understand it. I mean no offense, it just seems like you're not totally sure what you want here.

Wantingtomod 02-08-2010 08:52 AM

using the multiple alternators with a secondary source is a bad idea
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Christ (Post 158915)
Are you trying to use an electric motor to power a bunch of alternators?

I hope not...

If you're using a gas motor, sure, it can be done, but it won't really get you anywhere, other than using another engine to power your alternators, leaving your original engine free of that load.

Not sure why you'd want to do that, though.

If you're thinking about a way to use alternators at higher load (so they're more efficient), you can just do that with a kill switch on the alt field. No need for anything else to be done. When your battery gets down to about 65% charge, you charge it back up to 85% charge, then repeat.

Other than those things, I'm not entirely sure that even you know what you're trying to do, unless you're just really having a problem with getting the words out correctly so that we all understand it. I mean no offense, it just seems like you're not totally sure what you want here.

ok after thinking a couple days and reading some more....i finally took time to completely read stuff at battery university Welcome to Battery University they explain about all types of the batteries(i am quite sure u already know that stuff)...and now i got a better under standing how they work.. :( ...the using the multiple alternators with a secondary source is a bad ideal...from what got from it ...u better be a chemist or could just lose everything!!!!. battery maintenance is something we should due even in are gas guzzles.(i got that from just the basic batteries and recharging part)i never knew that,i just replaced it every 3 to 4 years or so.i thought it was just because it was a cheap used battery.

so without giving up hope ...


-maybe possible a timed battery pack switch to change out 2 or 3 batts when they get to a certain level like you mentioned b4
----could be bad because of extra weight...not efficient...
i think of the extra weight as most peoples average car weight.
---also if you gained or lose 20 lbs(personal body weight) this month and now your mileage is better or worse ...lol...something most don't add into there numbers...lol...weight is weight rt ?


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