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Old 05-11-2025, 07:39 PM   #591 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by deanznz View Post
Last year I looked into the health benefits of breathing hydrogen, and I kept bumping into Stan Myers stuff, and I came across someone ( Daniel Donatelli ) who has spent 20 years figuring out what Stan figured out.

Another guy was Bob Boyce, he raced a jet ski with hydrogen made on demand, one day his jet ski went a lot better than usual at a certain rpm, to the point that he removed the engine and set it up on a dyno to figure out why. It turned out the regulator on the alternator had failed and AC was getting into the Electrolyser/cell and helping split the H and O apart more efficiently. He ended up making a circuit that does it on purpose.

From memory, which ain't that good, there are various ways of getting the hydrogen out of water, the most common on youtube is what some call the brute force method, chewing through lots of amps to get the job done. Another way is to setup up what an electrical engineer might call run away circuit oscillation, but when used wisely the oscillation run through coils can produce 1000 times the input voltage returned in back EMF. I think Stan figured out quite a few ways to achieve it, to the point where if electrons are pulled out of water, then the bond between the H and O fall apart, and if done correctly, the H and O stay in suspension. Daniel Donatelli calls it is Nano Bubble Water Fuel, and although it looks like water, it can be burnt, and I think this is what Stan used. There is so much good and bad information about Stan out there it's hard to know where to start, but if anyone can be bothered I'd say, if you can read German try this

slideshare.net/choicethailand

otherwise join this patreon site and ask the guy directly

patreon.com/securesupplies

edit. I have no idea if the above is true or not, that's for the individual to decide :-)
Whoa! Hold your horses!

I'm talking about a teensy-tiny bit of H2 here from breaking fuel down to lighter fractions and likely some Ozone and radicals that burn easier/faster, not about Stan Meyer's... shall we say; magical and copious H2. (See Paul Zigouras too... unless all thats been expunged from the net by now)

I do NB that any technology, taken back 300 years would be considered magic, so not saying that there's nothing to Stan and Bob's stuff, but until it's universally understood etc, it's a subject better suited to the Unicorn Corral on this forum, where I'd be happy to discuss it!)

What pgfpro's doing with pre-chambers and ultra high AF and compression ratios is remarkable and requires as fast a burn as possible in/from the pre chamber to be even better.
So something as SIMPLE and easy to test as a constant ~600 volts to a spark plug,
with or without a std spark on top of it, isn't off topic.
That it's backed up by a bit of scientific study helps too. (Well for me anyway )

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Old 05-13-2025, 09:14 AM   #592 (permalink)
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Thanks for sharing deanznz and of course Logic.

As Logic has said "burn rate" is at the utmost importance when running lean burn and extreme lean burn. Lean burn you lose flame speed and the BSFC numbers suffer the leaner you go. So, increasing burn rate helps a ton with poor lean burn BSFC numbers. There is only so much HP available during lean burn due to the low amount of fuel, and to get peak and great average cylinder pressure at the perfect rod angle I need to have a fast burn rate. One more thing to mention is all above is happening at a very light load part of the fuel map. Why I bring this up is I don't want to misguide everyone in thinking my BSFC numbers during light load are amazing, they're really not that great compared to my heavy load BSFC numbers, but they are way better now with a faster burn rate then without.

The other thing worth mentioning is with the pre-chamber I can achieve a strong flame kernel/torch to ignite the very lean normal-combustion chamber area due to the pre-chamber having a richer A/F ratio area then the normal combustion-chamber. So, it only requires a sub-par performance ignition system. You can only go so lean because there is a point where the mechanics of the 4-cycle engine needs x amount of fuel to make x amount of power. Plus, the fuel itself has only so many btu's available.
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Old 06-04-2025, 08:55 PM   #593 (permalink)
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Maserati's MC20 Engine is using combustion pre chambers, meaning its moving out of pgfpro's workshop and F1 and into road going cars you can just buy!
Isn't that a relief!



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Old 06-04-2025, 09:54 PM   #594 (permalink)
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Hi pgfpro, what's your take on Smokey Yunick's hot vapor engine ?

It's hard to find data except what Smokey gave to magazines. One youtuber said it doubled his mpg on an old chevy 350 truck, from 15 mpg to 30 mpg, but no HP increase, (maybe a loss due to his vaporiser setup being low air flow) and he heated the vaporiser unit up with coolant. Others that don't heat it up and try it on lawn mower type engines seem to get no economy increase. Another youtuber has 5 of Smokey's hot vapor engines, and one of his cars but nothing running and measurable as far as I can see.

Did you ever try it ?

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Old 06-05-2025, 09:26 AM   #595 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deanznz View Post
Hi pgfpro, what's your take on Smokey Yunick's hot vapor engine ?

It's hard to find data except what Smokey gave to magazines. One youtuber said it doubled his mpg on an old chevy 350 truck, from 15 mpg to 30 mpg, but no HP increase, (maybe a loss due to his vaporiser setup being low air flow) and he heated the vaporiser unit up with coolant. Others that don't heat it up and try it on lawn mower type engines seem to get no economy increase. Another youtuber has 5 of Smokey's hot vapor engines, and one of his cars but nothing running and measurable as far as I can see.

Did you ever try it ?

.
I see you have already found the Geet etc info.
When you ignore all the 'magic' that's just fuel pyrolysis.
(possibly with some Steam Reformation etc)

This has the same advantages/disadvantages as LPG etc gas modded engines:
The evaporated vapour burns more completely, faster/cleaner, but the gas takes up volume in the chamber that would normally be filled with air/oxygen, so you effectively have a lower capacity engine. (cc, CI) Hence the "same power" talk.

NB that the Geet etc can be made to work cheaply and easily at constant rpm and load.
It also has the advantage of light, compact liquid fuel in a cheap light tank.

For varying rpm and load that all goes to hell where you would need a fancy electronic control of both the fuel and then the gas metering.
Fortunately constant Rpm and load is what you have in a series hybrid.
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Old 06-05-2025, 09:43 AM   #596 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deanznz View Post
Hi pgfpro, what's your take on Smokey Yunick's hot vapor engine ?

It's hard to find data except what Smokey gave to magazines. One youtuber said it doubled his mpg on an old chevy 350 truck, from 15 mpg to 30 mpg, but no HP increase, (maybe a loss due to his vaporiser setup being low air flow) and he heated the vaporiser unit up with coolant. Others that don't heat it up and try it on lawn mower type engines seem to get no economy increase. Another youtuber has 5 of Smokey's hot vapor engines, and one of his cars but nothing running and measurable as far as I can see.

Did you ever try it ?

.
I think Smokey was on to something due to the mere fact that fuel was completely in a vapor form. This does help with burning most of the fuel in every power stroke, but there is more to it than just heating the fuel/air. The fuel has to do more than just light load, and this is why there are light medium and heavy fractions that make up todays fuel and the fuel that Smokey used during his testing.

I did try it and I'm still using this idea. My way of heating the intake air is made much easier than what he did. I'm running an air to water intercooler. In the beginning of a test run I will load up the engine (5lbs worth of boost) a few times. This will heat up the intercooler water and air to 200*F. I can also start the temps at around 200*F by adding boiling water to my intercooler water tank. Both of these ways once the water temps are at 200*F I can maintain these temps pretty easy by just a small amount of light load lean burn 1 psi lbs of boost. Worth noting, I don't run a heat exchanger on my intercooler system, so the intercooler water stays pretty warm. I'm also heating the fuel by using a fuel heating coil that gets its heat next to the exhaust manifold. Another thing I found was when burning automotive waste paint solvent that is made up of very light solvents is I don't need as much heat via intercooler and a heated fuel coil. So, this why I started about few years ago testing different solvents as a fuel.

I would guess on my setup the Smokey idea makes up about 10% of the efficiency improvements. The rest are dynamic compression, lean burn, increased flame speed just to name a few.
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Old 06-05-2025, 11:37 AM   #597 (permalink)
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I'm also heating the fuel by using a fuel heating coil that gets its heat next to the exhaust manifold. Another thing I found was when burning automotive waste paint solvent that is made up of very light solvents
Is it filtered for pigment particles?
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Old 06-05-2025, 01:33 PM   #598 (permalink)
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Is it filtered for pigment particles?
I forgot to mention that the paint waste solvent is ran through an automotive paint recycler, where it boils off all the solvent from resign and pigment in the paint. It comes out crystal clear with no pigment resign or binder.
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Old 06-05-2025, 01:42 PM   #599 (permalink)
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Okey-dok.

I assumed I just hadn't been following closely enough.
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Old 06-06-2025, 05:25 AM   #600 (permalink)
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My apologies if this was covered earlier in the post. I read so much stuff..!
I NB that we are not talking about heating fuel to the point where it breaks down into smaller fractions pre compression stroke here, as is the case with Geet etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pgfpro View Post
I think Smokey was on to something due to the mere fact that fuel was completely in a vapor form. This does help with burning most of the fuel in every power stroke, but there is more to it than just heating the fuel/air. The fuel has to do more than just light load, and this is why there are light medium and heavy fractions that make up todays fuel and the fuel that Smokey used during his testing.
???
My understanding of things is that while the heavy fractions do get you more calories per gallon in your tank, they don't evaporate or burn as well, which is why heating them up helps?
ie: Up to a certain temperature (as you are doing) you make them evaporate better/faster, then above that they start to break down into smaller, more volatile fractions..?
This would only begin to really happen during compression in your case.

(It's at higher, gas carb reqd, type temperatures that one might get a tiny bit of Hydrogen with the judicious use of steam and catalysts like Zinc.
There's a bit to be had elsewhere, pertinent to your setup, too...
But mostly we are heading into gas carb territory here and away from the quick, easy, precise metering and timing of liquid fuel injection)

So; same amount of energy in the tank and going to the engine, but more evaporation and lighter fractions pre use, from waste heat and compression.


As far as the hot air goes what I think happens is:
With air at 200F say, the molecules are further apart, so compressing the gas is easier and compression only starts to add heat after the point where compression alone would have gotten the air up to 200F..?
ie: You end up with something of a Miller Cycle as the initial part of the compression cycle is easier..?

Then during all that or on top of it;
there is less cooling of the combustion chamber due to a smaller delta T between the intake charge and the combustion chamber walls.
That gives you an efficiency gain as less heat is lost and helps give you the higher temperatures useful for igniting/burning very lean mixtures.

(Also the hot air and fuel may lead to a tiny bit of partial oxidation during the compression stroke?? An exothermic reaction at the wrong time, but adds to the heat and temperature reqd for super lean burn)

Quote:
Originally Posted by pgfpro View Post
...I'm also heating the fuel by using a fuel heating coil that gets its heat next to the exhaust manifold.
I assume this heating is after the high pressure fuel pump, so that the pump has liquid, not vapour (lock) to pump, and so that the high pressure then keeps the fuel liquid?

How hot do you make it and how do you control that temperature?
I'm guessing this has to be pretty precise?

Quote:
Originally Posted by pgfpro View Post
Another thing I found was when burning automotive waste paint solvent that is made up of very light solvents is I don't need as much heat via intercooler and a heated fuel coil. So, this why I started about few years ago testing different solvents as a fuel.
This goes to my 1st point..??

And to that point I like to add that any Ozone one can add to the mixture will help.
In the old days of distributors, a small (filtered) vent and a (vacuum) line to the intake would give you some free Ozone and make the distributor work better and last longer to boot.

Nowadays; I see no reason why the spark-plug spark couldn't be made to jump an extra gap in the air filter box!? (slower air) Compacting a bit of O2 to O3 pre filter restriction..?


On pre chamber cooling:
As I understand things you are already injecting fuel during valve overlap, pre TDC to get a rich mixture into the prechamber while the piston is moving very slowly.
You also have a water injection system fitted IIRC.
Is it perhaps possible to add a tiny squirt of water during this pre chamber filling stage, then cut it off for the main intake stroke?
That may just be enough to prevent pre-chamber pre-ignition and perhaps even work well with the copper? to add a bit of Hydrogen.

The only other option,is sub ambient cooling of the chamber using the aircon or evaporative cooling and complex 3D metal printing of a pre chamber with cooling channels, plus a ceramic coating on the nozzle and threads

That tiny squirt of water might be cooled sub ambient as above.


Last edited by Logic; 06-06-2025 at 08:44 PM..
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