My 1991 Talon TSi Compound Turbo AWD

[RustyLugNut]

Originally Posted by Logic

Ye he's looking at his friend's research and looking at the energy in X amount of fuel to call BS or not.
But here's the thing: When the guys who can do 100+ mpg patent, they leave out a critical step.
The (free) 'Secret Ingredient' so to speak, and that would throw David's maths WAY off.
Perhaps he 'snaps' about it, perhaps not. His video series will tell!

I NB that he personally, has had a number of ideas bought out and shelved or roadblocked etc..!
Also NB the MIT Plasmatron.
Be aware that the same is likely for you.
The oil ...'persons' can (and will) certainly afford majority shares in the engine/car sector..!

I have I think; 3 draft Emails that I need to collate and send you, now that my ducks are all in a row! ...more or less!
The thing is; text only ever gets ~10% of what I actually mean across. None of the 'picture' forming hand waving and pen-paper pictures etc and clearing up of missed points etc.

Once a patent is obtained it is PUBLIC information. Otherwise, one could not do a search to ensure the unique standing of a new idea or device. It is perfectly allowable to make use of a standing patent in research or for personal non-commercial use. The idea that an entity can "purchase and shelve" a patent, is patently false. Also, after 15 to 20 years (depending if it is a design or utility patent), the patent becomes public domain and can be used by anyone. Most patents end up on the shelves of obscurity due to one reason or another not because it was purchased to be so but because the time was not right or the execution of it never materialized.

As I've mentioned before in other posts, the Plasmatron is an example. The MIT Plasmatron is due to have the bulk of it's patents become "open" for use. However, the reason you do not see any number of entities working to bring this system to market is the lack of a viable solution to the problem of relatively rapid erosion of the reactor electrodes. If anyone has a viable solution, they could produce and market a plasma reformer system for combustion use. However, no one has. Well . . . I did work on a solution that greatly reduced the erosion . . . at the expense of a much greater level of complexity. This resulted in the abandonment of the idea.

Product development is not a simple or easy process. Most inventors I have known are ill equipped to handle the entirety of the journey by themselves. You must know finance, technology, lawfare, marketing and production. And, you must know yourself and your limits. Most inventors lack in one or more of these areas. And even if you have all your areas covered . . . you most likely will still fail.

My advice to anyone thinking of following the inventors path? Partner with someone with deep pockets. Once you have the money, you can hire the required skills in the remaining areas of need.

[Logic]

Originally Posted by RustyLugNut

Once a patent is obtained it is PUBLIC information. Otherwise, one could not do a search to ensure the unique standing of a new idea or device. It is perfectly allowable to make use of a standing patent in research or for personal non-commercial use. The idea that an entity can "purchase and shelve" a patent, is patently false. Also, after 15 to 20 years (depending if it is a design or utility patent), the patent becomes public domain and can be used by anyone. Most patents end up on the shelves of obscurity due to one reason or another not because it was purchased to be so but because the time was not right or the execution of it never materialized.

As I've mentioned before in other posts, the Plasmatron is an example. The MIT Plasmatron is due to have the bulk of it's patents become "open" for use. However, the reason you do not see any number of entities working to bring this system to market is the lack of a viable solution to the problem of relatively rapid erosion of the reactor electrodes. If anyone has a viable solution, they could produce and market a plasma reformer system for combustion use. However, no one has. Well . . . I did work on a solution that greatly reduced the erosion . . . at the expense of a much greater level of complexity. This resulted in the abandonment of the idea.

Product development is not a simple or easy process. Most inventors I have known are ill equipped to handle the entirety of the journey by themselves. You must know finance, technology, lawfare, marketing and production. And, you must know yourself and your limits. Most inventors lack in one or more of these areas. And even if you have all your areas covered . . . you most likely will still fail.

My advice to anyone thinking of following the inventors path? Partner with someone with deep pockets. Once you have the money, you can hire the required skills in the remaining areas of need.

Search:
buying the sole rights to use a patent?

AI Overview:
...you can...purchase the entire patent through an assignment, which is the outright sale of ownership.
Alternatively, you can negotiate an exclusive license, which grants you the exclusive right to use the patent, but the original patent holder retains ownership and can potentially license it to others in the future (though an exclusive license prevents them from granting any other licenses in a specific territory or for a particular product)

Search;
can a patent holder owner refuse to sell the rights to manufacture using it?

AI Overview:
Yes, a patent holder can refuse to sell the rights to manufacture their invention because a patent grants exclusive rights, and this includes the right to exclude others from using it. The patent owner can choose not to license the patent to anyone for any reason, as saying "no" is a key aspect of the exclusive right itself. The only exceptions are rare cases, such as government-mandated compulsory licensing for public interest reasons, which would still require just compensation.

A plasma arc between the same 2 points for any length of time results in the melting of the electrodes and, to put it plainly, welding!
Now look at this arc in a properly orientated magnetic field:

This starts at the appropriate time:
https://youtu.be/Grl1e4gIP78?t=193

Or 3:14 here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Grl1e4gIP78&t=193s

Does it look like the arc origin points are in the same place for long enough to melt the electrodes?
I don't see any red hot metal..?
I do see a larger reaction zone. In essence a high/est surface area catalyst...

I could look deeper into the science,

https://sci-hub.se/10.1063/1.3677325
https://journals.co.za/doi/pdf/10.10...A0038223X_1659
interesting in that overcooling is the erosion issue! https://patents.google.com/patent/WO1991013532A1/en

but that there looks like an easy home experiment to me.


Also NB the models from other research institutes that use waste exhaust heat to heat both hydrocarbon and water fuel to the temperatures at which steam reformation of Methane is not just feasible but occurring before even getting to the plasmatron.
(No; the pressure in Steam Reformation is only there to drive the H2 through a membrane 'filter'..!)

That's 500+ degrees C that the spark does not have to add, lowering the amperage (heat) required.

Also it does not matter if the reaction takes place to any great degree as the methane and methane like gasses from the stock, age old Fuel Gassification process are a better fuel than gasoline in most respects besides in cylinder oxygen (air) displacement.
Pgfpro has already found advantage in adding water to his fuel.

So in this case, where pgfpro is simply looking for a means to speed up and enhance flame speed, its doubtful he would need more than a modded spark plug or two.

He would like just enough H2 to get away from using the (tiny amount of) NOS he uses currently.
H2 ignites in air from a concentration of just 4%.

Don't feel bad: 'Not everyone' researches and thinks things through this deeply.
2 of my ideas are already incorporated into this engine...
You will get to know me with time.

[RustyLugNut]

Don't feel bad: 'Not everyone' researches and thinks things through this deeply.
2 of my ideas are already incorporated into this engine...
You will get to know me with time.

It is obvious that my decades of experience and education don't stand up to your AI searches. . . Ok, I can't stop laughing, but . . . just don't cross paths with me in court. I'd take your lunch money.

What pgfpro has accomplished in his home garage is nothing short of amazing. His is an example of the inventive spirit. But his path forward is fraught with mountains. He isn't just making the next Shamwow, he is building a complex electromechanical system that will have to find a space in a crowded market. But it can be done. He will need to add capabilities to his team as well as a bit of luck. I can only encourage him.

Divining electrode erosion rates from Youtube videos is a first step. Not deep thinking. Now you will have to calculate fuel flow, arc power to ascertain fuel conversion rates and then deal with the significant throttle lag. All this and more were studied by the team at MIT. If you have deep thoughts . . . I'm quite sure they would be all ears.

And talk about throttle lag . . . steam reformation applications including the use of it in combustion engine exhausts, has been known for quite some time. It has the problematic issues of a narrow running band. Reformation needs time. Too little energy in the exhaust and you kill the reformation. As your engine runs more efficiently, your exhaust drops in energy and so does your reformation. . Pgfpro runs his engine at an extreme lean burn. I dare you to calculate the break over point where steam reformation becomes inviable. This is deep stuff

Because pgfpro is running at extreme lean burn, ignition lag is inevitable. But, I surmise it is not as much lag as you would expect. High swirl, increased intake temperature and increased compression ratio all contribute to reducing ignition lag. Introducing a touch of H2 or O3 helps tremendously in increasing flame propagation. It may not be needed to the degree of 4% H2 by volume due to the thermochemistry of the fuel mix before ignition. If all the above input parameters are high enough, you will see a breakdown of the hydrocarbon fuel chains into H+, OH-, HOOH, etc. The addition of a touch of water adds to the formation of these active radicals. These active radicals are found in the corona edge of a spark. They propagate outwards at rapid pace and collide with fuel chains breaking them up into short chain molecules that rapidly oxidize soon thereafter.

All that being said, pgfpro may only need an ozone generator to push his engine over the edge to reduce combustion lag.

[pgfpro]

Logic and RustyLugNut both of you are great friends and let me introduce you to each other.

RustyLugNut has helped me on my project with some great advice back in 2014 when my project was still in its infancy.

Logic has helped me overcome some issues I was having on this project also. I truly appreciate both of you.

I value both of your expertise with this project. I'm sure hope both of you can get along.

[Logic]

Originally Posted by RustyLugNut

It is obvious that my decades of experience and education don't stand up to your AI searches. . . Ok, I can't stop laughing, but . . . just don't cross paths with me in court. I'd take your lunch money.

ye soz; badly worded and arrogant.
Yesterday's lunch (and everything else) money was around 1USD. (for 2 people)
That and a toothache I cant afford to fix might go some way to explain my ...'attitude'!

This is 'The New South Africa' we are talking about.
My garage/workshop was broken into and basically cleaned out recently.
(No more income from there)
The police feel that stealing from white people is just a redistribution of wealth - to be admired. There has been NO followup whatsoever!

And no; BEE means that as a mid 50s white guy; looking for employment is just a waste of food energy.

Originally Posted by RustyLugNut

What pgfpro has accomplished in his home garage is nothing short of amazing. His is an example of the inventive spirit. But his path forward is fraught with mountains. He isn't just making the next Shamwow, he is building a complex electromechanical system that will have to find a space in a crowded market. But it can be done. He will need to add capabilities to his team as well as a bit of luck. I can only encourage him.

I couldn't agree more!

Originally Posted by RustyLugNut

Divining electrode erosion rates from Youtube videos is a first step. Not deep thinking. Now you will have to calculate fuel flow, arc power to ascertain fuel conversion rates and then deal with the significant throttle lag. All this and more were studied by the team at MIT. If you have deep thoughts . . . I'm quite sure they would be all ears.

And talk about throttle lag . . . steam reformation applications including the use of it in combustion engine exhausts, has been known for quite some time. It has the problematic issues of a narrow running band. Reformation needs time. Too little energy in the exhaust and you kill the reformation. As your engine runs more efficiently, your exhaust drops in energy and so does your reformation. . Pgfpro runs his engine at an extreme lean burn. I dare you to calculate the break over point where steam reformation becomes inviable. This is deep stuff

Because pgfpro is running at extreme lean burn, ignition lag is inevitable. But, I surmise it is not as much lag as you would expect. High swirl, increased intake temperature and increased compression ratio all contribute to reducing ignition lag. Introducing a touch of H2 or O3 helps tremendously in increasing flame propagation. It may not be needed to the degree of 4% H2 by volume due to the thermochemistry of the fuel mix before ignition. If all the above input parameters are high enough, you will see a breakdown of the hydrocarbon fuel chains into H+, OH-, HOOH, etc. The addition of a touch of water adds to the formation of these active radicals. These active radicals are found in the corona edge of a spark. They propagate outwards at rapid pace and collide with fuel chains breaking them up into short chain molecules that rapidly oxidize soon thereafter.

All that being said, pgfpro may only need an ozone generator to push his engine over the edge to reduce combustion lag.

Agree:
No throttle control to speak of.
Fluctuating H2 etc dependent on engine load/heat.
etc.
(Not an issue in constant rpm gensets for series hybrids btw..!)

But how much throttle control and heat etc for H2 is required to idle an engine..?
See where I'm going with this?
A little H2 that needs no throttle control and very little heat.

At higher loads and rpm the std fueling system takes over and the H2 just increases burn rate/flame speed so that pgfpro is not reliant on NOS and the range anxiaty that goes with it.

It's possible a plasmatron (modded sparkplug or 2) isn't even required..?
Or if it is, to add temperature; not one requiring a high amp, welding type spark.
More one very similar to what a std ignition system gives.
Although the plugs may need changing more often.
ie: Keep things simple and off the shelf.

Then plain ...er... logic says that a spiraling spark simply does not have the some origin points for long enough to heat that origin point to the point where there's molten metal.
ie: 'no' welding style metal flow.
There's hardly any point in delving into the research papers on the subject as it's such an easy home experiment IMHO.
(Well that and the fact that there will be uck fall building and testing stuff here anymore)

Yep RESEARCH PAPERS! Peer reviewed and published is where I'm at.
The YouTwit videos are for those who don't have the ability to see the picture from reading such papers, or those that just aren't interested enough to bother reading them.
ie: More marketing and 'see the picture for you' than any source of reliable info.
(there are exceptions)

Ozone:
Yep it may be!
I believe I have mentioned it, at length, here or elsewhere.
Worth noting is that std old electrolysis at voltages above 2.1V makes a lot of O3.
(+ a bit of H2)
I think that perhaps the people jumping up n down online, about HHO generators are blissfully unaware that they are in fact exited about O3 addition. (plus a bit of H2)

UV light and low amp corona discharge are a good way of doing things and require no fill-ups and maintenance.
DBD corona discharge might do double duty by increasing flow in the boundary layer region close to tract and valve surfaces.
That might be very handy when trying to fill a pre-chamber.

This fuel pyrolysis/steam reformation + a small plasmatron stuff is all about using some of the waste heat, vs plain old HHO cells with their high maintenance, or corona/DBD discharge requiring power and fancy production methods.

[Logic]

Originally Posted by RustyLugNut

...All that being said, pgfpro may only need an ozone generator to push his engine over the edge to reduce combustion lag.

Ozone + getting a tiny bit of flow in the right direction, using (very) low amp/power corona discharge.
https://ecomodder.com/forum/showthre...ces-41558.html

IMHO DBD is a better bet because that gets the slow boundary layer air at the walls of the intake tract moving.
ie: That MACH 0.162 yellow bit that's effectively decreasing the intake tract/pipe diameter in the below pic.


(Interesting paper on optimal Bell Mouths in and of itself)
http://www.profblairandassociates.co...mouth_Sept.pdf


Some video of flow in a pipe, using Kapron tape etc by the look of it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rrqBugPPaNo

[Logic]

https://sci-net.xyz/10.1016/j.fuel.2022.125838
I just scanned this quickly:
Proves that low watt corona discharge produces hydrogen. (as well as Ozone)
Also Ethanol is mentioned.
Didn't want to lose the link.

[freebeard]

Didn't want to lose the link.

Site doesn't load (at this time in this location).

[Logic]

Originally Posted by freebeard

Site doesn't load (at this time in this location).

Ye that's various paper 'publishers' trying to shut sci-hub down.
ie: They take papers paid for by tax payers or car makers for eg. and paywall them.

It worked when I viewed it.
This needs a couple of days for a solution to become available.

In the meantime, Here's a link to the abstract (paywalled)
https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...16236122026643

[kach22i]

Originally Posted by RustyLugNut

Product development is not a simple or easy process. Most inventors I have known are ill equipped to handle the entirety of the journey by themselves. You must know finance, technology, lawfare, marketing and production. And, you must know yourself and your limits. Most inventors lack in one or more of these areas. And even if you have all your areas covered . . . you most likely will still fail.

My advice to anyone thinking of following the inventors path? Partner with someone with deep pockets. Once you have the money, you can hire the required skills in the remaining areas of need.

I agree.

I got a working prototype of a tension membrane loudspeaker to work great after just four attempts (over a decade ago) but a serious design flaw required constant tuning on my part, similar to a drum needing to be re-tuned.

I tried to get fancy with the design two more times with a beautiful sexy design and do away with the duct tape/zip ties that were replaced with 200 tiny springs, and it was a total failure.

I have two solid alternative ideas that in combination would resolve all of the previous shortcomings but the time, money and heartbreak of possible failure keeps my ambitions shelved.

I need a patron with business savvy that would allow me to tinker away and collaborate with more experienced talent. Great retirement project.