My hairbrained hybrid hidea!
 

Here's the HHH:

So, I've got two spots open on the crank pulley from not having a/c or power steering. I thought: why not toss a small motor on that could add a few watts to assist the engine? I could get some extra batteries and charge MIMA-like with a button that I flip on during engine braking or what have you (or plug in at home).

Tell me why this is a stupid idea, and I'll forget about it, :)

:thumbup:

I vote fifth wheel though, seems like it would be a little more useful.

But then rolling resistance and hitting crap in the road and all that come into play, eh?

I've seen such a device mentioned before... was it autoblogreen?

Worth a shot

There was one that I saw that was lowered via air cylinder and the tire was a scooter tire so I don't think its a huge RR disadvantage.

A fifth wheel could really help by letting you go EV only and would be great in stop and go traffic and prolonging glides.

A engine mounted motor could help to extend highway leanburn capabilities since it could take some load off the engine. It would also help get to cruising speed a little quicker I guess.

From what Ive seen a nicely sized etek motor with regen kit will cost about $1000. I want to use that setup on my (still on paper) three wheeler.

I think it would work but it seems like quite a bit of time and money.

Vince, you kinda hit on what I was thinking: staying in lean burn on the highway, up hills that might otherwise be to big, or what have you. I'm not really looking to spend much money, kinda hoping this is something I can hack together, :)

Does anyone have a photo of a fifth-wheel hybrid setup? I just googled for it and found a modded insight: Is it too late? - MIMA Honda Insight Modified Integrated Motor Assist Tour De Sol

The idea the OP proposed interests me personally more than the fifth wheel gag, but I honestly have no clue which would give more MPG. Would the electric motor use exclusively its own plug-in batteries or would it be connected to the "real" battery also?

Not a bad idea. Lossy compared to the 5th-wheel setup, but compared to low load operation it's a win-win. IIRC, I think I fiddle around w/ the numbers and figured that w/ lead acid batteries it would be worthwhile w/ gas at $3/gallon even if it only went up to ~10-15mph, just because BSFC at those speeds is crazy high. GM's BAS supposedly increases the efficiency of the Vue by ~20%. If you could fit one, a modded ~3-4hp 36V golf cart motor would be great. You could toss in a ~$600 LiFePO4 pack if everything works out and have something that'd be a half to a quarter of the cost of gasoline to run at low load.

Here we go:

Electrocharger / Retrofit Hybrid :: Sigma Automotive

You're welcome.

No Thank You Frank!!!!! :p

I'm pretty sure it would have to be separate; otherwise the alternator would try to recharge the batteries, resulting in lower efficiency.

golf cart for parts:thumbup:

so when can we expect to see a prototype?

:D

Would you use it to re-start also? Seems like a good idea to me. What sort of batt setup are you looking at?

RH77

Have you considered storing the energy as compressed air? An air motor is very compact. Have it pump air into an (LP) gas tank (in the spare tire well?) while braking, then use that compressed air to drive the motor during acceleration. If I calculated correctly, you can store about 100 Joules of energy per litre of tank and atmosphere of pressure. So a 5-gallon tank pumped up to 100 psi has enough energy (13 kJ= 3.6 Wh, ignoring losses) to accelerate a 2400-lb car to about 11 mph. Not too bad, relatively cheap and needs only a very primitive controller. This is sort of a surge regenerative energy concept like they're designing for Formula 1 cars.

I've been looking for places on my car to couple the energy in. The only place I found was the inner CV joint housings on either side of the differential. These are sturdy, 100-mm-diameter cylinders that you could theoretically attach a drive belt or rubber roller to.

Ok -- I just signed up and I just found this site -- and wow -- what a bunch of open minded folks -- thank goodness. Ok -- I call this idea a Hybrid Adapter -- or HYBRAD -- as we are adapting to the situation at hand and making a hybrid out of our existing car.
There are a few ongoing projects -- please go to my wiki page which is hosted at the PESWIKI project -- link at http://www.hybrad.com

These HYBRAD efforts are all still on the ground floor as far as I'm concerned -- it is a good time to get in and produce some solid results -- modifying your ICE car and making it a hybrid is not rocket science -- but you have to put some effort into it. I'm building my "fifth wheel" out of a Ninja 250. This other guy built a "pusher trailer" -- see the wiki page.

I'm looking forward to working with you all and really glad I found this place.

iHero -

Welcome to EM! Sounds like you're working on a ground-up Electric version of these "EV Extender's" :

Mike Chancey's Civic Pusher Trailer
http://www.evalbum.com/img/753/753a.jpg

EV Pusher Trailer
http://www.mrsharkey.com/evgfx/push0.jpg

Idea: The shape of the trailer could accommodate a tear-drop "boat tail" shape to "complete" the aerodynamics of a car.

CarloSW2

I think that a trailer is a lot more intrusive than a fifth wheel, which is in turn a lot more intrusive than the OP's idea. But perhaps with that intrusiveness comes even greater effectiveness?

The trailer can often offer an aero benefit as well. Budget can impede this design tho.

RH77

Hi Satz,
indeed. My fifth wheel, or back half of a Kawasaki Ninja 250 frame, will have a hinge on it at the hitch eventually, so it can fold in close to the vehicle for parking. I'm thinking of using a winch and spring and casters to control the movement.

That is a really cool idea! I wonder when/if it will become available?

Here's a 'powered trailer' thread posted awhile ago that has some interesting ideas...
http://ecomodder.com/forum/showthrea...idea-2975.html

But I think the OP's idea is very intriguing; A motor/generator under the hood spinning the ICE for acceleration. Would a standard V-belt be able to transfer the power? Or would you have to use a toothed belt?

I would think that using a small motor for light accel assist and leanburn assist a standard v-belt would be ok.

So where would this motor go? You may have header clearance issues if you try and mount it where the AC used to go.

I think the best thing to do would be to relocate the alt to the front of the engine and rig up the motor on the rear. The alt would also be much easier to un-belt.

Maybe add a ac style clutch to the motor so you wouldn't waste any energy spinning it up when not in use.

The electrocharger seems to replace the alternator. So you just remove the alternator, and install this in it's place. It works as a motor to assist, and also works as a generator to charge batteries.

on the subject of adding an electric motor to assit the ICE... Good thought SVO Boy.

Thinking out loud here... one of the problems you'll have is that the puny OEM V-belt or serpentine belts and pulleys aren't up to transfering very much power. That is to say, transfer any significant amount of torque (either driving or driven, or both) through a pulley drive intended for a PS pump, and I'd expect the belt to slip. The limitations aren't so hard to overcome, no harder than adding available street hot rod blower drive components (Search RCD for the pro stuff, Holley, Wieand, and maybe Dick Landy for the light weight street stuff), but not the plug-n-play solution we all hope for.

I am liking the trailer hitch mounted designs more and more, but small and short so downtown parking isn't such an issue, where EV makes the most sense.

how much power does an Ac compressor take to run, 5 hp? The belt seems to do just fine even with the clutch engaging and disengaging @ 3000+ rpm.

rjacob -

I've been watching it for over two years and it hasn't seen the light of day, :( .

You can see the updates, and between September 2004 and now it has not gotten out of R&D.

CarloSW2

As to the OP's idea of adding an electric motor to the engine...

The belt is made to drive alternators, power steering, and A/C compressor. I don't think it would handle much power. I don't think this would be a very efficient way to add power. In fact I would suspect that the added weight, would diminish any advantage to less efficiency overall. I don't know this but I suspect that it would be kinda like a hydrogen car. Don't they have much less efficiency? Hydrogen is not free, it takes more energy to make it for driving than it does to drive with gasoline.

I think the pusher trailer is likely to be more efficient. Ideally a electric motor between the engine and transmission like the GM Hybrids would be ideal.

Later,

Allan Greenblazer

I hope this reply works....it's my first with a pic

I'd recommend trying a 3 HP motor -- Here is a pic of my friend Andrew Hoff's "electrocharger / hybrid adapter" He used a 1.75 HP motor but only saw MPG gains around 10 percent (which isn't bad actually for a 4x4 Ford Explorer)

PowerPedia:Hybrid Adapter - PESWiki
http://peswiki.com/index.php/Image:Hoff_hybrad.jpg

I've seen this idea before, never got far though. I think it has good merits, simple design, easy to implement. But I don't worry about the belt. If they can make a belt designed to handle 250hp (CVT on Audi's) then the 5hp assist you want should be fine. I'll even bet you could put a 3-5hp motor on there, and get a high quality stock AC belt to match. Simple, no trying to find the right size or mess with the crank pulley (v-belt vs. ribbed).

@ iHero: Looks like your friend bolted a pulley to the crank pulley, since its a serpentine belt setup stock. Curious if there are detailed pictures of that install.

Another random thought I haven't read above: rpms. what range do you want it to be active, the whole engine's range or just a small range? A small range makes for a cheaper motor and you can use pulley sizes to adjust the TQ to the ICE.

hm. Now I want to do this on my GP, just go find the supercharged 3.8 pulley parts and use them.

Speaking to powered trailers:
EV Pusher Trailer

This guy has a long journal describing his experience with a homebrew pusher - I especially love how his first iteration used a manual (!) whose clutch was operated by a remote-controlled dealie powered by a cordless drill.

I've got more pics of Hoff's HYBRAD -- how do I post them ?

Yes -- I think belts are strong enough/ won't slip for a 5 HP motor -- but I'd prefer a version with grooves. But will a bigger motor fit under the hood -- or do you need a scoop/buldge in your hood?

Regarding RPMs -- this is a crucial issue whether you are building an internal or external hybrid adapter. Are you going to want to vary the RPM? then you'll need an expensive controller and likely a feedback loop like cruise control / PID controller. If you are going to just help from a stop --then you'll need the motor to kick off at a certain RPM.

My buddy picked his highway cruising RPM and used a single control voltage to power the motor. He didn't spend much time experimenting with different pulley sizes to maximize MPG.