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-   -   My new car can go 410 miles on the energy of one gallon of petrol; unmodified! (https://ecomodder.com/forum/showthread.php/my-new-car-can-go-410-miles-energy-37633.html)

teknomage2012 07-05-2019 07:21 AM

My new car can go 410 miles on the energy of one gallon of petrol; unmodified!
 
My new car can go 410 miles on the energy of one gallon of petrol; unmodified!

It has no transmission or driveline to require regular maintenance every ~200,000 miles.

All wheel drive with vector traction control.

Aerodynamics rule it's design with factory rear wheel cover spats, smooth lines, swept built in kamback, and ultralight weight construction.

https://lightyear.one/lightyear-one/

RedDevil 07-05-2019 07:50 AM

Wow that's great.

Open a garage entry for your new car and please keep the details about the car to one of the already threads about the Lightyear One, like this one:
https://ecomodder.com/forum/showthre...uct-35317.html

ME_Andy 07-05-2019 01:43 PM

Wow, did you really buy one? They look very cool but quite pricey.

Daschicken 07-05-2019 02:27 PM

They are not out yet. Deliveries start in 2021 according to them. I like the look of it :thumbup: Oh, and $170,000. Looks like they jumped on the carbon fiber bandwagon...

I could use some aero wheels for my car, right now I just have light wheels. They kind of look like BMW's i3 wheels so i'm guessing they use the same tires. Super tall and skinny.

teknomage2012 07-05-2019 04:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ME_Andy (Post 601356)
Wow, did you really buy one? They look very cool but quite pricey.

My reservation number is after the first 1000, Wich means only 4000€ down now. It probably won't be ready till late 2022.

Even if I can't pull the rest of the cost out of my hat by then, they can keep my 4k for bringing to market such a modern car.

I've lost more money than that on a bar bet...

https://lightyear.one/reserve/

LeanBurn 07-05-2019 05:16 PM

Have you performed a cost analysis against a Prius of Leaf to see when the break even point is, or yearly cost would be?

oil pan 4 07-05-2019 07:27 PM

That's like 12 miles per kwh.
The best I can do in my leaf is about 5.5 miles per kwh.
Electric motor cycles usually don't break 10 miles per kwh.
It would have to average 5kw at 60 mph to make 12 miles per kwh. That's less than 7hp. It doesn't look anywhere near that aerodynamic.
So when it doesn't get 400mpge don't be surprised, or if it only can approach 400mpge at 20mph with no heat or A/C just remember we told you so.

freebeard 07-05-2019 09:59 PM

Quote:

My new car...
As the programmers say, "For certain values of [my_new_car]". :)

I've held an Arcimoto reservation number for more than 2 years. I'm waiting for them to ship a model at their advertised price point. They're following Tesla's policy of shipping the upmarket models first.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daschicken
...BMW's i3 wheels so i'm guessing they use the same tires. Super tall and skinny.

What do the sidewalls say?

https://ecomodder.com/forum/showthre...res-25208.html

See especially Permalink #139

I think they'd look best on 1947 MG-TC 19" knock-off wire wheels. :thumbup:

oldtamiyaphile 07-05-2019 10:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oil pan 4 (Post 601391)
That's like 12 miles per kwh.
The best I can do in my leaf is about 5.5 miles per kwh.
Electric motor cycles usually don't break 10 miles per kwh.
It would have to average 5kw at 60 mph to make 12 miles per kwh. That's less than 7hp. It doesn't look anywhere near that aerodynamic.
So when it doesn't get 400mpge don't be surprised, or if it only can approach 400mpge at 20mph with no heat or A/C just remember we told you so.

They also claim 22,000km per year of travel on the solar panels :rolleyes:

They list solar charging at 12km/h. I have roughly 1/2 that area of panels on my van and the most I've seen is ~700wh/day.

But at least in theory, if you park in the sun and don't drive a lot you'd have infinite mpge based on your grid charger usage.

teknomage2012 07-06-2019 06:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LeanBurn (Post 601378)
Have you performed a cost analysis against a Prius of Leaf to see when the break even point is, or yearly cost would be?


NOPE
There are things in life more important than just money and ROI. Like the ability of my grandchildren to breath in a world not fighting over centralized oil resources!

Bean counters make me sick!

RedDevil 07-06-2019 08:23 AM

There's value in the concept.
While at this cost point a regular Tesla and a large home based solar array makes more sense (*) in most scenarios, the relative independence (even if you get stranded with nowhere to charge, you just need to wait and eventually you can move on) has strong appeal.

Even if you never need it. But that's a given. So many 4x4's never leave the pavement. We live by illusions. Even if your use case for the LightYear One turns out to be an illusion, it is a good one.
We (the truck, MPV, muscle car commuters) need better illusions...

(*) as an afterthought, a second hand Mirage, energy-usage focused home improvements and an even larger solar array for the same money makes even more sense. But less fun?

freebeard 07-06-2019 12:00 PM

The biggest problem I see is that you'd have to leave it out in the weather.

oil pan 4 07-06-2019 06:52 PM

Buying an electric car isn't going to save the world.
If any one is really interested in saving the world then they should be riding a bicycle.

Daschicken 07-06-2019 08:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by teknomage2012 (Post 601419)
NOPE
There are things in life more important than just money and ROI. Like the ability of my grandchildren to breath in a world not fighting over centralized oil resources!

Bean counters make me sick!

I think I read an article suggesting buying a cheaper electric car plus solar panels for the house etc. would be better use of the money. I can understand the bean counter part though.

Quote:

Originally Posted by oil pan 4 (Post 601456)
Buying an electric car isn't going to save the world.
If any one is really interested in saving the world then they should be riding a velomobile.

Fixed.

freebeard 07-06-2019 09:07 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Originally Posted by oil pan 4
Buying an electric car isn't going to save the world.
If any one is really interested in saving the world then they should be riding a velomobile.

Fixed.
Compromise on Arcimoto FUV?

https://3c1703fe8d.site.internapcdn....070c3b2b7b.jpg
https://techxplore.com/news/2019-07-...tric-cars.html

Quote:

Reports noted the solar cells were extremely efficient. According to The Drive, the solar Sharp-made solar cells are of the triple-junction compound type, sporting a conversion efficiency of 34 percent, and occasionally more.

Etherington: "The new system will provide up to 44.5 km (27.7 miles) of additional range per day while parked and soaking up sun, and can add up to 56.3 km (35 miles) of power to both the driving system and the auxiliary power battery on board, which runs the AC, navigation and more."

All in all, Elektrek offered its take on the news:

"As we always like to point out with these solar car efforts, a car's roof is not the most ideal place to install solar cells. They would most likely be more efficient installed on the rooftop of a home and then, you can use the power to charge your vehicle. However, there's something appealing about your vehicle producing its own energy and it is starting to get more attractive with the specs Toyota is talking about now."

slowmover 07-06-2019 11:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by teknomage2012 (Post 601331)
My new car can go 410 miles on the energy of one gallon of petrol; unmodified!

It has no transmission or driveline to require regular maintenance every ~200,000 miles.

All wheel drive with vector traction control.

Aerodynamics rule it's design with factory rear wheel cover spats, smooth lines, swept built in kamback, and ultralight weight construction.

https://lightyear.one/lightyear-one/


That’s nice for a 1/64th scale model.

Given that all-electric cars aren’t “clean” in any reasonable sense of using that word; and then the bean-counting financials which have to account for the pesky military’s, etc, needed for production where materials are imported.

Maybe it will scale up.

.

oil pan 4 07-07-2019 01:59 AM

Oh 34% efficient cells?
They probably cost 10x as much as 24% efficient cells.
Solar cells can go all the way up to nearly 50% last time I checked.
The light year thing probably also uses unusually higher efficiency, super expensive, funky element containing, planet destroying, radioactive waste byproduct solar cells too.

litesong 07-27-2019 11:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by teknomage2012 (Post 601419)
Bean counters make me sick!

Bean counters killed 3 astronauts in 1967 & seven in 1986.

cowmeat 07-28-2019 09:00 AM

Quote:

That's like 12 miles per kwh.
The best I can do in my leaf is about 5.5 miles per kwh.
Electric motor cycles usually don't break 10 miles per kwh.
It would have to average 5kw at 60 mph to make 12 miles per kwh. That's less than 7hp. It doesn't look anywhere near that aerodynamic.
So when it doesn't get 400mpge don't be surprised, or if it only can approach 400mpge at 20mph with no heat or A/C just remember we told you so.
I agree - I don't think a real world car and driver will average within 100 mpge of that claim, it seems more likely they'll see maybe half of that. I drive an EV every day, and although the Lightyear One is lighter and more aerodynamic than mine, it's not that much lighter or aerodynamic, and I can only occasionally baby my Volt above 200 mpge, trying hard in perfect driving conditions

That being said, it's still pretty cool. Heck, I still have my place in line for an Elio!

Lemmy 07-28-2019 04:35 PM

I'm just wondering how much petrol I could buy for £130,000.

Or maybe I should buy a 30k Leaf, charge at home on my 5kW solar, and buy a seaside home with the £100,000 I've saved.

The answer to a question few had even been asking...

oil pan 4 07-29-2019 12:16 AM

If the dc to dc converter and inverter is super efficient (it's possible) and the car gets driven like 12 mph yeah it might hit 10 miles per kwh.
I hear people who use their leaf as its design intended can hit 6 to 7 miles per kwh, which is using it at low speeds in the city. If the leaf had a super efficient drive system and eliminate most of the stand by losses, which is about 700 watts on a leaf like mine, might hit 10 miles per kwh.
But if you drive on the highway and use A/C you won't see anything near 10 miles per kwh, more like 5 miles per kwh.

Don't spend 30,000 on a leaf, get a used one a few years old for around 10,000.

redpoint5 07-29-2019 12:50 PM

...or get a new one for ~$16k after incentives if you live in Oregon.

oil pan 4 07-29-2019 10:29 PM

That sounds sustainable.

Vman455 07-31-2019 07:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oil pan 4 (Post 603270)
If the leaf had a super efficient drive system and eliminate most of the stand by losses, which is about 700 watts on a leaf like mine, might hit 10 miles per kwh.

That seems...wow, much higher than I expected. Is that with things like headlights and radio on?

oil pan 4 07-31-2019 10:38 PM

Normal accessories, no heat or A/C, trying to eco drive in the city, in warmer weather, keep it under 35mph.
All bets are off in winter.
I see people who eco drive them in the city hit 6 to 7 miles per kwh. Knock most of that 700w load off the top and you get more miles per kwh.

Stubby79 08-01-2019 11:10 AM

Let us know if and how you manage to convert one gallon of petrol in to that amount of electricity...then I'll be impressed!

oil pan 4 08-01-2019 11:10 PM

A parlor trick that can possibly be accomplished under a very specific set of conditions.

Stubby79 08-02-2019 11:22 AM

Heck, get 30-40% of said 410 miles (peak engine efficiency) and I will be just as impressed.

oil pan 4 08-02-2019 01:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stubby79 (Post 603644)
Heck, get 30-40% of said 410 miles (peak engine efficiency) and I will be just as impressed.

It's an electric vehicle.
To compare it to my leaf which achieved the equivalent of about 170 mpg over a 1,210 mile average for the month of July is pretty good.
People who drive a leaf in the city and keep it under 35mph can hit about 200 mpg.
Even my primitive leaf with its at best 2008 technology is well over 1/3 of the way to 410mpg.

Snax 08-05-2019 03:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oil pan 4 (Post 603674)
It's an electric vehicle.
To compare it to my leaf which achieved the equivalent of about 170 mpg over a 1,210 mile average for the month of July is pretty good.
People who drive a leaf in the city and keep it under 35mph can hit about 200 mpg.
Even my primitive leaf with its at best 2008 technology is well over 1/3 of the way to 410mpg.

The best I could do with my i3 on a <40 mph 10 mile round trip to the store was 205.5 MPGe, or 6 mi/kWh.

Considering it is in the top 3 rated for city efficiency with the Ioniq pulling off some sort of magic and the significantly lighter iQ EV being the only ones ahead of it, I am skeptical real world claims will come in much over 200 for the car.

Even at 25 mph, the best I can get is scarcely over 9 mi/kWh or 300 MPGe.

Snax 08-05-2019 03:52 PM

The only way I see it possible to exceed 400 MPGe at this point requires absolutely ideal conditions, very slow speeds, and relying upon the solar panels for full production (which I doubt will ever happen).

Using the specs from their site, the panels provide a maximum of 1.27kW.

So lets just assume that this car can regularly actually sustain 200 MPGe, or 6-ish mi/kWh at 35 MPH. In one hour, the car would obviously travel 35 miles, consuming about 6kWh. Subtract full production of the panels to see about 4.7kWh pack expenditure. Flipping that back to mi/kWh, we get about 7.4. That is still well under 300 MPGe, or most roughly, just under 250 MPGe.

The only ways to get over 400 MPGe with those calcs in mind are to assume one or more things to be true:

1) This car sees significantly over 300 MPGe in typical driving,
2) They are lumping in potential power production from the panels while parked, or
3) It must be driven far slower.

But if we get to add in solar panel production, I am going to take credit for the 5 kW array on my home, the less than 100 miles I typically drive in a week, and always charging at home (when I'm not conducting flawed aerodynamic tests :rolleyes:). The numbers on that cross infinity in all but November and December here in the northern hemisphere.

RedDevil 08-05-2019 06:44 PM

Don't forget it is designed by the team that built the Stella solar racer, which got maybe over 1000 MPGe at highway speeds - while seating 4 adults.
Extreme aerodynamics, very low (less than a meter IIRC), extreme light weight and bicycle-like tires did that.
While it does run around like a car the Stella is way too vulnerable to be practically viable.

The Lightyear is strong enough to be safe to drive, but it still has very narrow wheels, low height, low weight and low air resistance, so the power to move it is in a completely different league than other roadworthy EVs.

If they claim 400 MPGe then don't just assume they lie. Instead appreciate that an economy race winning team knows quite a lot about calculating MPGe.

Vman455 08-05-2019 06:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snax (Post 603929)
But if we get to add in solar panel production, I am going to take credit for the 5 kW array on my home, the less than 100 miles I typically drive in a week, and always charging at home (when I'm not conducting flawed aerodynamic tests :rolleyes:). The numbers on that cross infinity in all but November and December here in the northern hemisphere.

We laugh, but Toyota itself has engaged in such foolery. In 2014 they took a Plug-in Prius to the Nürburgring and then claimed to the media it had achieved 698 mpg because the gas engine only turned on for part of the 13-mile loop and the rest was run on battery power. That result is only possible if you don't count the electricity used at all.

Snax 08-06-2019 06:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RedDevil (Post 603937)
Don't forget it is designed by the team that built the Stella solar racer . .

If they claim 400 MPGe then don't just assume they lie. Instead appreciate that an economy race winning team knows quite a lot about calculating MPGe.

I don't want to discount their efforts at all. I think they are trying to build a noteworthy car with considerable promise.

I think, as I illustrated however, that the math suggests a lack of credibility on the MPGe claim without fudging other factors. Nobody is going to get 400 MPGe out of one of these cars without that fudge factor (and I will happily admit being wrong if they do). Rolling resistance alone is likely to make that an exceptionally lofty goal.

I will suggest that the Lightyear could potentially be the most stellar production highway performer to ever hit the road. They have certainly devoted plenty of good design to that end.

RedDevil 08-07-2019 04:38 AM

If you think 400 MPGe is out of the question...

https://inhabitat.com/worlds-most-ef...us-26135-mpge/

26.135 MPGe!
Okay, that is an extreme solar racer. But it should not be that hard to build something roadworthy if it is allowed to use 65 times as much power?

arcosine 08-07-2019 12:17 PM

Dont forget to include the inefficiencies of the coal powered station generating the electricity to run this car.

oil pan 4 08-07-2019 12:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snax (Post 603924)
The best I could do with my i3 on a <40 mph 10 mile round trip to the store was 205.5 MPGe, or 6 mi/kWh.

Considering it is in the top 3 rated for city efficiency with the Ioniq pulling off some sort of magic and the significantly lighter iQ EV being the only ones ahead of it, I am skeptical real world claims will come in much over 200 for the car.

Even at 25 mph, the best I can get is scarcely over 9 mi/kWh or 300 MPGe.

My leaf is driven 75% on the highway.

oil pan 4 08-07-2019 12:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vman455 (Post 603939)
We laugh, but Toyota itself has engaged in such foolery. In 2014 they took a Plug-in Prius to the Nürburgring and then claimed to the media it had achieved 698 mpg because the gas engine only turned on for part of the 13-mile loop and the rest was run on battery power. That result is only possible if you don't count the electricity used at all.

They may be trying to not include the solar power in the overall mpg number and count it was free power.

Vman455 08-07-2019 10:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RedDevil (Post 604024)
But it should not be that hard to build something roadworthy if it is allowed to use 65 times as much power?

https://inhabitat.com/wp-content/blo...am-889x568.jpg

This thing has a CD probably <0.10, is as large as a coffin, and races at a blistering 25 km/h. When you scale that up to something that seats 4 and isn't the size of a matchbox, has a significantly higher CD and frontal area, and drives on the highway...400 MPGe is a tough goal to meet. Even the VW XL1 was less than 300 MPGe running on electricity. (Keep in mind that power required to overcome aerodynamic drag increases with the cube of velocity).

RedDevil 08-09-2019 04:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcosine (Post 604068)
Dont forget to include the inefficiencies of the coal powered station generating the electricity to run this car.

Don't forget the inefficiencies of producing gasoline.

Coal is on its way out, wind and solar are growing.
For the first half of 2019 Germany generated more electricity from wind and solar than from coal and nuclear, and Germany traditionally burns, or burned, a lot of coal.


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