My Solar PV Thread
 

EDIT: Link to the stats on my solar system.


I'm starting a thread here since Saving @ Home doesn't get much attention.

Some Oregon utilities have enticing subsidies for people that meet income criteria. My parents do, so I signed them up with the program to explore PV options.

Tomorrow a PV outfit is stopping by to evaluate the site and bid the project. I'll get at least 2 more bids before moving forward with any of them. The utility subsidy is a direct reduction in upfront price because they fund the installer directly. Then there's a 26% federal tax credit. My parents need a new roof, so a portion of that cost can be offset by the tax credit.

I've not been following PV technology lately, so any advice is appreciated. All I know is we probably want micro-inverters. I'd also like the system a little overbuilt since I'm also looking to get them a used EV.

If all that pencils out well and goes smoothly enough, I'll consider solar for my house. The utility offers higher income households a reduced subsidy, and that stacks with the federal tax credit. I'll need a new roof in 5 years, so rolling that into the install makes sense. That got me to thinking about Tesla's v3 Solarglass.

https://www.tesla.com/solarglass/design

It probably doesn't pencil out well financially, but it could come close. If the roof is capable of outliving an asphalt shingle roof, I'd be willing to pay a bit more. I hate asphalt shingle.

https://ecomodder.com/forum/attachme...1&d=1588870239

I can literally build or reactivate fully functional RPG7 and have it be 100% legal easier than I can build and install my own solar power generation.

Micro inverters are dumb. They're fine if you have trees you can't cut down or are spending other people's money.
If you have a good location micros are a waste of money.

If you want to do it cheap get big used poly crystal panels no one wants. Hint, they will be too big for micro inverters.
Get a used inverter with some warranty left.

Watch out for installers running up the bill, this is the one thing they are really good at.

The appeal of micro inverters is mix/match procured panels as you mention, and expanding later on. Not sure what the price premium of micro is vs series, but I'd pay a small premium for the ease in expanding/modifying the system later on, and the extra data I could nerd over.

Oh no if you get used panels, buy them by the pallet, all the same, plus 1 or 2 extra.
It's a big difference. Micro inverters can easily cost 2 to 3 times that of a string inverter.

I would use micro inverters, if my panels were small enough, but let's say I had rood for 12 panels, but 10 puts me at the voltage limit for the inverter and stick those last 2 on micros, or I get a few panels on the edge of the array that get shade.

The best money in used inverters is 3 to 4kw that because those are super common and if you have to have it shipped most 4kw inverters are under the freight weight limit.

Well, first bid is complete. They quoted a much larger system than I had originally expected. 10.4 kW 30 panel system (Hanwha duo g5 325 Mono). I asked why not poly, and he said the cost savings aren't there and hardly anyone makes them. AP System YC600 dual microinverter x15.

$31,558 gross cost parts and labor = $3.03 per installed watt.

1. Pretty much needs to be ground mount because permitting on a manufactured home is a 60/40 gamble. That adds $0.30 - $0.40 per kWh, or about 12%.

2. Oregon law precludes series inverters if solar is installed on a habitable structure. That means this contractor has only been installing micros and optimizers, so the quoted cost was for one of those even though a series inverter is acceptable on a ground mount. I didn't follow his logic on that...

3. Array would be approximately 50 feet by 10 feet and a line trenched about 150ft to the house.

Should qualify for $14,000 in upfront incentives or a total bill of $17,558. = $1.69 net cost. Federal tax credit of 26% should bring that down to $12,993, or $1.25 net cost.

You generally want mono, they're more efficient.
When you factor in shipping, racking, weight, available roof area.
But if you have unlimited room for panels go cheap.
I got really big used 295w polys that no one wanted.

Yeah you don't want want to put thousands of pounds on a mobile home roof. My little starter roof top 3.6kw weighs about 900lb the main roof support is a 6 inch I beam.

I'm ok with ground mount. The roof has a shallow pitch and my dad angled the house away from true south. It will be easy to adjust pitch and clean the panels this way, plus they should stay cooler/more efficient.

Curious what your cost per watt ended up being, your own labor excluded?

Tesla's website is estimating a much lower cost compared to the quote above. $25k for an 11.4kW system before any incentives. Of course, that probably assumes roof mount and optimal engineering to fit it all. Maybe I'll get a quote from them too.

https://www.tesla.com/energy/design

Running total is about 70 cents a watt.
But that's big polys no one wants, used inverter, racking on galvanized steel unistrut which may not be an option for places where it rains a lot.
Wire and emt came from my huge collection, it would have run around 10 cents a watt if I had bought it retail.

My parents qualify for an extra $5k that I wouldn't, so it makes contracting out the work more appealing, especially since it will have a warranty.

It's hard to find used panels with a warranty but easy to find a used inverter with a few years left.

Why would you not?
Maybe that's why? All the 'mobile homes' around me have a structure like a carport roof over them, being RVs. Could the 'ground mount' be on 12ft columns?


edit:
FYI —Tesla have conventional panels as well as the glass roof tiles:

Tesla Solarglass V3 Efficiency Revealed

TLDR:

Good point, I'll get a quote from Tesla. Their normal PV panels have a $100 refundable deposit. The Solarglass has a $100 non-refundable deposit.

What would be the advantage of placing the ground mount 12' up? The appeal of ground mount is ease of maintenance and seasonal adjustment.

Regarding Solarglass, I'm interested because it also replaces the roof, so the cost of a conventional roof needs to be factored into the price. I'd be willing to pay a bit extra too if Solarglass roofing will hold up a substantial amount better than asphalt shingle. It's unclear to me how the roof is waterproof, because the glass panels don't appear to overlap on the sides, and they sit on plastic standoffs that appear to be nailed to the sheathing. I'd be concerned with the longevity of the plastic standoffs considering the heat they would be subject to.

https://cleantechnica.com/files/2019...Technica-4.jpg

EDIT:

Perhaps the edges have a trough that catches water and sends it to the top of the panel below it.

https://pv-magazine-usa.com/wp-conte...solarglass.jpg

Not sure what the carport roof comment is. The manufactured home my parents bought had a carport, but we didn't assemble it when moved to their property because they wanted a garage.

Mobile homes aren't RVs. They are traditional stick-built structures built in a factory rather than on site. They are assembled on site and usually never move again.

https://ecomodder.com/forum/attachme...1&d=1581702990

A suggestion to circumvent local regulations (and roof loading limitations). Maybe not applicable.

Update: Tesla not a "trade ally", so they can't claim either DOE or utility funds.

I reached out to 2 other local companies to schedule a bid.

Vas ist das?

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=a+%22trade+ally%22 first result is:
Who is the controlling authority of this?

ODOE and EnergyTrust.

freebeard, you've got to become a landowner so you can take advantage of the regressive programs out there. Also because you place importance on liberty. At the very least, an ADU.

ODOE will pay $5k for solar, and EnergyTrust will pay $9k up to 6 kWh for lower income folks. Then the feds allow 26% of the remaining cost to be deducted from taxes and carried forward 20 years.

I would be if it weren't for my brother. He inherited three tax lots (two contiguous, one a traffic island) and my other brother and I came up short.

Our younger brother is gone, and he's expecting to be by the time that Kate Brown's machinations reach fruition. I'm planning for another 20 years. Maybe a houseboat? I could put the [35ft R-license park model] on pontoons.

Ah, water living. That sounds like freedom to me.

My retirement idea was to get a sailboat and travel. I bet there'd be autonomous sailing by then, or I could make my own. Shouldn't be too tricky to attach servos to the sheets.

That's what the younger brother did, bought a sailboat in Portland, learned to sail, out the Columbia bar and hop-scotched down the coast to the Sea of Cortez. Seasonal migrant the length of the peninsula.

But the health care available in Mexico didn't help with organ failure, and he made it back as far as the UofO medical castle on the hill overlooking Portland.

I'd look for a protected anchorage, maybe Tillamook Bay at Garibaldi.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped..._Garibaldi.jpg

The top of that hill the big G is on would be a perfect place to watch the mega-tsunami crest around you.

BatteryHookup announced yesterday they are selling PV panels for $0.15/watt. I think they are in PA though so that wouldn't help you. lol
Older 180W panels so you would have to be willing to probably pick them up, and be able to have an unlimited space array... considering they're probably less than half efficient as the new panels.

Space is no issue at all on my parent's 30 acres.

My house has essentially no yard, so I'm confined to a few small sections of south facing roof and west facing that may be shaded in the late afternoon.

As it sits, the incentives will pay $14,000 on a 6 kWh ($2.34/watt) system at my parents, and that doesn't factor in the 26% federal tax credit on whatever amount over that it goes. It's a no-brainer to contract this out for my parents.

I'm getting a bid for an 8 kWh system at my house, which is the minimum size that maximizes the subsidies. I only qualify for $7,500 ($0.94/watt), but I can still deduct 26% of my cost from my federal tax liability.

I saw a mobile home off of the main road going through town several miles from here. It had a carport-style roof over it. We do not have Google Street View here, so I cannot try to find a picture of it. This is the best that I found easily, but the one that I saw did not look like a hat. The pictures that I found before this were entirely supported by the mobile home, not by posts.

https://ecomodder.com/forum/attachme...1&d=1581928238

A manufactured home is built to HUD standards on a chassis with wheels and a trailer arm and a modular home is transported on one or more trailers, moved via crane, permanently bolted to concrete, and must conform to all local, state or regional building codes.

Mobile homes have not been produced in over forty years. One standard was made in 1974 and another in 1976, requiring far higher quality, and they are called "Manufactured homes" to reflect that.

I don't recall ever seeing a roof over a roof of a house. Seems redundant. It's why I have a fundamental issue with the necessity to purchase a cover for the grill cover. Reminds me of the absurdity of having turtles all the way down to support the earth.

My parents manufactured home was built in the 90's to whatever housing codes existed then. The trailer components were removed and the house bolted to a concrete slab.

Trailer home roofs have always sucked. Energy inefficient and prone to leaking after a mild hail storm or being walked on. Doing a roof over is normal most aren't that obvious.

I know a family with two holes in their trailer floor. They fixed it by putting a piece of plywood over it. I wonder how often they stub their toe. I knew another family with three holes in the floor. I was too distracted by the crazy family, but there was definitely a board covering the seam between the two halves of their house.

They had at least three smart televisions, though.

Where are our priorities?! We have zero holes in the floor (or wall) and finally got our first smart television in December, which I am using to write this post. Someday I will figure out why it stopped connecting to the Internet. Oh well, I bought it for my computer anyway.

Trailers are two layers of metal sandwiching a layer of some cardboard-like material. :(

Since the topic is Solar-something-something, I'll point to this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7w4rg3UcsgI

Here's the most recent solar bid for my parents:

7.8 kW Solar Proposal
Your Annual Electricity Use 10,680 kilowatt-hours
Annual Solar Production 9,693 kilowatt-hours
20 x Hanwha Q.cell 390-watt mono solar modules with SolarEdge (1) SE7600H-US w/ (20) P400 DC Optimizers

Total System Cost $23,450.00
Oregon Solar Rebate $5,000.00
Utility Incentives $9,000.00
Your Cost $9,450.00 = $1.21/watt

Bid from same company for my house:
7.02 kW Solar Proposal
Your Annual Electricity Use 7,089 kilowatt-hours
Annual Solar Production 7,101 kilowatt-hours
18 x Hanwha Q.cell 390-watt mono split cell solar modules with SolarEdge SE6,000H-US (18) P400 DC Optimizers

Total System Cost $17,306.00
Oregon Solar Rebate $1,404.00
Utility Incentives $2,106.00
Your Cost $13,796.00 = $1.97/watt

Note that my parents is ground mount, and my house is roof mount. Ground mount has higher associated cost due to more extensive racking and concrete pouring.

Do you have a break down on their hourly labor rates, inspections, permit fees, and what they are using for hourly production estimates?

No to everything except they did evaluate hourly production percentage of nameplate capacity based on shading and roof angle, solar hours, etc.

I don't know why, but the industry insists on wrapping everything up into $/watt. It's like an auto manufacturer telling you the price of the car per mile based on an estimated 200k mile lifetime.

The feds like to see that $ per watt number.

If they are a servicer and installer did you ask about a used inverter?

I imagine they won't. But thats why I'm interested. Trying to go used as much as possible.
For them they will say something like "no bc reliability"
But what they actually mean is: "No we make half of our money from upselling."

One of the things these subsidies do is make companies uninterested in competing for the contract. The first guy that came out spent 3hrs talking my ear off, informally quoted a $33k 10.4 kW system, then sent me an email saying they aren't interested in the job. Another outfit 45 minutes away said we were outside their service area. What, do they serve Corvallis only?

One of these subsidies runs out in the middle of this year, and the solar installers will all be fighting tooth and nail for jobs when they have a bunch of idle workers. It's disgusting how Oregon government creates these market distortions just so politicians can pay lip service to "being tough on pollution", and creating x number of "green" jobs (which will more than disappear once the subsidy runs out). I guarantee there was no specific objective laid out when the bill was passed, which should be illegal.

Had the subsidies not been there, the solar companies could enjoy a steady amount of work based on normal demand levels. Instead they spring up while the subsidy is here, and go under once they dry up.

If the government were really interested in efficient use of resources, they would implement tiered pricing so that the first block of electricity consumption was cheap, and each incremental amount gets more expensive. It's progressive too because the poorer people can get cheap electricity for their essential need, and those with more financial means can pay more for the luxury.

Nope, instead we get regressive subsidies that allow relatively wealthy people to pat themselves on the back for being great environmentalists by installing solar in a very poor location, at public expense.

Have you considered Jack Rikard's 'selfish solar' design philosophy?

Selfishly Solar - EVTV Motor Verks

The person in me who refuses to pay others for things I can do myself loves it. But very cost-prohibitive and the ROI gets harder to make work vs net metering. Especially if you're like me and have net metering with peaky production and a lot of under/over shoot.
In the future when the solar tax/ fees go up it might make more sense to go off grid.

Most of your inverter failures are the first year or 2 and then randomly taken out by a lightning strike.
Ideally get one about 3 years old with 7 years of warranty left, for around half the price of a new one.

3 problems with tiered pricing.
It's not a hip, cool buzz word.
It doesn't require other people's money.
It doesn't allow the government to pick winners in the market.

I don't like those DDG links because they usually don't have anything relevant. I just watched part of an ETV episode about a Tesla powered Caddy. Not sure what that has to do with "Selfish Solar", which sounds like something specific, and not related to EVs.

The whole subsidy corruption is what I'm getting at; that elected officials don't really want to solve problems, they want to be perceived to solve problems. Either that, or they are profoundly inept, which isn't entirely unlikely I suppose. Perhaps some combination of ineptitude and corruption?

I do not click on links without knowing what they are. I learned my lesson from Strong Bad--using the Internet irresponsibly since 2000!

I was lazy (it's sunny outside today). Hayden55 posted the relevant link at #34.

With Oregon's net metering law, there's no financial incentive to do selfish solar. You can bank up to 1 years production and true up. Excess is donated for free. Ideally you shoot for 95% of needs and pay our cheap Oregon rates for the 5% supplemental from the grid. You'd over produce in peak summer periods, and underproduce in the winter.

A backup battery is appealing, but then again backup generators are cheap and my parents already have one.

I'd consider selfish solar if there were a financial incentive or power production were more evenly distributed about the year (Hawaii).

As a minor update, the quote for my parents ground mount included panel optimizers, and I questioned why a string inverter wasn't quoted instead. He said that his company tries to be proactive about problems in panel output, and that requires them to have panel-level monitoring. Reading between the words, I believe they are distributors for the optimizer brand, and don't get any cut from selling a string inverter...

...and as I'm typing this they called back. He gave me a legal reason I need an optimizer, and that's because we were planning to trench to the house, then run through the crawlspace to the electric meter at the far end of the house since that's the least trenching and most direct route. Oregon law requires rapid shutdown at the panel if it's on your roof, or enters a habitable building at all.

I could trench around the house to the meter and avoid that legal requirement, but then it's not as direct and involves more trenching and burrowing under a 5' wide concrete pathway.

Pretty much. I think the thing with electric cars is ridiculous as well. Gotta actually pay enough in taxes to get their tax credit. So everyone under 60k+ is **** out of luck.