Need suggestions Gas Water Heater, timers, blankets, most efficient?
 

http://www.gaswaterheatertimer.com/

My folks water heater is starting to leak and is ready to replace, the sad part is that the last water heater they bought was $99

The cheapest hunk I can find now is $209 and the most efficient water heater is $800-1000

Holy crap batman! Talk about inflation!

I am thinking strongly of getting a cheap natural gas unit and coupling it with a water heater blanket and a "timer"
Trouble I see now is that the water heater blankets (for one that isn't a sheet of plastic) seems to be $40 and up, hmm seems like one couple make an R15-R20 for less than that.

Any ideas?

I remember the "worlds most efficient water heater" ad on energetic forums (of all places) and now can't really find good information to compare the different models.

The hyper efficient worlds most efficient was a square heater.

Ah well, I am hoping to find something that is efficient but has a payback period not measured in decades. Even a cheapy with a diy blanket and timer would be nice, too bad the timer is $100 for a servo and timer.

Thanx
Ryan

I got my gas water heater blanket at a garage sale, new in the package for IDK, 50 cents or some such. If aesthetics are not a big concern I'd just wrap it in faced fiberglass batts- heck, they can be much thicker than the store-bought blankets so would probably out-perform them.

A servo would be nice if the scheduled demand for hot water is consistent. I dial mine all the way back to "vacation" as the default setting. Daily I want water hotter than that for the shower so I turn the 'stat up until it clicks (it's very audible) and then turn it right back to "vacation". Due to how 'stats work, if the water is already hot enough it will click off again but if the water is cold enough it will stay on and make a nice batch of hot water. I am not 100% certain but that manually induced on cycle every 24 hours may be the only time in 24 hours the heater fires.

My heater is in the basement and the only thing that would make my system more convenient would be to run a string up into the bathroom (directly above) so I could give it a yank 5-10 minutes before shower time.

Yeah at my own place I turn the temp to vacation in the morning when I"m leaving and back to warm before I go to bed, not the most efficient but better than nothing.

My folks would likely do no such thing but their schedual during the week is very predictable so a timer would be fine.

Ah well

You could do the same thing at shower time as I.

I just moved to a rental house and the water heater and furnace are super inefficient. A guy at work recommended the fiberglass wrap. Has anyone here tried that? How well does it work? I'm considering doing it, and probably turning the heat down as well.

Actually there are 2 key factors, reflective insulation (aka reflects infared) and then the actual R value.

If you don't have a lot of space and are looking for aesthetics fiberglass insulation w/ the flashing on the outside is the best but the cost is now rather high for the savings (AKA $30 on up)

If you do the purpose made wrap make sure the insulation value is AT LEAST R11, lower wraps (like the R3.3 at menards) are not only cheaper but also not very effective.

If you are cheap and can find cheap traditional bats they work almost as well or sometimes better depending on how thick, etc.

My father used to be able to get the "Astronauts" insulation (reflective bubble wrap) very cheap and wrapped the last one in that. It only has an R value of 6ish but because its reflective you get some added benefits, also if you wrap the thing in a special fashion and leave a slight air gap you can get R14 or Higher.

Sadly now days the reflective bubble wrap is very expensive (but you do get a fair amount of the stuff)

Ah well, we settled on a squatty self cleaning unit (because it fits more easily and was on the lower end) Was $359 and we get a whopping 11% off, still a full hundred cheaper than the cheapest but it at least meets needs.

All the water heaters we looked at were only 59% efficient and had a cost of operation of about $277 a year.

I tried to convince my father to get a $600 70% EFF unit but it did not have self clean and was tall (we would have to cut stuff), payback period was a little over 4 years which was reasonable.

The 81% EFF units were all $1000+ (apparently I misread) and required additional "stuff" to function making them a deal killer, payback was poor.

Ah well, so much for appliances getting more efficient over time

I'm not going to be any help to you here, but I have been pondering the water heater question myself. Mine is working fine, but it is a senior citizen in water heater years and I like to plan ahead. I turned it down to 120 degrees and left it there. We always run it dry and I fear I am wasting more energy than if the water was hotter and we only used half the tank. Do you have any insight on the subject?

Yes, you are better off with the smallest water heater you can get away with in MOST circumstances.

Key being smallest in BTUs not necessarily tank size which you can make up for by insulating better. (aka bigger tanks have more surface area generally but less surface area per gallon)

Odd part is a larger tank may not deliver any more hot water for the first hour anyway, so the bigger tank may or may not help, it really depends on use.

I would recommend a better low flow shower head if that is what is running you out and changing habits a bit before getting a larger tank.

Another option is to keep your tanked water heater, keep the temperature low and add an small instant use one to the shower, make sure its the type that actually shuts off when not in use and keep it small as reasonable.
The cost of this "mod" though probably won't save money but may save energy.

Ah well, no good options in my mind, the cost is high and higher and efficiency depends mainly on how you use the tool.

Insulation (as long as you can remove and re-apply to the next heater lasts a lifetime) and is usually a good investment if you will have it for the long term, even if its only saving a few bucks a month.

Another take away is that if you use a LOT of hot water and can't avoid the use, higher end water heaters may actually be worthwhile, you could have to survey how much $$$ your water heater is using in a month (might be hard to do) then figure out what the difference in $$$ is per month on a 61% heater VRS a 81% EFF heater. Trouble with them is that they can break down and likely don't last any longer than a regular heater.

You may also consider a DIY heat exchanger (run the cold water input to the water heater through the drain pipe from the shower) this (properly done) can add 10 degrees onto the incoming water temperature which also reduces how much energy the water heater has to add.

This is my favorite mod from this site, but we have little room at my folks place to put in a grey water tank to heat the lines properly (also the water comes in the house in a rather inconvenient location)

My apt, obviously I can't mod. Sad part is the water from my water heater seems warm enough to shower with even set as low as it goes. (might need a different thermostat)

Ah well.

Good Luck
Ryan

I am, turned all the way down and left that way all the time makes it take a lot longer to get warm water but it turns out the water feels just as warm ???
and perfectly fine for showering ???

Makes no sense. Must just be using more "hot" water but at a colder temperature.

Ah well, I am leaving it that way, I really don't want to have to buy a new thermostat but if I do maybe I just get the timered one.

Ah well.

I thought you turned it up at night and down in the morning.

I turn it up then down all in one swell foop.

I did but then I changed behaviors and found that the water is always warm enough anyway.
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Hmm, it appears that my water heater turns on and off instantly based on the thermostat position.

If i run the heater for 15-20 minutes (I ended up running longer than expected) while taking a shower one day, I can leave the thing off and have warm enough water to shower the next day. Water is on the edge or cold by the day after that if I wash dishes or do anything else.

If I do nothing the water seems to be warm enough after a full 3 days! But apparently not longer.

So it appears that I can keep warm water about 48 hours guaranteed after the burner has been run a while set to the lowest warm setting.

I guess I can tolerate a 15minute burn every other day. :)

Also when I turned the water heater back to vacation (after 20m( it was still running, but quit instantly once turned down,
so for me manual control is the only option,
we shall see if this affects my gas bill significantly (I think it will)

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Anyone have a source of insulation for the cap of a gas water heater? There don't seem to be any available anymore with the cutouts.

Cheers
Ryan

Well an update, I went on 3 days without going off pilot and had a luke warm shower, it was good enough, only had a small amount of dish cleaning, so 3 days is about the limit, will see what its like day 4 :-)

My wife is an uncontrollable hot water user in my house. She isn't happy unless she exits the shower with the skin tone of a boiled lobster. I like my shower at a much more comfortable level. In the past I have taken military showers where I turn the water off while soaping up then rinsing off then getting out. I find that long hot showers are one of the simple joys in life that I don't want to do without. Some things I am willing to pay full price for...a shower is one.

I'm the same way- I like a good hot shower, but would like to reduce my gas bill as well.

I have been turning the water heater thermostat down a bit every day this week, and finally found the point that I can take a shower without turning the cold water on to balance out the water temperature. It's one notch away from "low". Perfect! Now it'd be nice to get some insulation on there to make it run less often.

I was wondering if that was the most efficient point? In my house we mix some cold but empty our hot water heater frequently. I wonder if there is a point where you are better off with hotter water mixed with cold and not emptying the (in my case) 50 gallon vessel? Run all that water out and you end up with 50 gallons of water with a starting temperature of say 50 degrees being heated up to your shower temp.

As with most things I imagine you can go wrong in either direction...I just wonder where that middle ground lies.

One thing I have done is turned off hot water to my bathroom sink. I used to turn it on out of habit but would be finished washing before the hot water got to me. I was basically putting hot water into the pipes and putting cold water in the water heater for no reason.

I grew up in California during a drought and have done "Navy" showers since, but the one thing that my ex-girlfriend did better than me was take short showers.

She smelled clean...

I remember some comedian saying he did not believe that anyone actually got in the shower before turning on the water. I definitely do not like having water hit me like that, but it bothered me to waste water while it is warming up.

So, now I get in first. I usually turn off the water to lather while the water is still cold.

TMI, if you ask me... :)

I think that heating up the water for the rest of the day when you're not showering is probably more of a waste of hot water than it would be to heat up a new tank full, since it's likely going to heat up a tank full anyway. It'll just take time. Maybe you could take a shower at night and your SO could take one in the morning... that way, even with a low heat setting, you'll both have enough hot water.

Another option would be to get a low-flow shower head and set it on the "eco" setting- it will use less (hot) water. I'm trying to get this done but the end of the L pipe that comes out of the wall won't unscrew.

The expensive solution to the "waiting for hot water game" is a recirculation system. My parents have one and it's awesome. You push a button on the wall, wait a minute, and when you turn on the faucet/shower, hot water comes out. Unfortunately I imagine it would be a money- and time-consuming thing to retrofit.

[QUOTE=Sven7;473271Another option would be to get a low-flow shower head and set it on the "eco" setting- it will use less (hot) water. I'm trying to get this done but the end of the L pipe that comes out of the wall won't unscrew.

You push a button on the wall, wait a minute, and when you turn on the faucet/shower, hot water comes out. Unfortunately I imagine it would be a money- and time-consuming thing to retrofit.[/QUOTE]

The reality is hot water takes a certain number of BTUs to heat and a certain number to maintain.

We have full control over the maintain part which is small in terms of cost (timer or intervention)

Only things left are the number of gallons of usage and the efficiency of the water heater.

So a good low flow shower head, even an expensive one that pressurizes with air is well worth it because the single biggest expense is heating water you use. (that literally goes down the drain.)

If you enjoy a hot shower you will find that if you decrease the flow of water (but increase pressure) you will want the water temperature higher. (ask me how I know)
This will increase standby losses but they are very small compared to the cost of heating water down the drain so saving water always trumps temperature.

I don't mind a hot shower on occasion but I treat my hot water heater as something I turn on when I am going to be using it (thanx frank) But day to day, unless I am cold, sick or in the mood a luke warm shower is fine.

In the case of just increasing the water temperature to save hot water this will decrease the amount of hot water used but the cost of heating it is higher and the losses in the hot water pipes become much higher. (also you will have to adjust the temperature as you shower because it will take much longer for the hot water pipes to get up to the full temp) So you will end up spending more but you won't run out of hot water as easily.

Insulation is still very cheap, very worthwhile to insulate the pipes going up to your shower properly and obviously the water heater, this will save money, water and make it take less time to get hot water to the shower. A win win win in my mind.

As for me, I can tolerate lukewarm water 95% of the time but do enjoy a hot shower in the dead of winter, since I can adjust the temperature I will just modulate it when I'm in the mood, I also am going to insulate (R19 on tanks and R6 on pipes) and install a more expensive than normal low flow shower head.

I have a feeling that Iexpedite would benefit from a 70%+ efficient gas water heater but would have to watch payback quickly, plain and simple if you use a lot of hot water you will get a lot more payback, even in the case of my parents its is about $70 a month (and they aren't even that high of useage people) going from the base heater to an 81% EFF condensing model but that is still a payback of 10+ years for them but not if you live outside the midwest and use a lot of water.

Likewise he would GREATLY benefit from a heat exchanger that heats the incoming water, this could easily cut 20% off his bill but he would have to be crafty and build it himself.


Good Luck, I have my solution
Ryan

I estimate my electric hot water usage costs $30. per month. My thermostat tracks my central units hours and I have tested all plug in 110v appliances. I have two months per year with no central unit use and they average less than $70. The plug in 110 stuff costs about $30 per month. That leaves about 40 bucks. The only things I can't test are the cooktop, clothes drier, oven and HWH. I believe the HWH uses the majority of that so I estimate it to be in the $30. per month range. Payback would be a long time in coming on a high efficiency unit. On a side note I have become pretty good at calculating my electric bill based on central unit runtimes.

Tangent follows....I have considered installing a solar HWH. The payback would be terrible, but having warm/hot water during a power outage would be great. My house is completely electric and I worry about long term outages. Before I moved here there was an ice storm that left the area without power for 2 weeks. I purchased a 2000W Yamaha generator for emergency backup. I could have gone larger but if I lose power then many of the local gas stations will too. My genny uses 1 gallon every 12 hrs...that's a requirement I can sustain for several weeks with fuel I have on hand. A larger generator can easily use 10 gallons every 12hrs. For heat I purchased a Kerosene heater and a sealed drum of Kerosene (21 days). I have a camp stove/propane grill/propane buddy heater/propane burner/lanterns and 100 hour emergency candles to round out the cold weather survival plan. Other than heating water on a burner and dumping it into a tub, I have no good way of heating water for bathing.

Interesting you are on the very low end of normal for electric heating, with electric you can fully control your hot water on a timer for little of anything.

And yes on electric and relatively low use it takes forever to pay back (7-15 years)

But a timer pays back right away, because you likely don't need water to be as hot for general dish and cleaning use so you can leave the thing off during those times and still have warm water.

Also a water exchanger would make you run out of hot water less often because fewer BTUS are required to heat the water meaning your water heater would get it up to snuff faster. (also your water heating system COEFFICIENT would improve a fair amount)

Ah well, you are already pretty efficient.

Good Luck
Ryan

I remember my last house with its Lowest Bidder water heater...I ended up-

-wrapping it with so much insulation that I filled the closet it was in

-wrapping all the pipes twice, once with 1 inch and again with 1.5 and Gorilla tape

-turning down the thermostat until it was safe to run Hot only in the showers (having to mix Cold water into your Hot is just plain inefficient), and

-left the heater on all the time with no timer.

Now i'm in a Jayco travel trailer with a 15 gallon gas/electric tank, which I can't insulate further due to the pilot light and internally-routed hoses....so now my routine is-

-hey, I need Hot water! (flip switch on wall)
-wait 10 minutes
-use water, flip switch off

So....sort of timing these days...

After reading this again, I am a bit flustered. Are you saying that to save money, it is smarter to have a low-flow shower head, or a high-flow one?

I understand the theory of a low flow head needing higher water temperature. My water heater is a pain to get to, and I don't want to have to crawl back to light the pilot twice a day, so I just leave it on. Am I better off leaving the old high-flow head on, or turning the temperature up and installing the low-flow head?

It is always smarter to save hot water, so a low flow head will always win even if you have to turn up the temperature a few degrees.

AKA the QTY of hot water is more important than its temp.

But try it as-is with the low flow before messing with the temperature.

I noticed the same thing as the OP about the cost of the hot water heaters has gone to the moon. I am already waiting on the demise of my current water heater so that I can replace it with something far more efficient. In the mean time I had some of that reflective bubble wrap insulation around the house with some of the reflective tape for it and I made a wrap for my water heater and it does seem to help a little, but not enough to write home to mom about! LOL

When I go to replace this heater I will take a look a the latest data comparing the on-demand units with the latest gas tank units that are using timers and electronic ignition systems to only heat water when it is needed. If I were staying in this house longer term I would look for a unit that has the solar hot water feed and look at going that route, but since I don't plan on staying here that will go in my next home. I think the last data I had seen showed that the intelligent tank systems are even more efficient than the on demand systems, but I haven't shopped in a few years so I am not sure if that is still the case or not... Either way it is CRAZY expensive...

Do the tank insulators work? Yes, they do help and it really is a no brainer thing to do. I would just make a blanket yourself. It wasn't hard. Just make sure to stay away from the exhaust, pilot lights and make sure you have plenty of air flow... :-D

Two things I want to add here.

First, back in the 1970's Ohio State University found that water heaters at 115 degrees f were prone to incubate Legionaire's disease. They also found that 120 degrees f would not support the disease. So keep the temp at 120 degrees as a low temp limit.

Second, In Alabama, the power co. (Alabama Power) and the gas co. (Alagasco) have a running feud. The gas co. will give you a gas water heater and install it for free if you currently have an electric water heater. And the electric co will give you an electric water heater and install it for free to replace a gas water heater. So check and see if the same climate exists in your locale.

Legionairs is in every body of natural water and I swim in lakes often, I have yet to contract legionairs.

True your shower vaporizes and spreads it around but if you aren't extremely compromised and sick legionella is in basically everything and few people ever get sick, except again very old, very young and generally people who are very sick.

So I guess thats my way of saying I could care less.

Heating the place will be your biggest expense, so the timer is a very important component.