New to me 1G Insight
 

Just bought my first Insight about a week ago. I’ve had my fair share of Hondas: Acura Legend, CRX Si, CRX HF x2, ’92 Civic Si with a B18C1 ’94 Civic CX, 1991 Civic Si with a B18C5, but I’d always admired the Insight from afar.

I had a few days off so I drove a couple of hours to go test drive one. I wasn’t really serious in spite of the distance covered just to see it, but the guy saw that I was a Honda aficionado and offered it to me the next day for 1650 bucks so I drove back last Saturday with a friend to buy it.


Of course the car has it’s share of typical peccadillos, bad roof paint, bad second-gear synchro, bad LAF sensor, sticky “Trip” button, black wheels, bad IMA battery, but it has tons going for it, namely it’s an Insight, and all of the intrinsic wonderfulness that goes with that. I’ve had a lot of fun reading the journeys of other forum members who’ve fixed up their Insights and wrestled with dead or dying battery packs, so I’ll do my best to work and entertain others who may be considering doing the same.

I’ve had the car for eight days now and haven’t really done anything to it except drive the hell out it, but I have an eBay S2000 steering wheel on the way to replace the tattered original, so there’s a start. Happy motoring!

This is a bit of a superfluous post, but necessary at the same time since I need to have posted five times in order to have picture-posting privileges.

I forgot to add “bad EGR valve” to that list in the prior post, so I’ve ordered all of the EGR and EGR plate gaskets from my local Honda dealer (cash wholesale—sweet!) so I hope I’ll be able to cure the “bucking” and bad off-idle drivability of the engine. My LAF sensor is only a four-wire, for some reason, and obviously that has to be addressed, but I’m a bit light in the funds department after my new Insight and new floor mats and S2000 steering wheel spending spree last week. Just two more posts and I’ll shoot over a few pics.

Sound like you got yourself a (another?) project. Set up a garage entery when you get a chance so we can all see the mpg majic happen.

Welcome to the eco-zoo...what baseline MPG numbers have you found for the vehicle?

While you're waiting for the ERG parts, try unplugging the EGR valve's power. It should stop the bucking, but the CEL will come on eventually. I didn't notice any other issues with mine unplugged, except that mileage may have dropped a tiny bit (hated the bucking so much I decided it wasn't worth it to plug it back in and check).

Congrats on the purchase of your eco-Ferrari!

(Feel free to make dummy posts to get past the link/img posting limit.)

I hope you knew that EGR can also be cleaned rather than replaced. I cleaned both the plate and the valve on my 2000 and it completely cured the bucking/hesitation issue.

You're going to have fun with this car!

EGR system
 

I’m definitely hopeful that I can avoid buying a new EGR valve. I pick up the gaskets and o-rings tomorrow morning, we’ll see what happens.

I’ve only been driving the Insight for eight days now, but it’s already my favorite.

It’s interesting that you liken this car to a Ferrari, I used a similar metaphor when I told a very skeptical friend that in the realm of economical cars, the Insight is a McLaren F1. When I let off the gas in fifth gear and the Insight coasts along, relinquishing it’s forward momentum but only very stingily, the MPH digits unwinding but only at slow intervals--that to me is an awesome experience, but I guess I’m preaching to the choir.

Here ‘tis
 

Unplugged
 

I’ll try that.

Congrats on the Insight. I have yet to nab one up myself. Have fun and let us know how it all goes!

baseline MPG
 

After purchasing the vehicle I drove the Insight from Odessa, TX to Lubbock, TX, about 140 miles and averaged 44.1 MPG. Granted, this was with an EGR-sick engine, a dead IMA no underbody panels installed and with a 73 mph trip average with a peak of about 83mph. My buddy was nice enough to go to Odessa with me, so I wanted to haul ass back to Lubbock so that I didn’t burn his entire Saturday. The thing is a stone and I had to floor it to attempt to maintain 80mph for about half the trip.

I’m hoping to improve significantly upon my first “tankful”. I’ve travelled about 280 miles on my present tankful and my gas gauge registers about one segment above the half tank marker. Am I looking at about a 50mpg average so far? I’m going to resist the temptation to fill it up before it’s nearly empty because there’s a place in town that sells ethanol-free gas and want to see how the Insight likes it, so getting rid of as much of the ethanol-tainted gas as possible is imperative. My unscientific experience with a ’94 Honda CX (my Dad’s car, he’s got a ’94 VX too!) is that that change alone is worth a two mpg jump, from 35 to 37 and I did achieve a single tankful personal record of 40.5 with the CX with the help of 100% gas

floormats, glovebox
 

Installed new floor mats and a new glovebox this A.M. Got it run though a car wash, vacuumed the hell out of it and dropped in the floor mats. Nothing like a nice new pair of floor mats to make the car’s interior feel a little more luxurious.

My floormats are from “GG Bailey” and I got a good deal, $36.58 on Amazon after a $25 buck gift certificate credit. I didn’t want to have to pay 100 bucks for nice, custom mats or get universal, flimsy and gaudy auto parts chain mats either. These fit the bill. They’re 40oz, which means they’re kinda thick and sturdy, and the quality of the carpet is pretty good. The only thing off-putting is that the bottom of the mat is made of closed-cell foam instead of the usual studded rubber or tough textile like you’d find on a BMW factory mat.

Still, for the price, the quality and fitment is very good, though I wish they would have extended the carpet material over the deal-pedal area. But for 36 bucks shipped, I’m happy.

The glovebox door was fractured along the side of the box, so I ponied up 75 bucks for a brand-new one. Wen’t smoothly, except that there was a freaking sheet metal screw installed on the left side. I found a proper 5mm-14 washer bolt and it screwed it in. It seems to be holding. it closes fine except there’s an excessive gap on the upper-right that I could not solve, it’s better than it was, but I”m going to have to wrestle with it later to get it to fit better. Still, the car feels “newer” and nicer. I’m still doing the EGR maintenance Saturday and replacing both o2 sensors while I’m at it. It’s midnight and Photobucket is closed for maintenance, I’ll post pics when it comes back up.

That's quite the baseline. Thanks for showing us how low mpg an insight can get on a trip ;) . You shouldn't have much trouble beating that on your next fill up :)

floormats, glovebox pics
 

http://i789.photobucket.com/albums/y...FD1040260B.jpg

http://i789.photobucket.com/albums/y...B8A9467FDB.jpg

http://i789.photobucket.com/albums/y...74B1968646.jpg

http://i789.photobucket.com/albums/y...868E9E9BDA.jpg


http://i789.photobucket.com/albums/y...E5223A4544.jpg

I should hope so! :D

Once you get lean burn operating properly, 44 mpg will feel like a bad dream.

Aren't you able to reset/view any of the car's MPG meters? There are 4 that you can reset (if the button's working): lifetime; Trip A; Trip B; Segment (FCD button on the dashboard to the left of the steering wheel).

Well, the “Trip” button is sticky, so I’m presently resigned to toggling the FCD button between the lifetime odometer and the segment meter. I’m wary of the accuracy of the MPG meter, because I managed to reset it at my first fill up, and it was a few MPG optimistic, maybe six MPG off? Take that assertion of inaccuracy with a huge grain of salt as I’d only owned the car for ten miles at that juncture and I might have screwed up the reading of the meter somehow, I’ll read up on how to fix my “Trip” button and then earn my chops with this FCD thing.

I’m new, so I thought I’d let you meet the rest of the family.

Here’s the ’91 Si, I drove it to Fort Worth recently, here it is at a rest stop. I averaged 28 mpg for the trip, the Type R gearing working against me--dictating 4200 rpm at 75 mph.

http://i789.photobucket.com/albums/y...1/RestStop.png

http://i789.photobucket.com/albums/y...nzo01/null.jpg

Here’s my ’89 HF, also taken at a rest stop on a road trip, lol! This was my DD until it was stolen in June of ’12, wrecked, then recovered. It hasn’t been driven since though I did drain the gas recently and pump in fresh gas. Runs great but needs bodywork. The car has no backseat, but it's taken a back seat to the other cars, I’m afraid.

http://i789.photobucket.com/albums/y...8f89f6ce-1.jpg

http://i789.photobucket.com/albums/y...1/11df9c82.jpg

I’ll have to split this into two posts, butting up against per post pic limit.

my garage
 

1999 BMW 528i 5-speed. Manages 23mpg city and 30 mpg highway, with a best of 36.1 on a leisurely 56mph run to Fort Worth.

http://i789.photobucket.com/albums/y...nzo01/bmw1.jpg

That’s it for my cars, here are a few of my friend’s:

a 1992 Civis Si, Integra GSR-powered, used to be mine, sold it to a good friend who is a gifted mechanic who still enjoys it, who massaged it into running mid-14’s and yet achieving 36 mpg regularly!

http://i789.photobucket.com/albums/y...1/b8ecb88a.jpg

Here’s my Dad’s collection, twin 1994s, a Milano red CX and a Aztec Green VX. He’s no hypermiler, but he still gets 38 mpg regularly in his VX.
He loaned me the CX for the past 23 months after my HF was stolen. He gets it back now that the Insight is here.

http://i789.photobucket.com/albums/y...1/IMG_0603.jpg

Here’s “Plan G”

http://i789.photobucket.com/albums/y...o01/surly1.jpg

Productive Saturday
 

I work a seven-on, seven off schedule, so every other Saturday, I get to monopolize my good friend and Honda line technician (ok, fine—Honda mechanic) to work on my projects. Yeah, I know, this is in violation of the DIY spirit of this forum but I’ve had three back surgeries and I besides there’s no harm done deferring to expert--at least occasionally, and this guy transcends “expert” into the realm of “bad-ass” mechanic. Follow along and see for yourself.

On to the Insight work.

First came the EGR plate cleaning. Yes, it was pretty clogged up.

http://i789.photobucket.com/albums/y...C688A2DE8E.jpg

http://i789.photobucket.com/albums/y...272377F414.jpg



http://i789.photobucket.com/albums/y...F8B44F8661.jpg

Here ’tis after the can of carb cleaner and scraping and brushing:

http://i789.photobucket.com/albums/y...A875618B83.jpg

(Hmm, looks like I missed a spot—this is why I shouldn’t be allowed to help!)

Then he adjusted the valves.

http://i789.photobucket.com/albums/y...142726F3D5.jpg

Then after that was buttoned up, he removed the EGR valve and cleaned the heck out of it.

A motor oil change (Castrol Edge 0W-20) and new Honda filter and Honda MTF change occurred at this juncture. Incidentally, the MTF change did not cure the second gear downshift crunchiness.

Following this, he swapped out the old o2 sensors for brand-new NTK sensors. The old primary sensor only had four wires and all four were held together with electrical tape. Whatever, it’s fixed.

Then a minor family emergency occurred and I had to borrow his Civic HX (my first time to drive one, I was impressed) to go deal with it (my Dad locked himself out of his VX at the grocery store, lol!)

By the time I got back, this had happened:

http://i789.photobucket.com/albums/y...51C3F5C58F.jpg
Honda S2000 steering wheel!

So at his point I’m dying to take it for a test-drive and to my disappointment, it ran just as poorly as before, bucking even more violently, it seemed.

So he hooked it up the the Honda diagnostic system’s laptop and it shot out a DTC P1491, or "EGR Valve Insufficient Lift Detected”. So we put up tools, grabbed a burger and a beer and he recommended exactly what forum member vskid3 recommended—to unplug the EGR valve. So we left the bar and before I drove off, he unplugged the EGR plug. I’ll be damned! It ran as smooth as glass, with no violent bucking whatsoever when (apparently) entering lean burn mode.

I’ve yet to wrap my mind around why it runs so well with the EGR disconnected, but I’ll figure it out eventually.

In the meantime, does everything I’ve said and done indicate a bad EGR valve and warrant a replacement? My mechanic seems to think so, not that I doubt his assessment.

While the car was hooked up to the Honda Diagnostic System, it spit out a SRS DTC 4-2 or "INCREASED RESISTANCE IN PASSENGER'S SEAT BELT TENSIONER”
Not really sure what that’s about, but my “SRS” light is glowing, and it will get sorted eventually.

I’m very, very stoked that so much got done to my car today, I’m very thankful to my awesome friend—he accomplished all of the foregoing in only three hours! His hard work has only strengthened my affinity for this cool car.

Guess we’ll do a spark plug change and an EGR valve swap two Saturdays from now. Ultimately, I will get the roof painted, arrange a car stereo and last but not least, score a Hybrid ReVolt battery. Stay tuned!

That's a good dent in the to-do list. I'm sure it's way better to drive without the EGR issue.

I forgot to mention that I checked under the passenger-side footwell carpet and have the old 37800-PHM-345 ECM that is subject to Honda’s Service Bulletin 07-038 which condemns the 345 as a “failed part” for misinterpreting sensor inputs and resulting in a false catalytic deterioration diagnosis. The bulletin’s fix is replacement with 37800-PHM-355, so I scored one on eBay. My mechanic did in fact pull an P0420 “catalyst system efficiency below threshold”, so I’m hoping beyond hope that replacing the 345 the 355 will prove that particular DTC false.

51.7 MPG on my first real tankful. I’m very happy with that, all things considered.

New battery
 

Scored a new battery from Hybrid ReVolt, installed it last saturday, no hiccoughs, no hassles whatsoever. It is pretty cool, I’d never driven any Insight before mine and certainly never one with a working IMA. The way the electric motor starts the car and the “Auto Stop” feature were very cool to experience for the first time. But all is not rosy.

My impression is that my ICE is still “sick”. 0-60, even with a full battery is about 21 seconds. My fuel economy is about the same, about 44 mpg. We re-checked the EGR manifold, or plate and cleaned it again. The bad -345 computer was swapped for a -355, and the false “catalytic converter below threshold” (or whatever it’s called) disappeared, which is not what I expected, I assumed my cats needed replacing, in spite of the false bad cat code that the condemned 37820-PHM-345 ECM is notorious for producing, but so far, no cat codes with the new ECM. The ICE still struggles to make power and to drive “normally”, or to keep up with urban traffic, I have to dip into the assist inordinately and therefore it is a struggle to keep my battery from getting depleted quickly under such conditions.

The ECM no longer produces any codes to speak of, but the bucking problem was persistent with the EGR plugged in, and I could have swore that it even bucked once or twice—momentarily, with the EGR disconnected.

So yesterday, I pulled the spark plugs, double and triple checked the gaps and torqued them to 20 pound-feet then checked their orientation in the cylinder or combustion chamber. My head is stamped with three “B”s, and I’m running the 14-buck “B” OEM plugs. If using a clock as a reference, I’ve got two with the ground wire electrode pointing at about nine o’clock and one at about eight-thirty, or for clarification, the open part of the electrodes are at two-thirty and three o’clock. I thought the open part of the electrodes were supposed to point at one or the intake valves, or six o'clock? I squeezed some silicone dielectric grease into the coil boots and swapped all of the coils around randomly before I slipped them back on and put it all back together and then plugged in the EGR valve and took it for a test drive.


The bucking is still present but not persistent. I can actually get it to burn lean without bucking, (yay!) but only with difficulty and only on a level road at no faster than about 44 mph. It still wants to buck more than it doesn’t.

I think I might be on to something. The precise feel of the car and of the bucking changed with the coil swapping, and I sense that I might have a bad coil in spite of there being no misfire check engine code present (should there be?) So I ordered three new OEM Hitachi coils from Rockauto and will score some spark plug shims to experiment with the indexing of the spark plugs and hope that this will help my car’s power, economy and drivability, which all are terrible at present.

My ICE seems to run smoothly, in spite of it’s apparent weakness and tendency to buck, but it does have 240k miles on it. Perhaps a compression check is in order? Any input would be appreciated.

Congrats on the new battery! Matt is a good guy. You may have a clogging cat which would cause these issues or the egr is the majority of it. You can also. Check your vtec gasket

Somehow I missed this thread. Nice cars. Congrats on the battery. Subscribed.

I have car envy. Good snag! I can't wait to see the progress.

My gut tells me that I have deteriorated catalytic converters, but I guess that’s hard to confirm without taking them off, correct? My check engine light is on for what I assumed was my EGR valve being unplugged, but I’ll get it scanned to make sure the cat efficiency below threshold code hasn’t returned. I don’t really mind spending money on new cats, but it would be nice to confirm that they need replacing somehow before I do.

So is there a consensus here on where the ground wire or electrode of the spark plug should be indexed on one of these cars? 12 o’clock? (in other words, that the open, unshrouded spark should face the front of the vehicle?)

I’ll report back after I install the new coils and mess with the spark plug shims.

Thanks for the kind words and encouragement.

I’m checking vacuum hoses to and around the MAP sensor in the A.M.

My uncle had 6 out of 8 bad coils on his 2007 Ford Explorer limited edition, causing annoying losses in power and 'bucking'. He never saw a CEL. Just saying. I'm also really happy this car went to you, it brings a warm feeling to my heart that this car is getting revived by you :D.

Dang, my wife has the same exact car (2007 Explorer Limited V8) and it was bucking during acceleration, so I replaced the coils (about 250 bucks) and the Iridium plugs (about a hundred bucks), and it immediately fixed the bucking.

One of the plugs had nothing left where the cathode should have been.

I replaced the vacuum hoses to and from the MAP sensor and that seemed to help a bit, but not really. I replaced the coils with new Hitachi’s from Rockauto and it seemed to help a bit, especially before the engine got fully warm, but resumed bucking persistently whenever the engine warmed up. Then, I installed some new spark plugs, NGK Iridium from Autozone. Cylinder #1 had to be shimmed 90 degrees, but #2 and #3 had the ground electrode pointing at 10:30 or 11:00 o’clock (open end aimed at number two intake valve at 4:30 or 5:00 o’clock)

Well, I’m happy to report that I can now get it to go into lean burn about half the time, it helps if I turn off the air conditioner. I cruised up and down a long four mile drag with minimal stop signs and a 50mph speed limit
a few times and watched my 300 mile-old tankful of gas’s MPG improve a two or three tenths. I can run an indicated 40mph with the instant mileage at about 110-120 mpg. It will still buck sometimes, but I can, with a little effort, coax it into not bucking—it’s not as persistent as it used to be. It also seems prone to buck if I’m accelerating gently. I’d call it about 40% cured. I’m not getting any check engine codes, but I still have a hunch my cats are bad. Might have to remove them and visually inspect them and possibly clean them, and possibly replace them if they’re really messed up. Failing the cats being the culprit, I’m nearly at wit’s end.

Did you ever replace the EGR valve? Sounds like the cleaning may not have worked on that part. The symptoms you're describing sound like you haven't sorted that out yet. The valve itself could be blocked, or the electrical traces that indicate the valve position status to the computer may be worn out.

Yes, brand new OEM EGR valve was installed, EGR manifold cleaning was done at the same time, then cleaned a second time to no avail. Being that there are no check engine lights being thrown at this point, I’m just sort of guessing at what might be wrong.