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Old 04-24-2018, 02:06 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Stop me if you've heard this before [RCCI]

So you add this carburation system (actually EFI nowadays) to your engine and suddenly you get >50% thermal efficiency (for all load levels) and emissions drop to legal without all the mandated plumbing...

So why isn't this in the Unicorn Corral? Because it is yet another research project on getting gasoline to do "compression ignition", only this time using diesel as a "lighter". Yes, the "engine" listed above is a diesel, and it gets a gas (or E85 or possibly natural gas) EFI system added to it.

I'm guessing the research is pretty far behind Mazda's imminent gas compression ignition system, but the results for low loads (the real Holy Grail) are spectacular. Still, I can't imagine consumers would be willing to deal with more than one source of fuel, but commercial drivers would probably deal with such for 20%+ better mileage (no idea if such vehicles have the "low loads" of cars).

Patents were mentioned, making consumer kits even less likely, so don't get your hopes up at all (although it might be possible for the extremely adventurous ecomodder). No idea how much would be required beyond a full fuel line and a seriously hacked megasquirt (don't expect a stock unit to deal with both EFI and DFI). Presumably the job would involve the combination of fuel injecting a carbed car, a similar effort in E85 (or worse) to a tee-totalling car [fuel line replacement], and reproducing a lot of the research in tuning the beast (no idea how picky the engine is).

One thing that stuck out was the possible use of natural gas. That seems like a no-brainer as a highly available/low cost fuel (probably killed by legal/tax issues). I'm guessing E85 would work best for hacked consumer engines thanks to reduced heat issues (the engine is *not* going to want to get any hotter).

Sounds a bit late for VW to fix their cars, and I can't imagine the cost of having a VW certified tech doing all the work needed.

(engineering explained, where I saw it Sunday).

http://www.w-erc.com/services/rcci/ (probably the patent consortium)
https://www.warf.org/media/portfolio...-B-HighRes.pdf


Last edited by wumpus; 04-24-2018 at 02:14 PM.. Reason: added links (removed redundant link).
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Old 04-24-2018, 03:21 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Boom.

The question is...at the right time?

BTW, sounds a lot like what they use propane for. Better combustion, lower emissions, better milage claims, etc.
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Old 04-24-2018, 03:57 PM   #3 (permalink)
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My question is, what's stopping them from introducing compression-ignited gasoline engines?

Direct injection is a thing. Injection pressures for gasoline are WAY up there in GDI engines. So we can introduce the kind of fuel induction that diesels already rely upon. We can dictate exactly when the fuel-air charge begins to combust by simply introducing fuel at that time. Is it still detonation when the amount of fuel detonating is only the itty-tiny little droplets that first enter the chamber? Is that even something to worry about?

I'm asking the question for real, can someone tell me what the tripping hazards are with this?
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Old 04-24-2018, 08:05 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Mazda is. They call it HCCI. Then again, I'm not sure we're allowed to buy new cars and still post on this board...

I think it is scheduled to be introduced next year. Except that it only does compression ignition under pretty specific conditions (hopefully low-load, as that is what ordinary engines spend most of their time and completely fail at). Their best numbers approach this (and that is for an engine that will likely ship, not a reseasrch mule), but hardly accross the range like this one does (granted it needs a truck-style transmission, as all research was done at 1800rpm).
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Old 04-25-2018, 02:37 AM   #5 (permalink)
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Cng injection in a diesel does sound a lot like this.

Mazda is doing pre injection to an afr of 37, then other injectors do their magic.


On a modern diesel there are several injection events, the very small one to warm up the chamber (way before tdc) worries me a bit.

Besides that i am sure tuning would be able to handle the rest.
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Old 04-25-2018, 10:30 AM   #6 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elhigh View Post
My question is, what's stopping them from introducing compression-ignited gasoline engines?
From my reading, it's because they're almost -- but not quite -- ready for prime time.

EG, from a press review of Mazda's HCCI demo vehicles that they invited journalists to try recently:

Quote:
Yes, there is still a bit of ‘pinging’ (also known as ‘pre-ignition’ or ‘knock’) in certain types of operation, but Mazda feels they will have this ironed out before production starts next year.
This written by an engineer who is also an autojourno.

https://www.thestar.com/autos/opinio...echnology.html

So, it sounds like "consumer acceptance" issues remain (ie. ironing out the bugs/transitions) so it's as seamless as possible.
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Old 04-25-2018, 10:42 AM   #7 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wumpus View Post
I can't imagine consumers would be willing to deal with more than one source of fuel
Well, diesel owners are (were?) apparently willing to fill the urea tank to keep emissions low.

A Nissan Micra (March) owner from Brazil posted a photo on the Micra forum of his ethanol-fuelled car with a small auxiliary petrol tank necessary for cold starts (the car automatically switches between fuel sources as needed).

Odd location of the tiny tank, accessed under a flap in the cowl at the base of the windshield:



As to whether people would learn to fuss with 2 fuel sources, it all depends on how painful it is to stay with one fuel source!
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Old 04-25-2018, 04:10 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Thumbs up This is cool stuff, been around a number of years!

Oh, wow. There's a ton of info around on this, been around for a number of years. I've been following the development for a while now. I forget who the lead researcher is on the project, but he's a reasonable guy and actually answered the e-mails from an overenthusiastic hobbyist technological tire-kicker a few years back!

Reactivity-Controlled-Compression-Ignition is what the RCCI stands for, if you didn't want to watch the video. The gist of it is, they combine both a relatively high octane (low reactivity) and a relatively high cetane (high reactivity) fuel to produce a mixture that ignites with the correct delay, given the current running parameters inside the engine. Early versions used two separate fuel injection systems - one direct for the high reactivity fuel, and one port for the low reactivity fuel. The next step was coaxial direct injection for the fuels.The latest is a single "correct reactivity" fuel, basically switching over to HCCI entirely. IIRC about 75 octane was the choice fuel. Some really impressive results, for sure!

From a combustion dynamics standpoint, the initial lean homogenous low-reactivity fuel/air mixture gets heated up during the first part of the compression stroke. A shot of high-reactivity fuel is fired in and starts to mix and react, creating some interesting mixtures. Then one or more later injections provide the bulk fuel and "kick things off", not sure in what order. By varying the mix of which fuel is injected, how much, and when, they can vary the reactivity of the mixture in the cylinder as it is being compressed in the cylinder, with the goal of having it "go off" at the appropriate point before top dead center for best efficiency. They've got to be careful to keep BMEP from being too excessive, though - basically you can make these things chew themselves to bits with detonation if you get the timing wrong and/or get the reaction rate too high. I think that last little spray of high-reactivity fuel gives the "kernel" to start the flame front moving swiftly through the all ready to go mixture, without over-compressing a bit in a corner and making it go bang, causing knock.

It's unfortunately a bit more complicated than just strapping on a separate port fuel injection system to an existing diesel engine - you need to have full control over both systems and be able to vary the injection timing and pulse-width for multiple injections from both systems.

Do note that this is not entirely unlike the various "fumigation" systems that are available for diesel engines, using CNG (pilot gas ignition - common for burning "sour gas" from landfills), LPG (common for power boosts on trucks), and methanol/water injection (common for tractor pulling). It's just quite a bit more sophisticated on the programming end.

I have actually found a few papers, IIRC from India, detailing adding a carburetor to a mechanical diesel engine and basically having the engine suck in varying A/F ratios of gasoline (all quite lean). Might even have been an IDI engine. It ran, and I don't recall them saying anything about blowing up an engine.

That said, it probably would not be beyond a dedicated tinkerer to set up a system to work really well in a relatively narrow RPM/power band, ideal for pulse/glide or hybrid setups. Their most impressive thermal efficiency in the dual-injection system used direct injected E85 with port injected biodiesel.

Poke around on the web using RCCI as your initial search string, and you'll eventually unearth enough papers so you get actual injection timing information and the test engine being used. Someone skilled in the art (dedicated tinkerer) could extrapolate from those to get a given engine running in the sweet spot, most likely.

The killer preventing this particular technology from being attractive to take to market so far is the dual (gotta use both diesel and gas) or "different from current" (where do you buy 75 octane? Mixing diesel and gas in one tank is dangerous, best to get a commercially prepared fuel with the right vapor pressures, etc.) fuel requirements to make it work. The dual-fuel version could probably be commercialized as a "diesel primary" type, with backup operation running on diesel alone at reduced power and efficiency, but it's a lot of extra fuel injection and plumbing hardware and an extra gas flap, etc. for a driving market (USA) that already shuns putting E85 into flex-fuel vehicles and rarely plugs in the various PHEV's.

The points that MetroMPG brings up about Brazil's little gasoline tank for cold starts and the "but people seem to use DEF ok" for modern diesels point to a way forward, but this system requires quite a bit more of the "other fuel" than either of those approaches. You don't just occasionally fill up the little tank with a gallon jug of X. You fill two tanks about half the size of your current fuel tank (or a bit smaller) every time you fill up. Two hoses, two gas flaps, two knobs, two card swipes, etc.

A new low-octane fuel seems a better bet. Maybe E85 and diesel can mix well enough without making explosive fuel vapors that a blender pump could do it, though I bet you'd want a dedicated hose! Getting a hose-full of 75 octane mix in your small "obligate E85" converted motorcycle could really ruin your day...
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Old 04-25-2018, 04:16 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cajunfj40 View Post
You fill two tanks about half the size of your current fuel tank (or a bit smaller) every time you fill up. Two hoses, two gas flaps, two knobs, two card swipes, etc.
Great point. Quite different from DEF & "starter fluid" tanks.
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Old 04-26-2018, 12:47 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Iveco tried a similar setup with ethanol instead of gasoline some years ago, and MWM (currently owned by Navistar) has developed dual-fuel versions of the 229-series engines (at least in 4-cyl and 6-cyl versions) which relied on mechanical direct injection for both the regular Diesel fuel and the ethanol. Apart from some tractors, Ford has used it in some trucks meant to operate at sugarcane plantations.


Quote:
Originally Posted by MetroMPG View Post
A Nissan Micra (March) owner from Brazil posted a photo on the Micra forum of his ethanol-fuelled car with a small auxiliary petrol tank necessary for cold starts (the car automatically switches between fuel sources as needed).
Just to remind, it's a flexfuel, not a dedicated-ethanol, even though the dedicated-ethanol cars in Brazil retained a small auxiliary gasoline tank for cold starting. I'm just not sure if the March retained this auxiliary tank in later versions or if it now resorts to a heated fuel rail like the Sentra.

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