News flash! OEM electric cars suffer reduced range in cold weather too!
 

http://ecomodder.com/forum/attachmen...1&d=1259685863

It's not just us low-tech DIY electric car drivers experiencing reduced winter performance from our lead acid machines. Some blog-happy BMW Mini-E owners are seeing & reporting the effects too.

I saw this headline and laughed out loud:

Who chilled the electric car?

Aside from the fact they should win an award for the clever title, I have several problems with the language in that article. Permit me to digress from the actual topic at hand while I enumerate them.

First, is 87.8 miles "just over" 80 miles? Sheesh, indeed.

Second, if your car gives you multiple separate warnings that it is about to run out of "fuel", is it fair to say it "broke down" when you keep pressing on? If you drive a regular ICE car out of gas, did it "break down"?

BMW is undoubtedly learning some really interesting things from having these cars in the hands of "regular" drivers. (Of course early adopters don't really even count as "regular drivers."

Two related blog posts from Mini-E owners experiencing cold weather performance drops:

1) Towed! After only 87.8 miles… Sheesh! My Year with an All-Electric MINI

The guy is used to getting 100+ miles in warm weather. The most interesting thing is the driver thought there was something wrong with the car (in terms of range reduction indicating a fault of some kind). Seems a bit of physics education is in order.

2) Robert's MINI E Field Trial: Cold weather Range Anxiety

"Well after over 4 months of driving, I was feeling like I understood my Electric MINI E ... But my sense of normality has been shattered in the last week as Temperatures have plummeted, so has My MINI E's range."

May I suggest: :D

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b2...roSpecs034.jpg

From: http://ecomodder.com/forum/showthrea...tml#post147243

LOL! I read the post and links before I got to the picture! I really didn't expect that! Boy, those Mini-E guys are real noobs. I'd figure only enthusiasts would pony up that kind of cash for an electric, but I was wrong. You're right though, I guess it really is best if a Joe Public with no idea about electrics gets them to iron out all the kinks. They really do push them to the limits without having a clue about battery basics: car sat outside, uncharged, before a freeway speed long trip. I like the comments "I slowed all the way down to 60"!!! I would kill to GET to 60, much less cruise there:p
And as a comparison, back in the early 90's when I bought my new Festiva, I had a very similar experience with mileage when California switched to Ethanol gas: that usual $5 that I put in was not going nearly as far as what it was during the "non-ethanol" months to the point where I was seriously wondering what was wrong with the car. Took me a while to figure that one out....

Even on the west coast the slightly cool weather creates havoc on batteries. Range was poor for me with the extra battery, but it would not hold a charge in November and went 'dead' in December. It is way above freezing with cloudy skies right now; and I have a big yellow paperweight in my garage.

Well, time and time again, idiots blame equipment for the user's stupidity, and then insist that the stupidity is justified and not in need of correction.

According to the Nissan Leaf website:

Nissan LEAF Electric Car | Nissan USA Official Site


Q:How does driving in cold weather effect[sic] the performance and battery life?

A:Cold weather does not directly affect driving range. Your driving habits and patterns and accessory use (including heat and a/c) all play a role in driving range.

Please note: I did not spell "affect" in the question above, I just cut and pasted. I notice a lot of the questions are grammatically incorrect;). Of course, there are three "ands" in the answer, and punctuation.....ah never mind:p

Actually, Affect is the correct term there.

If you believe that something in your C&P is incorrect, you usually include [sic] after the word or thing, to let people know that it's there from being quoted, not because you're an idiot. (Not calling you an idiot, it's the best way to explain it.)

Yeah, I know it's affect, but that's not how they wrote it. They wrote "effect". Anyway, since we're on the subject, I always thought [sic] stood for "spelled in context", which, in this case, would be what I did. In fact, [sic] is simply latin for "thus". You probably already knew that, I just thought I'd throw that out there...:D
I thought using [sic] would be too hoity-toity, but it would have been the proper way to do it. Anyway, I informed Nissan that I am willing to test their vehicle for free.....:p

Hey, I added the [sic]!!!HAha!!
And HAPPY NEW YEAR!!!

Ah, I misunderstood.

And yea, I knew that. :P

I know a little bit about Latin, only because of "other" studies I've been doing over the years. I don't study foreign languages.

I can only imagine the number of cars you would see dead on the side of the road, if every car in the Washington DC area was a pure electric with a range of 100 miles under ideal conditions.

Best way to practice that kind of limited range driving strategy would be to only put enough gas in your car to travel the same distance. Carry some more fuel in a extra gas can, and figure every time you had to add gas it would be a tow bill, roadside charge of the battery, or some other form of replenishment, with up to 6 hours waiting time.

Not saying it is impossible, but certainly for the average key in the ignition and go motorist, it will be a long time before any electric vehicle replaces IC, if ever.

Of course the car companies would be tickled pink if you just bought two cars, on for local driving and another for the highway. I know there are other solutions, but when you get into millions of drivers in a small area, which of them is really practical and cost effective?

regards
Mech

O RLY?! :eek: Nissan needs some edumacation, methinks!

Either that or I want some of their magical engineering:

• so my car's drivetrain lubricants never change viscosity, increasing rolling resistance;
• so my tires never stiffen in the cold, increasing RR;
• oh, and I want their magic, energy-neutral external air warmer so fluid density and aero drag remains constant year round.
• And let's not speak of the effect of temperature on battery performance... unless of course they've got heaters/coolers that run 100% of the time the car's plugged in... which they just might.

Mech: I love the idea of training people with their ICE cars, one gallon at a time! That's inspired.

I have to admit I am a bit pissed at the guy and I have been thinking about what comment to leave on his blog. He does not seem to understand the current limitations of an EV. I think he is giving EV's a bad name by expecting them to perform like an ICE. I would love to have a car like that but it does seem a bit pricey. He seems to be paying $612/month but I have read other people say they are paying as much as $923/month.

He is also saying that at $2.55/gallon it is about the same cost to run an ICE mini. Someone check my math because he might actually be right. I thought it was considerably cheaper to run an EV.

Assuming $2.55 USD/gallon and 18cents/kw (his numbers) and 400 whrs/mile to run the car ?

to go 100 miles- 100x400 wh/hr = 40,000/1000=40 kw x .18 = $7.2

to go 100 miles- 100/30mpg - 3.33 gallons x $2.55 = $8.5

I am suprised. I guess it is a combination od expensive electricity and cheap gas. Here in Ontario we pay %50 more for gas and %50 less for electricity so I guess it makes more sense here.



Edju's MINI E Journey aka Honest-E Blog of MINI PIG #017

For the average family, 2-3 or more cars is already a reality. How difficult would it be to replace one of them with an EV?

Making me feel guilty: 2 saved "throwaway" cars, a 3-wheel EV, and a hybrid (pedals/36V motor) recumbent trike. :D

Dude... Don't feel guilty.

2000 Dodge Caravan
2001 Saturn L200
1997 VW Golf
1978 Honda Twinstar CM185T
1996 GSX-R 600
1991 Geo Storm
1997 Toyota Tacoma
1988 CR-X HF (shell, garbage)
198x AMC Eagle 4x4 Sedan.

There are more, but those are the ones I have titles to... except the Gixxer.

First you need a 220 outlet. Then you need 30+ thousand dollars, which is what it cost me for all 3 of my cars, with the majority of that money spend on the wife's Rogue. Then you need to pay the property taxes on the total number of cars you own.

After the average family has met those criteria, then you need someone to make sure it is charged. You need a daily mileage routine that guarantees you never need to travel more than 100 miles a day MAXIMUM under ideal conditions. No emergencies, or other over the mileage budget reasons to drive it until the battery is dead.

Then you need to calculate the total cost of ownership and see if there is any real benefit to ownership, including the always deteriorating and exorbitantly expensive battery to consider, unless you are paying a monthly lease on that battery.

For some, maybe even many of the "average people" this may be practical. I just don't see it as a solution for the average motorist. I know my wife would never tolerate the additional demands of an electric car, even though she only uses an average of 8 gallons a week of fuel in her Rogue.

I think Nissan quoted their estimated cost per mile to be 6.5 cents, but I don't think that included the battery. The battery alone could set you back another 10 cents a mile, which makes it much more costly than either of my cars. Also add depreciation to the equation and the cost per mile gets pretty high.

Centuries and billions of battery development and we still are not there as far as a practical replacement. Think 12,000 miles a year, or 120 full cycles of the battery, or 240 50% cycles, but then you get into climate conditions shortening the cycles, as well as the reduced battery capacity, over time, that still falls into the "acceptable'" category.

The shrinking fuel tank syndrome, every winter, and year after year your useable range is reduced.

Now has anyone here driven a pure electric car 100,000 miles in the last ten years. I would sure like to read about the total cost of ownership for a 10 year 100k mileage period.

Now I do own 3 cars for my family, and one of those could be an electric car and it would be practical for us in our situation. Pop already told me he would buy a Leaf when they become available but he only drives about 4k a year, and it would be perfect for him, because he keeps his car in a garage and has 220 right where the car would sit.

Even though I can afford to buy a 30k electric car, and even though we could incorporate a limited range vehicle into our routine and it would be practical, it would not reduce our total cost of ownership, and in fact would significantly increase that cost.

Now, if you can get the range to 200 miles, and the cost of ownership comparable to a conventional sedan of equal size and versatility, then I would probably be waiting at the dealership with a check in hand.

Right now we drive about 2500 miles a month total, and it cost about $200 per month in fuel.

I do believe that the Leaf, with a 100 mile range will sell, especially to those urban dwellers that don't drive more than a few thousand miles a year and have the power accessibility, and probably would keep the car in a garage. I don't really call that average. How many here would consider a 30k car with a 100 mile range?

regards
Mech

I bought an 89 Ford Festiva new. It was the first, and last, new car I will ever buy. I can build one heck of an electric for 30K, but I digress. I'm so far removed from the typical American mindset, that it's hard for me to address such a question, but I would think that the average person who has several new cars and changes cars like underwear every three years (yes, my underwear is 40 years old:p), would not find 100 mile limitation any worse than a lack of GPS, or OnStar, or whatever new-fangled "gotta have" trinket is in cars these days given the fact that the majority of drivers drives 40 miles a day. Also, if they find the limitation annoying, it's no biggie: they'll just trade it in for another ICE. Hmmmm, maybe my EV #3 should be a $500 EV with a 200 mile range. Let's see, pickup, used golf cart batteries......:thumbup:

The problem with the expectation of a 200 mile range and so on, so forth, is that it's simply not necessary for most people.

I live in the country, and I don't normally drive even 50 miles at a time. The longer trips, granted, can be over 200 miles at times, or even more.

The largest percentage of people could benefit from using a mild EV that DOESN'T cost 30k. In fact, the average suburbanite could do a large percentage of their commuting in a golf cart. A Golf Cart.

The problem isn't with the cars, it lies in the perception of the people who are considering them.

PS - I put close to 15,000 miles on Cara (will have by next month, it's 1 year anniversary with me). And the largest percentage of that was long trips, based on mileage. However, the shorter trips made up the bulk of start/drive/stop cycles, and I could have saved plenty of fuel if I'd been legally able to operate one of the Golf Carts up the road to make those trips.

I mean, a 15-20 minute trip to Wal-Mart, and it's 11-14 miles away, depending which direction I go, even having a 50 mile range would be sufficient, and using a separate smaller pack to provide heat during the winter months for the return trip from the store.

I'm not the type of person who buys a new anything, so I can't comment on the 30k EV thing, but it will eventually become much less a matter of creature comforts, and much more a matter of whether or not you can afford to drive your gasser over the EV you had the chance to buy, for many Americans.

Personally, my first, and possibly my only EV, will probably end up being a Golf Cart, converted to road use, if I can find one. I've weighed the benefits and drawbacks of converting other things, and after costs associated, I'm still better off using something purpose built in my situation.

Regarding cost of batteries and operation, etc... nothing's perfect when it's first introduced, and the first users often subsidize further users' purchases. That's how it's always been.

Where did Nissan estimate the cost? The only thing I've seen is a unadjusted combined rating of ~225Wh/mile. At 11c/kWh (U.S. average IIRC), that's ~2.4c/mile. To put that in perspective, a Prius gets ~70mpg combined w/o adjustment, so that's ~4.3c/mile. Battery costs also aren't ~10c/mile unless the owner has the pack replaced at ~90% capacity. In low volume over the counter they're about the same per mile as electricity if replaced at 70% capacity. An OEM can get lower prices, but they'll also charge more for a new pack so I figure ~3+c/mile is reasonable for the pack given a reasonable (uses something like the Leaf for ~50+ miles round trip worst case) driver.

While I agree that the costs of low volume EVs probably don't justify their purchase versus an efficient hybrid, given the difference in maintenance costs, especially as the mileage starts approaching ~150k+, I think they'll also be pretty close in terms of the average cost per mile once everything is factored in even w/ a ~$10+k premium. In mass production, they'll probably be better than a comparable hybrid, although the market will probably be limited since a 5c/mile difference probably isn't enough to warrant the lower range and longer refueling times for most IMO.

Some people speak of the long commute they have... I have just the opposite - a very short commute. The distance is ideal for an EV, but short enough that it would probably cause damage to a typical IC vehicle.

(I used to ride a bike to work, but got tired of being run off the road by drivers that haven't had their AM coffee or are too busy chatting on their cell phone. Oakland ain't exactly bike-friendly to begin with...)

My commute is just under five miles at city speeds. My monthly miles on the Citicar are relatively low (200 + miles if I'm at work every day) but the avoided use of my gas guzzler (a Prius) keeps it in better shape - the Prius has become my weekend car. Once the warranty runs out I may consider making it a plug-in.

If only operated a short time, an IC engine doesn't really warm up - not enough time on the road to remove water vapor in the engine oil, exhaust condensate, etc. I've heard (but don't have any real data) that IC vehicles need to run at freeway speeds for more than 30 minutes to fully de-condensate.

The few IC cars that I see drive this short distance are still spitting water out the exhaust when they are parked. Condensate probably contributes to premature engine wear and exhaust / catalytic converter rust-out. Good for the dealer/mechanic, but bad for the IC vehicle owner.

A 5-10 mile commute may be a relative rarity, but probably about as common as those with a 100+ one-way commute...

Even Tesla admits range suffers in the cold, AND they keep their battery toasty.

They posted a blog about a Roadster road trip from California to the Detroit Auto Show, and when they started hitting the cold weather, they stuck snows on it and kept going.

And then they deliver this head-slapper:

Between Nissan's "no, cold doesn't affect EV's!" and Tesla's apparently road-grime-aerodynamically-impaired Roadster, you have to wonder if anyone technical ever vets these things.

GM is speaking the truth as well:

From a car rated for 40 miles. Source.

Could Lutz ever get the 40 mile EV range out of the Volt? :)

Ha! Excellent point.

When the outside temperature is in the triple digits it might get outstanding mileage! :D

Wouldn't triple digits be too hot?

Hence my long-time reluctance as a frozen northerner to jump on the electric bandwagon. That batteries suck in cold has not been a secret.

Just makes sense to me :cool: If batteries get half their output at half the temp. normal output at normal temp, then you may go twice as far in HOT weather (until all the soldered connections melt!) :D

Ok, so tongue in cheek, then. LOL.

I wonder at what point the ambient temp + battery temp = nuclear fusion?

Imagine the range you'd get out of that!

Yet another EV maker claiming cold is no big deal - this time Daimler with their Smart EV:

Maybe he was hedging his statement by qualifying that running just the heater is not a big deal in its individual contribution to reduced range & performance in the winter! It's just one negative factor among many negative ones. :)

That article implies that the pack (in fact the entire interior) is heated or cooled during the charging process as needed.