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-   -   NGK Platinum vs NGK Iridium? Worth it? (https://ecomodder.com/forum/showthread.php/ngk-platinum-vs-ngk-iridium-worth-4037.html)

rjacob 07-24-2008 04:47 PM

NGK Platinum vs NGK Iridium? Worth it?
 
I have read on the net that iridium spark plugs can improve FE. Replacing worn spark plugs of any kind can improve FE. But will iridium spark plugs give better FE than platinum plugs? By how much? I think a set of 4 platinum plugs runs about $10. I think a set of the iridiums will run $30-$40. Are they worth the extra money?

Lazarus 07-24-2008 05:04 PM

If your ignition system is in good shape(wires, coils) I don't think a plug will make a noticeable difference in MPG. I've tried self modifed NGK(kind of like the E3 plug) and Halos and have never seen an increase in FE.I alway go back to just the basic NGK and index them.

I think the only difference you'll see between the two is in how long they last.

dann_04 07-24-2008 06:34 PM

In sohc engine i saw an increase when going from copper to platinum(autolite, in my escort i saw a 10% increase(30mpg to 33mpg with only thing different plugs and i had done a tune up 10k before with copper)). In dohc enignes and motorcycle/scooter engines i have seen an increase by going to ngk iridium plugs. In the bikes the electrode doesn't dirty ecause of how small it is, each spark cleans off the end so they run alot better than standard large electrode plugs. Check ebay, i got 4 ngk iridiums for about 22 shipped.

Daox 07-24-2008 09:42 PM

I'd agree with Lazarus. Platinum and Iridium plugs are mainly there because they last longer, not because of higher performance. IMO check your plugs more often and stay with the cheaper copper.

cfg83 07-25-2008 02:18 AM

rjacob -

I have Denso Iridiums and I like them. When I first started hypermiling, I got my best MPG after installing them (up to that point). However, that could have been an "MPG bump" from just changing the plugs.

Also, saturnfans.com overwhelmingly recommends OEM plugs for my Saturn. If I were you, I would go to a Honda Civic forum that specializes in your generation of Civic to find out what works for them. This will give you an "informed baseline" for your drivetrain.

Hmmmm, I think I've had them for betwen 45K and 60K miiles. Maybe it's time for a new set.

CarloSW2

Blue Bomber 07-26-2008 01:46 AM

Spark plugs are all about conducting electricity between a gap to ignite the air/fuel mixture. The better spark you get, the more complete burn you get, and the more power you get out of the fuel you're using (and less emissions, too). To get a better spark, you need to use a good conductor. Copper is one of the best conductors available for spark plugs, and is dirt cheap, though it has pretty short life span. Nickel and platinum aren't that great, and are only used by manufacturers because of their extended life span.

Iridium is the best of both worlds. Even though iridium itself isn't the best conductor, it's extremely hard. It'll last the longest of any spark plug tip material (some are rated up to 100K). Being so hard, the tip can be made to a fraction of the size of a normal one. This creates a very concetrated spark in comparison, which easily negates the lower conductivity of the metal. Iridiums are know to ignite lean mixtures that other plugs can't, which would definitely help fuel efficiency.

I had an 86 Celica GT-S, and it ran horribly on NGK coppers. Tossed in some Denso Iridiums, and it ran like a champ. Not sure what was wrong with the car, but it really liked iridiums. I'm running NGK Iridiums on my current MR2 Turbo, and it likes them just as well. :)

Kaneda 07-26-2008 03:34 AM

i found these... PulstarTM Pulse Plugs - OFFICIAL SITE - Fight back against the high cost of fuel, improve your car’s performance, and help reduce greenhouse gas! they seem ok but i havent done any other research on them yet. just thought i'd share

cfg83 07-26-2008 03:47 AM

Blue Bomber -

You made my Google :

Iridium spark plugs by NGK and Denso
Quote:

Service life of some OEM Iridium spark plugs can be as much as 120000 miles with very little degrading of performance in that lifespan. NGK Iridium IX types have a centre electrode tipped with Iridium alloy with a 0.6mm diameter. NGK believe this gives the optimum balance between performance and service life. Service life estimates can be up to 60000 miles for normally aspirated car engines and up to 20000 miles for motorcycles - this is extremely subjective though, a high revving motorcycle or extremely modified car engine will most likely wear plugs out in a few thousand miles.
Soooooo, it looks like I don't need new plugs for maybe another 50K miles, ;) .

CarloSW2

ShadeTreeMech 06-07-2009 11:28 AM

Others have touched on this point, but I'm wanting to clarify it a bit.

Because of the metal in the electrode, there is fewer volts required to create a spark, and so for the same amount of power, you should get a hotter spark. A simple copper electrode cannot possibly hope to do that.

I'm hoping this bump will override the discussion on plug indexing, which sounds more like a sale for snake oil.

BigGreenie 06-06-2011 12:58 PM

This is very interesting. I have know clue that spark plugs could have such an impact on gas mileage. And here I have been buying the cheap ones, because I didn't think it would matter. I really appreciate the information here in this thread. I have learned a great way to help cut back on my gas mileage. Thank you.
I am looking for a good delay timer switch, can someone recommend one?

fdhj324 01-23-2012 12:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blue Bomber (Post 47761)
To get a better spark, you need to use a good conductor. Copper is one of the best conductors available for spark plugs

Sorry, but I came across this in a Google search and it is complete nonsense. The resistivities are Platinum = 1.06×10^−7 Ωm vs Copper = 1.68×10^−8 Ωm.

The total resistance of the copper/platinum/iridium conductor is maybe billionths of an ohm. Meanwhile, it's in series with the spark plug wires, which typically have a resistance of 10,000 to 15,000 ohms. So you're talking about a difference between 10000.000000001 ohms and 10000.000000006 ohms. The difference between the conductivity of copper and platinum is totally irrelevant, and couldn't even be measured.

Platinum is used because it's more durable, not because it's a better conductor. (Same for gold-plated audio cable connectors, incidentally.) This allows it to be made into a narrower electrode without eroding away as quickly as copper would, to make it sharper (higher electric field strength = easier to arc), and to absorb less heat.

ShadeTreeMech 01-23-2012 02:25 PM

the only advantage I can think of of iridiums is the possible longevity of iridium vs platinum vs copper. Some cars require an act of congress to change the plugs, and for not needing to change pugs for 100k miles, I would gladly pay more. That and the iridiums/platinums are supposed to give a stronger spark when worn out compared to same miles of copper plugs.

mwebb 01-23-2012 11:17 PM

nonsense
 
as a long time scope guy , i will say most
(but not all)
of the info in this thread is pure nonsense

what is true is that copper plugs do not last as long as the others
unless
the engine is using a wee bit of oil
then
all three last about the same amount of use / miles

platinum plugs tend to foul easier and stay fouled once fouled
iridium are not much better

copper is the cheapest and electrically the best of the lot , but

the spark plug that was designed for the system by the engineers who designed the system is always the best choice for that particular system

use the OEM recommended brand and part # ONLY for best results

if any one of you can post a scope waveform showing any inaccuracy in this post
do it now -
allow me to save you the trouble
there is no waveform that will invalidate this post

stop this nonsense - use the OEM recommended spark plugs only.
there is no super plug , only snake oil .

or spend the dollars , acquire the skill and learn about ignition , then with your new skills and equipment , out engineer the engineers who designed your system - rots a ruck with that .

http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2236/4...ffbe8a7ea1.jpg

http://farm5.staticflickr.com/4120/4...dde908b0_b.jpg

http://farm2.staticflickr.com/1401/4...35fc6ae7_b.jpg

http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2580/3...3336d865_b.jpg

the last image shows a "bad " secondary spark waveform 1st caused by leaking valve , 2nd secondary spark waveform is a "good" waveform ,2 cylinders of 8 culled from a much larger file using a high resolution scope .

you can not fool an ignition scope
there are no better spark plugs than those the system was designed around

do not attempt to out engineer the engineers
unless you enjoy chasing your own butt .



Phileaux 03-30-2012 02:22 AM

Mwebb,
So you have the OEM: tires, filters, dealer supplied fluids in your car?? Unfortunately, vehicles are designed by engineers but built by business men. When CompanyX needs tires for 400,000 vehicles they get bids for the lowest cost option that satisfies the minimum required standard. I was a service writer at Sears during the upsurge in H,V,Z speed tire. Watching high speed video of the distortion of a tire, at highway speeds, you can see the difference between 'Ok' and 'Better'. If engineers had the final say so every car sold would have a reusable air filter. I'm saying, don't look at the vehicle as a feat of design & engineering, it's a creation of design, engineering & marketing.

mja1 03-30-2012 04:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phileaux (Post 296862)
Unfortunately, vehicles are designed by engineers but built by business men.

this is true. I've never understood why more companies don't listen to their most educated/respected sales persons on product design. These are the guys that really know what needs to be done for the business men to make money and to bring the engineers back to reality.

Engineers/mathematicians have a tendency to over-analyze just about everything, then we end up with much more than needed for a lot of things that aren't used. Add to that business men that try to cut costs on those unnecessary/superfluous/over-engineered pieces, its a wonder how more products and vehicles don't end up heaping piles of dog crap.

Marc F. 04-01-2012 04:45 PM

For 21 years I did specialized metal casting. Copper is relatively easy to melt. I had to cast platinum, its melting point is about 3220 degree F. I think. I can see that making the plugs last longer. Each time its fired a fractional amount of metal is erroded by the very hot spark.

I have no idea about irdium. Also the alloys make each metal behave differently.

Metallurgy has advanced quickly from when my car was built to now (1982). The original engineers didnt know about the plugs we have now. But as its pointed out profit is involved too. While we can afford more $ per plug for a better product if you multiply that by 300,000 units yearly it makes sense to use a cheaper plug if it does a good job.

I can't agree that only using a manufactures recommended plug is the only way to go. We are modifying our engines/cars and running them in ways never even concieved by the original engineers. Learning to read the plugs like hot rodders do is what I would do. The original may be the best choice but it may be the wrong heat range after you tweak everything else on the engine.

By the way I chose the OEM recommended spark plugs, money was a concern. But with some of the engine mods I may have to change them.

I have noticed a trend in various threads to state "this is the only way to...you have no idea what your talking about, etc, etc". The problem is that our personal way of driving, modding, and where live is never considered. I am trying to add to information, not tell anybody they are wrong.

Fosters80 04-01-2012 07:16 PM

+1 for OEM plugs, especially in a Honda. Not sure why, but I would say 95% of the misfire complaints I dealt with were the result of aftermarket (Bosch, Autolite, Mighty, Champion,..) plugs. The other 5% was worn standard OEM plugs.

Honestly I can't say I've done any comparisons as far as economy or performance goes to compare the different types of plugs. I can say though that the Iridium plugs last a really long time! I think alot of it has to do with manufacturers trying to lower the cost of ownership for J.D. Power ratings.

straight5 04-10-2012 11:58 AM

I'll stir this pot a little more lol
In my Saab,
Quote:

The system puts a low voltage over the spark plugs when they are not fired to measure ionization in the cylinders. The ionic current measurement is used to replace the ordinary cam phase sensor, knock sensor and misfire measurement function.
Saab Direct Ignition - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So yea, some of us have to use the recommended plugs.

But I also believe that wear in the engine, age, modifications, and other factors may be considered.
After changing plugs many vehicles, I believe that indexing works for some cars, but not all. The gain for me was quite small, but the cost was small too - only 1 extra spark plug. Neither gains nor cost are enough to argue.

hotrodguy 01-23-2013 05:53 PM

I've tried many kinds of spark plugs thru the years and I always go back to the basics. I would rather replace cheap plugs more often than replacing expensive ones far and few between.

Ptero 02-07-2013 01:49 PM

I recently replaced the spark plugs, rotors and distributor caps on the old 750iL V12 BMW I bought to convert to hydrogen enrichment. (That hasn't happened yet but it has become my daily driver. I am SO spoiled.)

http://i714.photobucket.com/albums/w...iL_V12-480.jpg

This requires removing several items bolted to the fenders to gain access. The previous owner had installed conventional copper spark plugs.

http://i714.photobucket.com/albums/w...psa1979130.jpg

None were oil fouled but all had picked up a coating of scale which is common at 40-50k miles and this was obviously affecting performance. This was particularly noticeable at idle (500 to 600 rpm) when the CHECK ENGINE light would come on after idling for 20 seconds at a stoplight.

This engine uses high output coils and comes with a warning not to mess around with the ignition system if you are not sure of what you are doing because IT CAN KILL YOU. Actually, it just says to take it to the BMW dealer because the high voltage CAN KILL YOU.

Those lawyers - a laugh a minute!

I had heard about Iridium plugs but didn't really know much about them. I just wanted the best plug I could buy because it was so much trouble to change them (about 3 hours). I knew platinum plugs had been regarded as the best for a long time. What was the difference? After a bit of research, I learned the process for making iridium plugs had been recently developed. The developers' goals were increased hardness and decreased surface area with as little compromise in conductivity as possible.

Well, the iridium is deposited as a thin layer over copper alloy. With high output coils, there is essentially no compromise. We almost all use high resistance spark plug wires anyway (so we can listen to our radios), so who cares? The only issue is cost. Bosch iridium plugs retail for $10. That's $120 to change my plugs, plus another $12 tax in California. But AutohausAZ.com delivered 12 to me with free shipping, pre-gapped for my car, for $5.52 each. I was pleased.

http://c.shld.net/rpx/i/s/pi/mp/1984...2d449f4b73a5e1

But let me plug pelicanparts.com. After I installed the spark plugs, I thought I'd pull the distributor caps and see how they were doing. There was a lot of corrosion on the conducting surfaces, so I placed an order and received a set of caps and rotors THE NEXT AFTERNOON with FREE FEDEX SHIPPING! And the price beat everybody. The guy who runs Pelican Parts is Wayne Dempsey. He says he'll match or beat any competitor's price. You gotta love it.

I was amazed at how tiny the electrodes are on iridium spark plugs! On the test drive, the engine sounded different. It sounded like a jet turbine! I floored it in ED ("Economy Mode") and the acceleration kicked me back in my seat stronger than it previously had ever done in SD ("Sport Mode"). I am actually afraid to try it in SD, now.

http://i714.photobucket.com/albums/w...geQueen480.jpg

It's been 40 years since I had a car I was afraid of. That was a big block Ford with a stroker kit - but it wasn't designed to cruise at 150 mph like the practically milspec BMW. But don't get the idea I drive recklessly. My challenge is to break 30 MPG at highway speeds. I think it can be done using hypermiling techniques on a car like this. I've already broken 26 MPG with the dirty old plugs, so I'm looking forward to a 500 mile trip to the Bay Area to see what how the improvement in ignition performance effects my MPG.

wmjinman 02-07-2013 03:22 PM

Good luck with your new plugs! I'd like to know if you see a difference in MPG.

And, NICE RIDE!!! :thumbup:

mcrews 02-07-2013 06:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by straight5 (Post 299508)
I'll stir this pot a little more lol
In my Saab,

Saab Direct Ignition - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So yea, some of us have to use the recommended plugs.

.

I had the same experience on the Infiniti site. seemed the nkg were the only ones that didnt create problems.

user removed 02-07-2013 07:41 PM

Pulled the plugs in the 97 Ranger. Looked like they had been in there since it was built, with 125k miles on them now, clean as new with a gap that was twice what it was originally. Put the same Ford plugs in, takes 8 for the 4 cylinder and the left side is a pain. The wires are original dated 1997. They still seem to be working fine. Plugs were iridium. Fortunately I still have my pin lock impact MAC extension and the 5/8ths swivel impact socket with the rubber boot that grabs the plug. I couldn;t get my hand within a foot of the number 3 intake side plug, totally installed by luck and feel.

factory plug wires are now 16 years old, when they start messing up, I'll spend the $65 for Ford wires, and replace them again when I am 80 years old, YEAH RIGHT!

regards
Mech

LeanBurn 02-08-2013 12:45 PM

My '09 Corolla comes with iridium plugs OEM with a specific long reach specification. Each plug is located under a its own coil pack. All of this under an engine cover. The more one messes around un-attaching & re-attaching coil packs, moving & flexing plug wires etc. the more chances of failure. These components have to deal with heat and vibration so I don't need add excess flexing/handling to the mix. My Corolla's plugs are rated for 120,000 miles or 192,000 kms.

I have always used OEM specification for may cars. I have never had a plug failure or even a code showing misfire in any car I have owned.

Madact 04-20-2015 10:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Old Tele man (Post 355421)
...iridium is great for longivity, and the small "needle-point" electrode area enhances "arc/spark" creation.

To bump the thread and expand on this point a bit: the higher melting amd oxidation points of the iridium coating (and to a lesser extent platinum) allows a smaller diameter electrode - with copper, the extra heat from concentrating the spark like this would cause the electrode to erode.

The smaller diameter electrode has the desirable effect of concentrating the charge at the tip (see schoolphysics ::Welcome::). This increases the strength of the electric field at the electrode for the same electric potential (voltage), and just as with a lightning rod, this increased electric field strength causes the dielectric (in this case, air-fuel mixture) to break down at a lower electric potential.

AFAIK the main benefits of this for engine operation are
(1) More reliable timing - the spark is created at a lower voltage, so there's less uncertainty about what point in the voltage upswing the dielectric breaks down and the spark is formed.
(2) More stable spark - again, the higher electric field strength for a given voltage means the intensity and duration of the spark is more predictable.
(3) Potential for longer spark - the charge concentration effect also means in theory you could also use a longer spark gap and get the same electrical spark performance as a copper plug with a 'standard' gap - or trade off by using a slightly longer gap while still improving spark formation and stability slightly. Given the cost of 'precious metal' plus though (and the issues with re-gapping), I'm not particularly inclined to experiment with this aspect myself though :D.

One other advantage not related to the electric field is that the smaller area of the electrode means less heat is wicked away from the first bubble of burning fuel by the center electrode.

Bear in mind that even taken together, all these effects basically add up to slightly improved consistency of ignition timing, so the effects may not be huge. Also, other technologies like high energy ignition and coil-on-plug systems address similar issues. As with many things, there are real advantages, but YMMV :rolleyes:

chefdave 04-21-2015 12:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blue Bomber (Post 47761)
Spark plugs are all about conducting electricity between a gap to ignite the air/fuel mixture. The better spark you get, the more complete burn you get, and the more power you get out of the fuel you're using (and less emissions, too). To get a better spark, you need to use a good conductor. Copper is one of the best conductors available for spark plugs, and is dirt cheap, though it has pretty short life span. Nickel and platinum aren't that great, and are only used by manufacturers because of their extended life span.

Iridium is the best of both worlds. Even though iridium itself isn't the best conductor, it's extremely hard. It'll last the longest of any spark plug tip material (some are rated up to 100K). Being so hard, the tip can be made to a fraction of the size of a normal one. This creates a very concetrated spark in comparison, which easily negates the lower conductivity of the metal. Iridiums are know to ignite lean mixtures that other plugs can't, which would definitely help fuel efficiency.

I had an 86 Celica GT-S, and it ran horribly on NGK coppers. Tossed in some Denso Iridiums, and it ran like a champ. Not sure what was wrong with the car, but it really liked iridiums. I'm running NGK Iridiums on my current MR2 Turbo, and it likes them just as well. :)

toyoto engines love lridium plugs as the engines are designed to run on them. My toyota 3vze engine has denso irdriums fitted as oem.

EcoManny 06-08-2015 10:08 PM

NGK is a renowned brand, as far as i can remember. i was just looking around when i saw this thread. good read.

96vtec 10-21-2015 06:34 AM

Sorry to revive a dead thread but I purchased both the standard copper plugs and the Iridium plugs (both NGK brand) to test for a difference in mpg. So far, my scan gauge is telling me that I yielded a 4-10% increase in mpg with the copper plugs along my normal commute with no traffic, similar weather, and the same pulse and glide tactic. Further testing is required as I have not yet refilled the tank yet and can only go with what the scangauge is telling me. Will update this post in the coming weeks/months.

I drive a 2007 Toyota Yaris Hatchback by the way.


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