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chillsworld 08-20-2014 08:44 PM

Off road friendly aeromodding... My lil beast
 
I guess this can be a place for me to post my ideas/questions... And some day my build/results :)

Goal: To ecomod an SUV in a manner which maintains it's ground clearance, approach angle, departure angle, cooling system for long slow drives in the mountains, factory v8, and AWD/4WD. But to accomplish gains in FE which can justify the mods/expense :rolleyes:

I love seeing all of these awesome cars and trucks getting crazy good FE! BUT, lowering, air dams, side skirts, full boat tails, nose cones, wheel skirts, etc etc, aren't always a good idea for some of us idiots :o :D

Vehicle: 1997 Mercury Mountaineer, 5.0 V8, automatic trans, AWD (kind of the exact opposite of what you want to start with hahaha)

Wish list of mechanical upgrades: exhaust/intake, electric rad fan, eventual swap of a true 4wd rather than awd transfercase (allow for RWD operation), and of course an OBDII gauge cluster for monitoring

Now on to the aeromods!

The Front:

Issues are ground clearance, approach angle, under body aero nightmare, big tires to cause turbulence (they are only 30" at the moment, but could be upt to 33" in the future), and frontal area.

This is my initial thought, could one merge a belly pan, offroad/prerunner bashplate, grill blocks, and an aero nose?
http://i.imgur.com/nmKRhDIl.jpg

If the following two noses got naughty and had a baby... Would it be a good thing or a bad thing? From an FE geared aero standpoint. I know we try to cut flow under the vehicle with airdams and side skirts, but would this allow for a decrease in frontal load and a smoothing of under body airflow? Since dropping the truck, or adding an effective airdam aren't an option.

http://i.imgur.com/L0CIJVBl.jpg
http://ecomodder.com/forum/member-we...-59-11-141.jpg
(Weather spotters Matrix was the first example I came to)



The Middle:
Haven't figure out how yet, but full length and width belly pan... Again, the issue is clearance. Otherwise I would just drop down to the ground and go clear under the rear axle :eek:



The Rear:

Issues are ground clearance, departure angle, the wicked bad aero of the body in general.

Idea is to design a boat tailish aero back, that will be mounted to a swing away bumper. Spare tire, recovery gear, jack, axe, etc etc to be stored in the tail section. My initial drawing has used the aero template from these forums, but I can't help but feel like it is shaped wrong when I look at the boat tails I see on this forum :confused: . I'm also wondering how far back it would need to go in order to see substantial gains in FE. Again, I know the bottom angle is wrong... But it's the necessary angle for departure. Ideas by Freebeard and Aerohead involve "wings" that drop from the bottom, or even having the lower portion adjustable for hwy vs "rubicon clearance" as aerohead described it haha :cool:

http://i.imgur.com/lNAqrD1l.jpg

Any thoughts on shape or length would be greatly appreciated. The sides would be the same sloping curve as the top, with all seams being rounded as opposed to "creases". A rear pan/diffuser would help assist air along it's path to the underside of the tail, although design of that unit hasn't been considered yet. Nor do I know if any treatment behind the wheels would be worth it?

I have read through many pages of comments and designs here... And I totally get the ideas, just not sure how to apply them to my truck.


Thanks so much in advance to any responses, and the community at large for all the inspiration!

~C

Cobb 08-20-2014 10:03 PM

Does it need to be aero to save fuel or money? How about a samurai or tracker converted to a vw diesel running on recycled veggie oil?

mcrews 08-20-2014 10:33 PM

Get a scangauge. Half of your gain will come from driving smarter! See link in my signature.
Think about upsizing tires to lower rpm if doing a lot of freeway
Raise psi when on road.

chillsworld 08-20-2014 11:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cobb (Post 441397)
Does it need to be aero to save fuel or money? How about a samurai or tracker converted to a vw diesel running on recycled veggie oil?

Oh, I love Sammy's with Diesels... Nothing quite like getting 35mpg with giant mud tires on haha. And I'm a huge fan of WVO as well! If I had a diesel, I wouldn't even care about FE cause I'd def be rocking WVO. But I'm stuck working with what I got... So I'm gonna see what I can squeeze out her via aero and simple mechanical upgrades.

-C

chillsworld 08-20-2014 11:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mcrews (Post 441407)
Get a scangauge. Half of your gain will come from driving smarter! See link in my signature.
Think about upsizing tires to lower rpm if doing a lot of freeway
Raise psi when on road.

I'll be getting a gauge for sure... Saw a minimal increase with current tires, but all it did was get me back to where I was when the truck was healthy. When these wear down I'll be looking for lighter wheels and taller tires (33" if I don't have to trim fenders). I'd love to get a couple hundred rpm lower @ hwy speeds... In the mean time, I'll see if I can play with basic mechanical and aero :)

-C

cRiPpLe_rOoStEr 08-21-2014 03:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chillsworld (Post 441391)
This is my initial thought, could one merge a belly pan, offroad/prerunner bashplate, grill blocks, and an aero nose?

Why not? I guess the most challenging part would be making it stout enought to stand to the off-road environments, but still seems manageable.

2000mc 08-21-2014 04:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cRiPpLe_rOoStEr (Post 441434)
Why not? I guess the most challenging part would be making it stout enought to stand to the off-road environments, but still seems manageable.

Quote:

Originally Posted by chillsworld (Post 441391)
The Middle:
Haven't figure out how yet, but full length and width belly pan... Again, the issue is clearance. Otherwise I would just drop down to the ground and go clear under the rear axle :eek:

i dont have experience w/ off road trucks, but with atvs a good glide plate is worth several times the ground clearance that it takes away. so long as it can take the punishment, you can let it scrape, drag, and the obstacle hardly slows you down. hit something you wouldnt have the ground clearance for already, your momentum will carry you over.

aardvarcus 08-21-2014 07:14 AM

I am doing something similar, as I needed a good fuel economy vehicle to get to work and back, but I wanted more capable machine both on-road and off-road. I started with a Chevy 1991Regular Cab K2500LD 5.7L V8 that I already had that always got 10-12 MPG, and was able to get it up to 18 MPG average. That involved (in order of magnitude) a transmission swap (auto->manual), driving style, tire swap, air dam, fluid changes, etcetera. I eventually realized I would be better off starting with something that fit my needs better, so I got a 2005 Toyota Tacoma Access Cab 2.7L 5-Speed 4x4. Right out of the gate I instantly got 26+ MPG. The Tacoma is no slouch in the off-road world either.

I am not trying to dissuade you from “running what you brung” as that is always a good idea, just make sure you are going to be happy with the finished result before you put lots of time and effort into it. I have been there done that and it’s not fun. Also don’t discount the capabilities of your stock vehicle, get some decent recovery gear and a buddy and go see what your vehicle can do before you spend a bunch of money and time improving its off-road abilities. If you don’t already, look on expeditionportal, plenty of people on there doing incredible things with almost stock vehicles. Too many sites telling you to never even leave the pavement unless you are locked, lifted, 37s, and one tons.

I have had many of the same ideas you have had with regards to underbody armor, but the trick is to make it strong enough to take the abuse, but light enough not to kill FE and acceleration. No point in the V8 if you have so much weight bogging it down that it drives like an I4. My idea is to use selective steel reinforcements in key areas, and to span the majority using aluminum and HDPE. Look up what many of the tube buggys have done, weight is a big deal to them and there are lessons to be learned on design and construction. Use your armor sparingly, as a protection, not as a first resort to just power through an obstacle.

Mounting is always going to be an issue. Also, don’t create an oven, you need to realize the exhaust is like a giant heating element and if you trap the exhaust up inside a belly pan it turns into an oven. (An oven with your gas tank inside.) Plus the heat generated by your V8 exhaust is orders of magnitude more than generated by a hypermiled Honda Civic. I don’t suggest running the belly pan under your exhaust, it is possible but it takes some serious head scratching.

For the approach angle/air dam dilemma, one method is to use something flexible, like conveyor belt, as the dam so that it can take some abuse. Another method is to use something that is quickly removable. Also, you could do both, which is my preferred solution.

Tires are going to be a compromise. Either get all terrains, or run two sets one on-road only and one off-road only. At least that way you don’t wear out your offroad tires pounding the pavement. Also, I have found siped road tires do much better on slick roads and in light snow than deeply lugged off-road tires with minimal or no sipes.

The top part of your boat tail looks good, but I think you have the sides and bottom too steep. Consider making a small solidly mounted boat tail (that doesn’t come out past the bumper) which can’t affect offroad abilities and would have room for your spare, and then making a removable tail extension.

The burning question in the room: What fuel economy are you getting right now? If you don’t have one, get a ultragauge or other gauge and start learning your car’s patterns and rhythms. Miles from pavement, you need to know when something is wrong well before the car throws an check engine light at you.

elhigh 08-21-2014 10:03 AM

You might need to get this fabbed up custom, but a stout aluminum skid plate for your nose can serve on-road duty as a partial belly pan.

I wonder how hard it would be to make an air dam that was easily demounted for off-road duty.

Cheap smoothie discs for your wheels wouldn't affect your offroading at all. If you lose one on the trail, well, I did specify cheap.

chillsworld 08-21-2014 11:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cRiPpLe_rOoStEr (Post 441434)
Why not? I guess the most challenging part would be making it stout enought to stand to the off-road environments, but still seems manageable.

I think that would be relatively easy to do on the nose, the lower portion would be metal... The upper portion would be foam/fiberglass, but it would be up out of the danger zone for impacts. Truly, even in a fender bender I think it would go undamaged just like they survive hits on rocks. I think weight is the only issue.


Quote:

Originally Posted by 2000mc (Post 441448)
i dont have experience w/ off road trucks, but with atvs a good glide plate is worth several times the ground clearance that it takes away. so long as it can take the punishment, you can let it scrape, drag, and the obstacle hardly slows you down. hit something you wouldnt have the ground clearance for already, your momentum will carry you over.

Rock bouncing, an idea that scares the bejesus out of me hahaha. But I agree, it's one of the reasons I had originally looked into this idea a couple years ago... Lift kits for my particular truck are non-existent :mad: And now seeing all the talk of belly pans on here, has made me think about its potential again.

chillsworld 08-21-2014 12:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aardvarcus (Post 441460)
I am doing something similar, as I needed a good fuel economy vehicle to get to work and back, but I wanted more capable machine both on-road and off-road. I started with a Chevy 1991Regular Cab K2500LD 5.7L V8 that I already had that always got 10-12 MPG, and was able to get it up to 18 MPG average. That involved (in order of magnitude) a transmission swap (auto->manual), driving style, tire swap, air dam, fluid changes, etcetera. I eventually realized I would be better off starting with something that fit my needs better, so I got a 2005 Toyota Tacoma Access Cab 2.7L 5-Speed 4x4. Right out of the gate I instantly got 26+ MPG. The Tacoma is no slouch in the off-road world either.

From 10mpg to 18mpg... NICE! For me though, I don't have the money or skills to swap in a manual tranny. I'm sure if I did a manual and 4wd instead of AWD tcase, I would see upwards of a 30% increase in FE while in RWD. Oh if only I had my own shop and a big bank account! A taco, that was quite the upgrade for you!! :thumbup:

Quote:

I am not trying to dissuade you from “running what you brung” as that is always a good idea, just make sure you are going to be happy with the finished result before you put lots of time and effort into it. I have been there done that and it’s not fun. Also don’t discount the capabilities of your stock vehicle, get some decent recovery gear and a buddy and go see what your vehicle can do before you spend a bunch of money and time improving its off-road abilities. If you don’t already, look on expeditionportal, plenty of people on there doing incredible things with almost stock vehicles. Too many sites telling you to never even leave the pavement unless you are locked, lifted, 37s, and one tons.
Unfortunately, a car payment isn't a financial reality right now... And finding a 4wd ranger, taco, frontier, etc in a cash and carry price has proved beyond difficult for me (I've been looking!). I know all too well, that I won't be happy with the end result when compared to what I could have. But the end result will be better than what I currently have. And I'm not really trying to improve my performance off the pavement, I'm trying to improve FE that will survive off the pavement. I have recovery straps, axe, shovel, come along, couple wooden blocks for leverage, etc. I know the limitations of my truck pretty well.

I have spent many an hour reading and drooling over at expeditionportal... My dream is to live out of unimog or similar vehicle :cool:

Quote:

I have had many of the same ideas you have had with regards to underbody armor, but the trick is to make it strong enough to take the abuse, but light enough not to kill FE and acceleration... ...Use your armor sparingly, as a protection, not as a first resort to just power through an obstacle.
Totally agree, my thought was bashplates over the radiator, under the engine, and then the t-case. Then abs for places that don't need "protection". I'd love to do aluminum with HDPE, but that's after I prove to myself the increases in FE... I'll save up and do it right.

Quote:

Plus the heat generated by your V8 exhaust is orders of magnitude more than generated by a hypermiled Honda Civic. I don’t suggest running the belly pan under your exhaust, it is possible but it takes some serious head scratching
Yeah, this was a major source of confusion for me... I've tried finding someone that has a full belly pan on a similar vehicle, but all I can find are full on baja style racers and rock crawlers... Neither of which actually "seal" the hot air in because it's not an aero mod.

Quote:

For the approach angle/air dam dilemma, one method is to use something flexible, like conveyor belt, as the dam so that it can take some abuse.
Would dropping conveyor belt on the font and side really work? Seems like you would need it to be rigid, which would defeat the purpose of using it?


Quote:

Tires are going to be a compromise.
I run A/T's, I don't play in the mud so no need for anything more considering it's a daily driver.

Quote:

The top part of your boat tail looks good, but I think you have the sides and bottom too steep. Consider making a small solidly mounted boat tail (that doesn’t come out past the bumper) which can’t affect offroad abilities and would have room for your spare, and then making a removable tail extension.
Bottom is definitely too steep, I'm well aware of that... Why would you think the sides are too steep? They will be the same slope as the top.

I had considered a multi-part or removable unit, but honestly... That's just one more thing to store in the back of the SUV, something I was hoping to move away from. I guess when I get to that point, I'll play with cardboard and see what I can accomplish before deciding.


Quote:

The burning question in the room: What fuel economy are you getting right now?
My last 180 miles was 14.4 mpg, and actually a little better given the taller tires. It was about a 60/40 split between hwy and 10-30 mph forest service roads/trails. The new EPA combined is 14mpg. Over the course of 5 months last year, summer and winter selections, I averaged right at 14mpg.

~C

chillsworld 08-21-2014 12:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elhigh (Post 441480)
You might need to get this fabbed up custom, but a stout aluminum skid plate for your nose can serve on-road duty as a partial belly pan.

I wonder how hard it would be to make an air dam that was easily demounted for off-road duty.

Cheap smoothie discs for your wheels wouldn't affect your offroading at all. If you lose one on the trail, well, I did specify cheap.

Yeah that was the idea, skid plate/belly pan combo. WIth an upper aero nose that comes out to meet the radiator skid plate.

I'm sure it wouldn't be hard to make it removeable, but how big of an improvement would I be looking at without sideskirts to prevent air from being sucked under and dirtying the air flow?

BabyDiesel 08-21-2014 12:53 PM

Subscribing. I think what you're doing is outstanding and will be worthwhile! This is looking to be an important thread for those of us who have offroad ready vehicles looking to boost our FE. The great thing is that small gains (.5 - 1 mpg) are huge to us :cool: Over the course of 10-20 years, a smaller 4wd would cost less overall... though I doubt you'll drive your luxury Exploder that long ;)

Tires - look at 33x10.50R15 BFG AT KO's. My K5 will be getting these for all-purpose driving. A reduced contact patch for less drag, greater psi on the tread when offroad, reduced weight over a 33x12.50 and a greater height for reduced rpm on freeway. You'll be quad-winning :D

jeff88 08-21-2014 02:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BabyDiesel (Post 441500)
Subscribing. I think what you're doing is outstanding and will be worthwhile! This is looking to be an important thread for those of us who have offroad ready vehicles looking to boost our FE.

X2

As soon as I get the rebuild on my 4Runner done, I plan on doing some aero upgrades that I've wanted to do for a while as well (among other things :D). Definitely interested to see what you come up with.

As far as tires go, you can look at the Goodyear Wranglers. According to Consumer Reports it has the best rating for LRR among the A/T and offroading tires. I've personally used them and I like the ride on them too! :thumbup:

aerohead 08-21-2014 05:16 PM

nose/tail/wheels
 
I think Hucho would tell you to just skip the nose.The Mountaineer's nose would shame some passenger cars.A little lower with the airdam would be good.
The tail is good,just as you've rendered it .A good compromise.
As to the wheel fairings,unless everything was really 'clean' up to them,and around them,they might just be embedded within turbulence.

chillsworld 08-21-2014 09:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BabyDiesel (Post 441500)
Subscribing. I think what you're doing is outstanding and will be worthwhile! This is looking to be an important thread for those of us who have offroad ready vehicles looking to boost our FE. The great thing is that small gains (.5 - 1 mpg) are huge to us :cool: Over the course of 10-20 years, a smaller 4wd would cost less overall... though I doubt you'll drive your luxury Exploder that long ;)

Tires - look at 33x10.50R15 BFG AT KO's. My K5 will be getting these for all-purpose driving. A reduced contact patch for less drag, greater psi on the tread when offroad, reduced weight over a 33x12.50 and a greater height for reduced rpm on freeway. You'll be quad-winning :D

Well thank you very much for the encouragement! And yes, little gains for us can be epic haha... 5mpg is a 33+% increase ;) :D

As far as my luxury exploder goes, I've had her long enough to rack up more miles than most people will ever do on a single vehicle... Perhaps more than they will do on multiple combined hahaha. So unless another vehicle falls into my lap or this one suffers a fatal injury, I'll have her long enough to see savings and pay off the cost if I keep it on the cheap! See below for tire talk...

Quote:

Originally Posted by jeff88 (Post 441516)
X2

As far as tires go, you can look at the Goodyear Wranglers. According to Consumer Reports it has the best rating for LRR among the A/T and offroading tires. I've personally used them and I like the ride on them too! :thumbup:

Thanks to you as well for the encouragement!

My current tires have been upgraded to 31x10.5R15LT Wild Trac's, the tread's as aggresive as some AT's out there but WAY cheaper. And I'm getting great wear out of them. Of course, great wear means it will be a long time before I try to stuff 33's under there ;) Unless of course I do some calculatin on RPM's and FE, and follow that up with some penny pinchin :turtle:

Either way... I hope that my thoughts/ideas/questions, and hopefully follow through on some of them can help you guys (and others) in your search for better FE with your off roadin trucks.

~C

oil pan 4 08-21-2014 09:39 PM

You could do something like a conveyer belt air dam. Just hold it on with like 4 or 6 bolts and pull them off and throw the air dam in the back.
The 2/3 air dam on my suburban was good for nearly 1mpg.

Why would you want mud tires?
They are expensive, lower your fuel mileage, wear out quickly and need to be replaced well before they are worn out if you want them to be useable off road.

I say run highway tires or A/Ts with bad ass snow chains off road.
Or get a spare set of mud tires.
You can throw nasty set of snow and ice chains on a bald high way tire and do things the most radically aggressive, expensive mud tire with full complement of tread can barely do.
Another thing is most mud tires kind of suck in the snow and ice, I would rather have A/T tires. Ideally anything with chains.
Chains protect the side wall and shoulder to some degree too, plus if you do cut the side wall on a highway tire, who cares, its a cheap high way tire. If you cut the side wall on the most radically aggressive, expensive mud tire that still has full complement of tread, well sucks to be you.

chillsworld 08-21-2014 10:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aerohead (Post 441555)
I think Hucho would tell you to just skip the nose.The Mountaineer's nose would shame some passenger cars.A little lower with the airdam would be good.
The tail is good,just as you've rendered it .A good compromise.
As to the wheel fairings,unless everything was really 'clean' up to them,and around them,they might just be embedded within turbulence.

Ya don't say, putting cars to shame eh :eek::thumbup::cool:

In regards to the airdam, That's really all you think would be necessary? That in conjunction with a belly pan? Does the belly pan need to be as low as the air dam in order to prevent an eddie or swirling pressure zone behind the air dam?

~C

chillsworld 08-21-2014 10:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oil pan 4 (Post 441587)
You could do something like a conveyer belt air dam. Just hold it on with like 4 or 6 bolts and pull them off and throw the air dam in the back.
The 2/3 air dam on my suburban was good for nearly 1mpg.

2/3 airdam? Like 2/3 of the way to the ground? Do you have any frame or structure to keep it firm at hwy speeds?


Quote:

Why would you want mud tires?
They are expensive, lower your fuel mileage, wear out quickly and need to be replaced well before they are worn out if you want them to be useable off road.
I don't want mud tires, I said I don't play in the mud so I have no need for anything other than A/T's... Unless of course you consider A/T's to be mud tires, in which case I would say you need a redneck education on truck tires :D ;)

freebeard 08-22-2014 01:08 AM

http://www.tankmodel.com/typ87-2.jpg
公司收藏

This Commanderwagen has a field modification that is a roller for the front valance. Something like this could establish a low stagnation point.

http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:A...3jp3IhfgJxFcc0

Or maybe a high stagnation point and prow like a boat?

My current car is as low as I can practically get it, but for the next one I'm leaning toward a high ride height and heavily skirted and spatted wheels. A big problem for you will be the wheelwells.

For the belly pan, consider Grimco - Substrates: Max-Metal, MAX-metal HD. It's like Polymetal or OmegaLite, but the aluminum skins are .30mm, about twice as thick. It's available in 4x8 and 6x10 sheets.

cRiPpLe_rOoStEr 08-22-2014 03:01 AM

Maybe some exhaust-wrap could be useful to decrease the overheat issue while using an under-belly pan.

Quote:

Originally Posted by freebeard (Post 441620)
Or maybe a high stagnation point and prow like a boat?

I was also thinking about something like a boat-hull.

oil pan 4 08-22-2014 04:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chillsworld (Post 441603)
2/3 airdam? Like 2/3 of the way to the ground? Do you have any frame or structure to keep it firm at hwy speeds?

Its made of lawn edging hung from heat treated 2024 aluminum alloy. Its only 2/3 because of the low slung intercooler. The lawn edging is very stiff, I further firmed it up by inserting 1/2 inch PVC pipe into the loop at the end of the edging.

I have A/T tires and they are over kill. I have 3 brand new highway tires, will start by putting 2 up front. Then run the A/T tires on the back.

chillsworld 08-22-2014 10:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by freebeard (Post 441620)
http://www.tankmodel.com/typ87-2.jpg
公司收藏

This Commanderwagen has a field modification that is a roller for the front valance. Something like this could establish a low stagnation point.

Did the roller function? If so, that's a slick piece of offroading genuis right there! Can't believe we don't see this more on modern trail rigs and such... Would be great on the rear bumper of trucks too.

Quote:

Originally Posted by freebeard (Post 441620)
http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:A...3jp3IhfgJxFcc0

Or maybe a high stagnation point and prow like a boat?

Quote:

Originally Posted by cRiPpLe_rOoStEr (Post 441630)
I was also thinking about something like a boat-hull.

OK, so the picture linked of the Baja truck is what I was talking about in the first post. How would a boat hull-esque front, impact FE and other mods that are normally done for FE? It would drastically change they aerodynamics of the vehicle by forcing more air under the car, the opposite of what we normally do right? Although it would be a much smoother and controlled flow, would it lead to decreases in FE, would it generate lift or cause dangerous conditions at high speeds when combined with full underbody tray?

In regards to design, would it need to be a tapered design like a true boat hull?

https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/i...wIpI0w32vsEmph


Or could it be flat like the duck tour amphibious trucks?

http://www.tourrotorua.co.nz/pics/38...uck-tours.jpeg

Clarification: would you want it tapered to try and cut through the air forcing air around the truck like the wake of a boat, or flat simply to try and provide a slippery angle for the air to hit and slide down under the truck? This is about as far from traditional aero mods as it gets, from what I can tell...


Quote:

Originally Posted by freebeard (Post 441620)
For the belly pan, consider Grimco - Substrates: Max-Metal, MAX-metal HD. It's like Polymetal or OmegaLite, but the aluminum skins are .30mm, about twice as thick. It's available in 4x8 and 6x10 sheets.

I'll check it out, .30mm seems pretty thin though. Traditional Aluminum skid plates are 1/4 to 3/8 inch thick, 4-6mm. Of course I wouldn't need it to be super thick the entire underside of the truck! I just wonder how easily it would rip or crease under stress. Of course that would be remedied by having a cordless drill, patch sections, a rivet gun, and silicone caulk in the back of the truck :thumbup:


Quote:

Originally Posted by cRiPpLe_rOoStEr (Post 441630)
Maybe some exhaust-wrap could be useful to decrease the overheat issue while using an under-belly pan.

I had actually thought about heatshield on the underside of the truck and on the belly pan facing the exhaust... Although that wouldn't lower heat in the space, simply protect things from the heat. Exhaust wrap might be the answer! Although I'm not sure how that will impact performance or longevity of the muffler with out it's natural ability to be cooled in the wind stream under the vehicle :confused:


~C

chillsworld 08-22-2014 11:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oil pan 4 (Post 441633)
Its made of lawn edging hung from heat treated 2024 aluminum alloy. Its only 2/3 because of the low slung intercooler. The lawn edging is very stiff, I further firmed it up by inserting 1/2 inch PVC pipe into the loop at the end of the edging.

Ok, that makes sense! Thanks for the clarification!

Quote:

I have A/T tires and they are over kill. I have 3 brand new highway tires, will start by putting 2 up front. Then run the A/T tires on the back.
I have AWD, so having different tires isn't an option if I value the mechanical aspects of the AWD system. My particular tires, are pretty far from over kill. I pick aggressive Light truck tires or mild A/T tires because I like even wear given the amount of hwy/road time they see. My tires look like slicks compared to the rubber on my brothers truck hahaha

~C

aardvarcus 08-22-2014 02:32 PM

I don't know how well exhaust wrap would hold up on an offroading vehicle, I have heard if it traps water it can make things rust out sooner. I have considered getting my exhaust ceramic coated, that would greatly decrease the radiant heat escaping from the exhaust. I think doing vertical walls to the sides of the exhaust to keep it from heating up the rest of the underside would definitely be a good start, but I don't know if that would be enough to be able to seal the pan off under the exhaust. If you don't have some sort of cooling or airflow the heat would eventually start to build, it just might take longer.

aerohead 08-22-2014 04:17 PM

dam/pan
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by chillsworld (Post 441600)
Ya don't say, putting cars to shame eh :eek::thumbup::cool:

In regards to the airdam, That's really all you think would be necessary? That in conjunction with a belly pan? Does the belly pan need to be as low as the air dam in order to prevent an eddie or swirling pressure zone behind the air dam?

~C

The Mountaineer's nose is already superior to one with healthy attached flow.
http://i1271.photobucket.com/albums/...titled-6-2.jpg
The airdam,if a little bit lower, would get the air around the nose,and restrict its access to underneath.The air below the airdam would have a straight shot to the rear.
http://i1271.photobucket.com/albums/...ad2/Scans1.jpg
The bash plate would be DIRECTING air under the Mountaineer,and even with a full belly pan it's a no-no.A great way to create front lift.
From your sketch it looked like you could maintain your off road approach angle clearance if the airdam was even with the bottom of the suspensions naughty bits.
The belly pan would be dead even with the bottom of the airdam.
And if you do the pan,then you can think of a diffuser,which will kick in a little additional efficiency.

freebeard 08-22-2014 10:06 PM

Quote:

Did the roller function?
Yes. I don't know why it fell out of favor. The M3 scout car used something similar

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...hite_M3A1.jpeg

I would favor the DUKW nose, with a roller in the bottom edge and a diverter. It would have angled arms on either side of the roller that hinge on the same centerline so it would stow up and forward under the nose or drop down to horizontal to do what diverters do.

Nip off the two rear corners of the hood, and run the exhaust up one windshield post and a snorkel up the other. :thumbup:

cRiPpLe_rOoStEr 08-23-2014 01:25 AM

Ceramic-coating in the exhaust pipes is a good option too. The heat concentrated inside the pipes would actually improve the flow.


Quote:

Originally Posted by chillsworld (Post 441683)
In regards to design, would it need to be a tapered design like a true boat hull?

https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/i...wIpI0w32vsEmph


Or could it be flat like the duck tour amphibious trucks?

http://www.tourrotorua.co.nz/pics/38...uck-tours.jpeg

A flat underside would be better.

chillsworld 08-23-2014 10:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aardvarcus (Post 441714)
I don't know how well exhaust wrap would hold up on an offroading vehicle, I have heard if it traps water it can make things rust out sooner. I have considered getting my exhaust ceramic coated, that would greatly decrease the radiant heat escaping from the exhaust. I think doing vertical walls to the sides of the exhaust to keep it from heating up the rest of the underside would definitely be a good start, but I don't know if that would be enough to be able to seal the pan off under the exhaust. If you don't have some sort of cooling or airflow the heat would eventually start to build, it just might take longer.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cRiPpLe_rOoStEr (Post 441808)
Ceramic-coating in the exhaust pipes is a good option too. The heat concentrated inside the pipes would actually improve the flow.

Ceramic coating is a wee bit out of the starting budget for this hahaha... BUT that would seem to be the way to go!

I suppose, if I managed to get a true sealed belly pan... Then air from the engine compartment would vent within the belly pan and I could vent out the rear via a smooth duct to get clean the airflow back up before introduction to the rearward flow? That might alleviate some of the "heat" issues to begin with. And if it didn't work enough, I could throw on some mini electric fans to pull air out the back? I think that would also combat the dead zone of drag behind the vehicle if it were placed just right.

Quote:

Originally Posted by aerohead (Post 441732)
From your sketch it looked like you could maintain your off road approach angle clearance if the airdam was even with the bottom of the suspensions naughty bits.

The belly pan would be dead even with the bottom of the airdam.
And if you do the pan,then you can think of a diffuser,which will kick in a little additional efficiency.

Ok... rear diffuser, front spliter, full belly pan, air dam... As stated above, if I managed to do all of this, would venting the engine bay between car and pan be a good idea? Would a rear vent incorporated into the diffuser or even higher, allow for assistance in filling the void that causes drag?

Also, your truck has a fully belly pan correct? Do you have any links or could you post any pictures of the belly pan? I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around how the rear axle/leaf springs fits into the equation when attempting to do a full sealed pan. I'm guessing you went under the axle since you have minimal suspension articulation and are low to the ground for aerodynamics.

~C

chillsworld 08-23-2014 10:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by freebeard (Post 441787)
Yes. I don't know why it fell out of favor. The M3 scout car used something similar

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...hite_M3A1.jpeg

I would favor the DUKW nose, with a roller in the bottom edge and a diverter. It would have angled arms on either side of the roller that hinge on the same centerline so it would stow up and forward under the nose or drop down to horizontal to do what diverters do.

Nip off the two rear corners of the hood, and run the exhaust up one windshield post and a snorkel up the other. :thumbup:

You know the real name of the duck, and you pull out vintage military pictures with ease... I think you're my kind of guy haha :thumbup: I do recall seeing them now that you posted that pic, and i would be willing to bet that modern day ground clearance on deuce an halfs and the bigger 5 tons is the reason we don't see the rollers. They have at least twice the clearance of the older versions... And now we have Hummers and Tacoma/Hilux to fulfill the duties of the older and smaller vehicles of days past. Not to mention the duties of "scouting" are done with small UTV's, diesel dirt bikes, fast action rail buggies, and the Toyota Hilux :cool:

And that would be pretty sweet to run a snorkel and exhaust that way... But might be a bit much for my current daily driver :o I think you would have to run it up the pillar and then flatten it out along the hood to make it aero friendly? That way the exhaust was released evenly with contour of the roof?

~C

kach22i 08-23-2014 11:01 AM

Luigi Colani has proven that you can let a lot of air under the car given smooth under surfaces and in inverted wing-like body.

See this thread:
http://ecomodder.com/forum/showthrea...iew-26432.html

chillsworld 08-23-2014 12:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kach22i (Post 441848)
Luigi Colani has proven that you can let a lot of air under the car given smooth under surfaces and in inverted wing-like body.

See this thread:
http://ecomodder.com/forum/showthrea...iew-26432.html

Can't wait to watch those videos when I get some time!! It would be my understanding, that in order to do the inverted wing you need a flat(ish) top of the car in order to try and get similar pressure differentials? His designs seem to literally mimic an inverted wing. Would it even be possible to achieve this, or enough of this to make it work, with the shape of an SUV?

~C

freebeard 08-23-2014 12:43 PM

Quote:

You know the real name of the duck, and you pull out vintage military pictures with ease... I think you're my kind of guy haha
Truth be known, I'm more-or-less a peace-loving hippy. Imagine this with peace symbols all over it.

http://ecomodder.com/forum/member-fr...1373422495.jpg

Somebody said Colani?

http://ecomodder.com/forum/member-fr...wu5wo1-500.jpg

aerohead 08-23-2014 01:42 PM

venting/belly pan
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by chillsworld (Post 441842)
Ceramic coating is a wee bit out of the starting budget for this hahaha... BUT that would seem to be the way to go!

I suppose, if I managed to get a true sealed belly pan... Then air from the engine compartment would vent within the belly pan and I could vent out the rear via a smooth duct to get clean the airflow back up before introduction to the rearward flow? That might alleviate some of the "heat" issues to begin with. And if it didn't work enough, I could throw on some mini electric fans to pull air out the back? I think that would also combat the dead zone of drag behind the vehicle if it were placed just right.



Ok... rear diffuser, front spliter, full belly pan, air dam... As stated above, if I managed to do all of this, would venting the engine bay between car and pan be a good idea? Would a rear vent incorporated into the diffuser or even higher, allow for assistance in filling the void that causes drag?

Also, your truck has a fully belly pan correct? Do you have any links or could you post any pictures of the belly pan? I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around how the rear axle/leaf springs fits into the equation when attempting to do a full sealed pan. I'm guessing you went under the axle since you have minimal suspension articulation and are low to the ground for aerodynamics.

~C

All the air SHOULD be flowing OUTSIDE the pan.
Mine has leakage at the front wheel wells,in the center,at the cab/box gap,at the rear axle,and rear wheel houses.It's far from ideal.
I think that the only belly pan images may be at the 'Free Fuel Riding on the Wind' at EV World.com.,from back around 2005.
When I do the oil and filter,I'm going to open an exit behind the radiator bulkhead area as Ferrari has done in the following link
I would leave the diffuser alone.Morelli did do an aspirated rear bumper on the CNR 'banana' car,but it requires a wind tunnel to get that right.
Air traveling 'above' the pan is robbing kinetic energy from the flow 'below' the pan.Also,you're bathing the powertrain in hot air off the radiator and exhaust.Good in winter,maybe not so good in summer.http://www.tamiya.com/english/produc...enzo/enzo6.jpg

chillsworld 08-23-2014 02:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by freebeard (Post 441858)
Truth be known, I'm more-or-less a peace-loving hippy. Imagine this with peace symbols all over it.

http://ecomodder.com/forum/member-fr...1373422495.jpg

I don't know that one! What is that one... VW based? I'm in love!

Also, I didn't mean you liked war... Just that you seem to know a lot of the vintage vehicles :thumbup: :D

~C

chillsworld 08-23-2014 02:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aerohead (Post 441864)
All the air SHOULD be flowing OUTSIDE the pan.
Mine has leakage at the front wheel wells,in the center,at the cab/box gap,at the rear axle,and rear wheel houses.It's far from ideal.
I think that the only belly pan images may be at the 'Free Fuel Riding on the Wind' at EV World.com.,from back around 2005.
When I do the oil and filter,I'm going to open an exit behind the radiator bulkhead area as Ferrari has done in the following link
I would leave the diffuser alone.Morelli did do an aspirated rear bumper on the CNR 'banana' car,but it requires a wind tunnel to get that right.
Air traveling 'above' the pan is robbing kinetic energy from the flow 'below' the pan.Also,you're bathing the powertrain in hot air off the radiator and exhaust.Good in winter,maybe not so good in summer.http://www.tamiya.com/english/produc...enzo/enzo6.jpg

So unless I can find a way to make it sealed, I should stick with just a front pan and air dam? How bad would it be to have the moving air?

This is the pic of your bellypan

http://www.evworld.com/images/pknox_bellypan.jpg

Is the belly pan coming down right before the axle to try and get it to jump the gap? I have assumed this is shot from the front towards the back? Also, I'm amazed at the uneven nature of the pan, I was fearful that it would need to be flat like the image of the ferrari's underbody.

Speaking of the Ferrari, is the gap in the bellypan to vent radiator exhaust under the car, or is it simply an aerodynamics thing to help with flow on the front of the car and the creation of downforce with the ducting/splitter?

~C

euromodder 08-23-2014 03:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by freebeard (Post 441787)
Yes. I don't know why it fell out of favor. The M3 scout car used something similar

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...hite_M3A1.jpeg

Not getting the pics ...

chillsworld 08-23-2014 03:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by euromodder (Post 441884)
Not getting the pics ...

Here ya go, the scout car he posted that had the roller

http://i.imgur.com/QvL6OoXl.jpg

~C

freebeard 08-23-2014 07:52 PM

Quote:

I don't know that one! What is that one... VW based? I'm in love!
What it is is someone's Photochop. I found it a long time ago. It follows me around. ;)

It is VW based — the WWII Schwimmwagen. This presents as having a chopped top and Porsche Fuch's wheels. The vestigal sill/grab-rail is all that remains after the stock front and rear fenders were cut away. It would make a much better boat with the airbags. Roostertails off the rear tires. :thumbup:

I'd want it with a carbon-fiber tub instead of the original steel; and internal hydrojets, like a jetski, instead of the propellor. Oh, and inhub electric motors instead of the mechanical frontwheel drive. Unless that's a bad idea. :confused:

E.Roy 08-24-2014 05:36 PM

Chillsworld, those Mountaineers and Explorers (especially with the 302) are great quality vehicles. I had a '96 4.0 OHV 2wd 5speed from FL, one of my favorites vehicles I've owned, and changed my mind on Ford. I got up to 24mpg with it. I just told a friend yesterday to let me know if he sells his daughters AWD Mountaineer.

On the tires, you could try a 235/85-16 in D or E load range, they are narrow but 32" tall and can be run at high psi, up to 85psi for E.

On the transfer case, I believe that a 4x4 tcase will still have the front axle turning, just not the driveshaft, so not much savings IMO over AWD


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