EcoModder.com

EcoModder.com (https://ecomodder.com/forum/)
-   Fossil Fuel Free (https://ecomodder.com/forum/fossil-fuel-free.html)
-   -   ok, enough EV and Biodiesel, how about h20? (https://ecomodder.com/forum/showthread.php/ok-enough-ev-biodiesel-how-about-h20-6260.html)

Palionu 12-02-2008 11:05 PM

ok, enough EV and Biodiesel, how about h20?
 
I am a decently longtime lurker but I wanted to wait to post something worthwhile, i hope.

I found a fuel technology that involves water electrolysis which creates something called "Brown's Gas", a hh2 mixture (2 hydrogen atoms) that are injected through the intake pcv to the engine. I read claims that you can get anywhere from 45-86% increased efficiency with any carburated or gasoline engine. I downloaded an e-book and i can email it to anyone who wants it. I just want to know, before i build my own system, is this a bunch of hogwash or is it feasible?

I know this is not also related but my front bumper has been crushed and is held together by zip ties, It's a plastic bumper so my second and unrelated question is; Am I able to bond fiberglass resin to it? I want to make an aero bumper with an air scoop for my intake where the right foglight mount. I have a 2001 Honda Civic EX for visual purposes.

Christ 12-02-2008 11:25 PM

yes, you can fiberglass plastic. It's easier to cold weld it though. Well, not easier, but it works better. Well, not better, but it's still good.

Cold-welding ABS plastic:
  1. Cut 1x1mm bits of ABS, without paint on them
  2. Leave them dissolve in acetone (not nail polish remover, actual acetone)
  3. After they've set for awhile, they become 'gooshy' and you can bond them together by kneading them
  4. Roughen whatever area you want to apply the new plastic to, and stitch it together tightly with nylon thread (yes, you have to poke holes.
  5. Make sure you roughen an area at least 2-3 inches away from the crack in all directions, removing paint and some material
  6. Apply the new plastic and smooth it out, like bond-o, but apply more than you need, so the area is rough and higher than the surface you want it to match.
  7. Leave it dry over night, and rough file it in the morning
  8. Sand it smooth, prep, then paint.
  9. This method also works to put new pieces on old bumpers. (change the shape/look)

bennelson 12-02-2008 11:31 PM

Hydrogen burns great. The trouble is making it in the first place, and how much energy that takes.

If you are making it on the fly by using electricity generated from your alternator, it is going to take a LOT of energy to make, thus greatly loading down your engine.

In some ways, it's like trying to make a perpetual motion machine.

One way it could work, is to have a supply of charged batteries, which would run the current to make the gas. Charge the batteries at home, and recharge them again right when you get back.

A more efficient way to use that electricity would be just to have it run a motor instead.

A seperately charged hydrogen gas generation system would have the advantage of still being able to cut over to just running on gasoline only. I assume there would have to be some timing changes to make everything run right, so that might be an issue.

A while back, I talked to a really smart guy who has built a slick electric truck, is running a wind generator, and has other smart-guy projects going on. I asked him about hydrogen generation for automotive fuel use. He said he experimented with it and had no luck. I assume he was doing the typical way of running the battery off the alternator to run the H2 generator.

If you try running a system off seperately charged batteries, I would be interested in the results. That's the only way I can really see a workable system.

Frank Lee 12-03-2008 12:04 AM

Looks like lurking doesn't quite cut it. Try the search function.

Palionu 12-03-2008 12:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bennelson (Post 76087)
Hydrogen burns great. The trouble is making it in the first place, and how much energy that takes.

If you are making it on the fly by using electricity generated from your alternator, it is going to take a LOT of energy to make, thus greatly loading down your engine.

In some ways, it's like trying to make a perpetual motion machine.

One way it could work, is to have a supply of charged batteries, which would run the current to make the gas. Charge the batteries at home, and recharge them again right when you get back.

A more efficient way to use that electricity would be just to have it run a motor instead.

A seperately charged hydrogen gas generation system would have the advantage of still being able to cut over to just running on gasoline only. I assume there would have to be some timing changes to make everything run right, so that might be an issue.

A while back, I talked to a really smart guy who has built a slick electric truck, is running a wind generator, and has other smart-guy projects going on. I asked him about hydrogen generation for automotive fuel use. He said he experimented with it and had no luck. I assume he was doing the typical way of running the battery off the alternator to run the H2 generator.

If you try running a system off seperately charged batteries, I would be interested in the results. That's the only way I can really see a workable system.

I browsed the ebook and found the following schematic. It looks like it uses a control module of some sort to control the voltage going through the water from one contact plate to the other (both of which are made of stainless steel). According to some sources you only need 1.23 volts but i haven't found any mention of how much current is required so yes, the search continues.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_rXRbaTcMKf...e%2BReader.bmp

Sadly, this is the clearest this image is, I even tried it magnified, still blurry but you can maybe make it out

Palionu 12-03-2008 12:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frank Lee (Post 76096)
Looks like lurking doesn't quite cut it. Try the search function.

cynical remark ignored.

If this topic is a recurring theme, why not sticky one of them so it doesn't come up again?

Frank Lee 12-03-2008 12:22 AM

If you choose to ignore good, simple, fast, accurate advice such as typing in "hho" in the search box and seconds later coming up with 104 ecomodder links to that topic hho - Google Search be my guest.

Christ 12-03-2008 12:31 AM

If you want a schematic, I can email you one that cost some unfortunate people a large cumulative amount of money...

(that isn't me, cuz I haven't paid for schematics since I got plans to build a potato alarm clock when I was 7)


Garrett Water Carburetor - 01/12/98
Discovery of OxyHyd by William A. Rhodes - KeelyNet 12/17/01
Cottell Ultrasonic Carburetor
New Fuel - Toluene & Water
Hydrogen production at 1.24 volts
Randell Mills Water as Fuel
Water as Fuel Quote from Chain Reaction
Finsrud #1
Fuel from Water - KeelyNet 01/09/02

Those are all offsite... if you want some on-site, use the search function.. and don't be a smartass.

Palionu 12-03-2008 12:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frank Lee (Post 76103)
If you choose to ignore good, simple, fast, accurate advice such as typing in "hho" in the search box and seconds later coming up with 104 ecomodder links to that topic hho - Google Search be my guest.

And again, proof that cynical remarks do not promote community, in fact what you are doing is acting like many a angsty 12-15 year old child, congrats.


Back on topic, I'm reading the very first post on this.

Frank Lee 12-03-2008 12:43 AM

Suit yourself.

Palionu 12-03-2008 12:49 AM

So yes, the results are inconclusive. There were too many variables to document accurate results. I do have plans on working on this project later to see if it improves the fuel efficiency of my car but the biggest contributions for me right now are a roof rack delete (going to Yakima Landing Pad 7) and a grill delete on my cars bumper with just the one intake port with a pipe leading straight to my intake.

I found a promising instructable though.

http://www.instructables.com/id/HHO-...tion/?ALLSTEPS

so maybe the possibility exists of this working? The research continues before i begin the experiments.

Palionu 12-03-2008 12:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Christ (Post 76106)
If you want a schematic, I can email you one that cost some unfortunate people a large cumulative amount of money...

(that isn't me, cuz I haven't paid for schematics since I got plans to build a potato alarm clock when I was 7)


Garrett Water Carburetor - 01/12/98
Discovery of OxyHyd by William A. Rhodes - KeelyNet 12/17/01
Cottell Ultrasonic Carburetor
New Fuel - Toluene & Water
Hydrogen production at 1.24 volts
Randell Mills Water as Fuel
Water as Fuel Quote from Chain Reaction
Finsrud #1
Fuel from Water - KeelyNet 01/09/02

Those are all offsite... if you want some on-site, use the search function.. and don't be a smartass.

Thanks for the encouraging links and in response to the smart ass comment, we all have our flaws.

Christ 12-03-2008 01:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Palionu (Post 76120)
...we all have our flaws.

It's only a mistake when you do it the first time... after that, it's on purpose.

It's only a flaw if you acknowledge it exists, then refuse to correct it.

Imperfection is not an excuse for ignorance.

Would you like a few more?

Palionu 12-03-2008 01:09 AM

lets hear more idioms.


Aside from the assery, back on topic.

So based on the various 1930-40's patents the results are still inconclusive and vary on too many variables, what i like about the instructable above is that he mentioned driving his car as hard as he could under all conditions and still saw a 4x% improvement with a grape juice bottle as the reservoir.

A very promising design can be seen here

Christ 12-03-2008 01:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Palionu (Post 76124)
...vary on too many variables...

Reminds me of:
Quote:

Originally Posted by G.W.Bush
The vast majority of our imports come from outside the country.

As far as proving/disproving anything in any of those articles, you'll have to test it yourself. Regardless of whether it works to help or not, the second one person says it does, 10 people will jump on him to convince you that it's garbage and perpetual motion, etc.

If you want the truth, seek it. You can build the kit for under $50.

Palionu 12-03-2008 01:19 AM

I will, thank you.

I'm noticing some serious flaws in the scientific process of the projects I've seen.

Thomas Edison had a switchboard of 2,000 lightbulbs with 2,000 different filaments to see what was best, I might have to take the same approach.

His result was a carbonized cotton filament.

Christ 12-03-2008 01:21 AM

keep us updated... and start a project thread

cfg83 12-03-2008 02:07 AM

Palionu -

Quote:

Originally Posted by Palionu (Post 76124)
...

So based on the various 1930-40's patents the results are still inconclusive and vary on too many variables, what i like about the instructable above is that he mentioned driving his car as hard as he could under all conditions and still saw a 4x% improvement with a grape juice bottle as the reservoir.

A very promising design can be seen here

This is consistent with the argument that hydrogen works best on a vehicle that is doing *work*, aka a trucker hauling goods or a stationary engine on a contruction site. I consider the following dude to be an "honest broker" on the subject :

Diesel Dynamometer Testing Analysis
Hydrogen-Boost
Quote:

In the charts below the light blue shaded area represents the possible savings with Hydrogen Boost. The yellow shaded areas represent the possible NEGATIVE savings with Hydrogen Boost. Notice that at idle there is always a negative savings and at low cruise the savings may be negative or slightly positive. As stated in recent newsletter and documents the Hydrogen Boost benefits are especially prevalent when high power and torque are being produced (when lots of fuel is being combusted). This really shows that Hydrogen Boost can be most valuable with vehicles that are heavily loaded or underpowered.

The conditions where Hydrogen Boost may improve mileage the least is when the driver is already implementing driving tips like slow acceleration and cruising at low speeds and throttle settings. It may be possible that the cost of the hydrogen production could be higher than the benefits of that hydrogen to the miniscule amounts of fuel that are being combusted while using these efficient driving techniques. This is exaggerated when the operator sets his hydrogen production too high for the engine he is operating. ...

This is consistent with the Ronn Motor Company Gizmo being licensed for truck fleets :

RMC Receives $500,000 for Operations and Development of H2GO
Quote:

AUSTIN, TX - December 01, 2008 - Ronn Motor Company, Inc. (PINKSHEETS: RNNM) announced today that RJR Pipkin Company has invested $500,000 over the last three months for the development of the H2GO Real-Time Hydrogen Injection System.

Ronn Maxwell, CEO of Ronn Motor Company, said, "Our relationship with RJR Pipkin Company will bring specific marketing focus to the large trucking industry. We look forward to working with RJR Pipkin to get our product deployed to this important market."

RJR Pipkin Company operates a truck fleet in East Texas and has relationships in the industry to expand sales for the H2GO Real-Time System.
President of RJR Pipkin Company, Randy Pipkin, added, "These large trucks are the backbone of the shipping and commercial industries in the United States and average 6 miles per gallon nationally. Every tenth of a mile increase in their fuel efficiency will increase the truck owner's bottom line."

There are more than 1.9 million tractor trailers operating in the US today and annual sales of new rigs in 2006 were 284,000 units. The US has approximately 360,000 trucking companies and their annual fuel consumption accounts for 12.8% of the total fuel purchased in one year. The rising cost of fuel has been cited as a key contributor to trucking company failures in the United States.

I couldn't find an investor named "RJR Pipkin", but I did find "R. J. PIPKIN COMPANY", which is located in East Texas :

FRAC TANK RENTALS - PERMIAN BASIN - HOME
Quote:

Our main business office is located in Monahans, Tx. We have service yards in Andrews, Monahans, Odessa, and Ozona.

CarloSW2

Christ 12-03-2008 02:09 AM

What, are you NCIS or something? :P

Palionu 12-03-2008 02:27 AM

In response to the hydrogen boost guy, i can't trust anyone who has a pay link on the bottom of his page for more info.

Also, did you know that the japanese released a car that runs solely on water? The video was dated 6/13/2008.

Christ 12-03-2008 02:33 AM

Did you listen to the alternative fuels argument?

Professor doubts water car claims | Video | Reuters.com

cfg83 12-03-2008 02:39 AM

Christ -

Quote:

Originally Posted by Christ (Post 76144)
What, are you NCIS or something? :P

No, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night, :p .

CarloSW2

Christ 12-03-2008 02:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cfg83 (Post 76150)
Christ -



No, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night, :p .

CarloSW2

I saved a bunch of money on my car insurance by CANCELLING IT!!!! MUHAHAHA!. No, really though. Geico was too expensive.

Palionu 12-03-2008 02:48 AM

haha, I'm looking up too many things at once. I'm thinking that improving the aerodynamics and breathability of my car are on the top of my list.

I started a new thread as I encourage insight and i did a search this time ;P

dcb 12-03-2008 07:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Palionu (Post 76152)
improving the aerodynamics and breathability of my car are on the top of my list.

Try that search thing, most "breathability" changes are counter to MPG gains IIRC. i.e. larger exhaust, intake, what have you.

And that water car is a joke without any scientific explanation. Too good to be true is the most likely explanation at this point in time. I wouldn't give them any investment money just based on that video, got scam written all over it.

braddd 12-03-2008 05:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frank Lee (Post 76103)
If you choose to ignore good, simple, fast, accurate advice such as typing in "hho" in the search box and seconds later coming up with 104 ecomodder links to that topic hho - Google Search be my guest.

What an absolutely rude and anger ridden post trail here. No one likes this sort of thing on a forum, it really deters people from staying on a forum when they see things like this. That's why in all of my communities I warn replies like this, and if they are done often I ban the member. I'd rather have 20 new members with 10 posts than 1 vet with 502 who berates everyone.

Christ 12-03-2008 05:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by braddd (Post 76327)
What an absolutely rude and anger ridden post trail here. No one likes this sort of thing on a forum, it really deters people from staying on a forum when they see things like this. That's why in all of my communities I warn replies like this, and if they are done often I ban the member. I'd rather have 20 new members with 10 posts than 1 vet with 502 who berates everyone.

So I take it you never get tired of answering the same old question, over and over again, or seeing the same topics beaten to death for weeks on end until there is no viable argument for or against it, when it would have taken less time to do a simple search than to post?

braddd 12-03-2008 05:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Christ (Post 76334)
So I take it you never get tired of answering the same old question, over and over again, or seeing the same topics beaten to death for weeks on end until there is no viable argument for or against it, when it would have taken less time to do a simple search than to post?

I own a forum where 10 new people signup every single day, and ask the EXACT same questions that 12,000 others have asked before them.

Solutions:
1) Copy paste a standard reply
2) or if you are going to be a douche... don't reply at all

It's pretty simple.

Christ 12-03-2008 05:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by braddd (Post 76335)
I own a forum where 10 new people signup every single day, and ask the EXACT same questions that 12,000 others have asked before them.

Solutions:
1) Copy paste a standard reply
2) or if you are going to be a douche... don't reply at all

It's pretty simple.

Standard reply - use the search function.

That was said. OP had a smart response for it. Hence the reason FrankLee posted what he did. Try reading the thread thoroughly before taking a post out of context and trying to bash it after the conflict has been resolved.

braddd 12-03-2008 05:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Christ (Post 76337)
Standard reply - use the search function.

That was said. OP had a smart response for it. Hence the reason FrankLee posted what he did. Try reading the thread thoroughly before taking a post out of context and trying to bash it after the conflict has been resolved.

Why did you reply to me to create conflict, if the conflict had been resolved? I am just curious why everyone has to argue a point. You're wrong. How does that make you feel?

See, problem resolved.

bennelson 12-03-2008 05:53 PM

Please keep it civil.

I don't want to close down this thread because there is some good conversation in it, but please be respectful of others and follow forum eticiq...etticcit...etiquettte...um. Good manners.

Palionu 12-03-2008 07:27 PM

I know that there is some promise in this experiement but Christ showed one me a page that caught my interest and concern. I was looking at the temperatures and don't remember them exactly but gasoline burns at what, 790-900 degrees? Now hydrogen burns at 200 degrees higher temperatures. What are the long term effects on an aluminum engine block? Steel?

SVOboy 12-03-2008 07:38 PM

HHO is always going to be a heated topic here, especially because there is a whole lot of talk about it and still no proof that any retrofit system works. Sure, it improves combustion efficiency in highly tailored environments, but what does that mean for us? Unless one of us is building and engine from scratch, I think, not much.

If you want to talk about specs on building hho systems and fiddling around with that stuff, go here: HHO Forums - Trying to facilitate the production of HHO for the common folk. - Powered by vBulletin EcoModder is for proven or scientifically sound modifications and driving techniques, so let's keep it there or junk will have to be culled. What's more, EM is a place of civilized discussion, meaning no name calling or blatant rudeness. If you break the rules you will be yelled at, your posts deleted, and you banned. So keep that in mind, :)

Christ 12-03-2008 08:29 PM

To answer the question, the hydrogen cars that are currently in production are equipped with aluminum engines.

Palionu 12-03-2008 08:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SVOboy (Post 76375)
HHO is always going to be a heated topic here, especially because there is a whole lot of talk about it and still no proof that any retrofit system works. Sure, it improves combustion efficiency in highly tailored environments, but what does that mean for us? Unless one of us is building and engine from scratch, I think, not much.

If you want to talk about specs on building hho systems and fiddling around with that stuff, go here: HHO Forums - Trying to facilitate the production of HHO for the common folk. - Powered by vBulletin EcoModder is for proven or scientifically sound modifications and driving techniques, so let's keep it there or junk will have to be culled. What's more, EM is a place of civilized discussion, meaning no name calling or blatant rudeness. If you break the rules you will be yelled at, your posts deleted, and you banned. So keep that in mind, :)

I saw this post turning sour when Christ responded so I made another one on another problem or rather, another thing that hasn't been extensively covered here.


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 06:28 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.5.2
All content copyright EcoModder.com