Orbis Wheel
 

https://orbisdriven.com/

I always thought the Edison 2 in wheel suspension deserved a better fate. Comes now Orbis, with a wheel that is hubless and not at the same time. :confused:

Why is this in the unicorn corral? Seems like a neat invention and a logical extension of the proven tech Edison2 came up with.

It makes claims that can't possibly be true, such as "weighs no more than a conventional wheel". I'm not thrilled that there's a gear around the inside perimeter of the wheel either. Seems like debris would constantly be crunched in there.

The Edison in-wheel suspension was not a good idea. It adds to unsprung weight needlessly and compromises the length of travel. Conventional suspension is pretty good. It didn't really solve any problems.

That's the whole thing, a new product must solve a problem better than any other existing products.

I didn't think much about the choice. Get the mods to move it if you like. Okay by me.

I'd be more impressed if they had the wheel on both ends of the car. It appears the Civic is frontwheel drive with these tagged on the back, but the exploded diagram shows an electric motor. But no brake? [shrug]

Then there's the $10K price tag.

https://i0.wp.com/www.gottabemobile....re-8.jpg?ssl=1

I'm not sure where this extra unsprung weight you're talking about comes into it?

I see a coilover, a couple arms, a brake caliper/rotor, and a hub, all cleverly packaged, but the same stuff as in any current car.

But you certainly have a point about somewhat limited travel.

https://www.elioowners.com/attachmen...ion-jpg.16965/

That's one of the drive wheels. That reduction box/portal axle thing does look to add some unsprung mass. But IIRC the reason for it was to tuck the axle aerodynamically up with the main suspension support spar above. Throw the drive axle straight into the back of the hub there, and I'm still not seeing the reduction in unsprung weight with something like a Honda civic:

https://d2t1xqejof9utc.cloudfront.ne...d/original.jpg

Orbis... yeah, they're adding unsprung weight, but they seem to weigh about half (35lbs) of what other hub motors weigh. Seems like a win and pretty non-unicorn to me.

Maybe it doesn't add much weight, but the point that it reduces travel remains. If this were a better way to do suspension, they'd already be using it.


...and I was misremembering their implementation of in wheel suspension thinking it was something more along these lines:

http://www.mogowheelchairs.com.au/as...l/SOFT-001.png

They showed up at SEMA with a modified new Type R Civic. Weighed parts on camera, discussed Motor Trend test results:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=iQ4lTPVR3qc

Here is the motor Trend article:

https://www.motortrend.com/cars/hond...-r-awd-review/

"These two permanent-magnet AC electric motors, borrowed directly from a Zero S ZF13.0 electric motorcycle, add about 50 hp and 70 lb-ft of torque to each rear wheel. They spin the wheel rims via a fixed 6.2:1 gear ratio. They're powered by Zero Motorcycle batteries with a total pack capacity of 13.3 kW-hrs. Removing the back seat and cargo area floor and mounting these batteries and the controller that makes it all work adds about 180 pounds to the curb weight of the original Civic Type R."

Ah, so the no weight gain claim is based on the ridiculously light weight caliper and rotor they use offsetting the extra motor with. Makes more sense.

Also, the hubcap is apparently solid or optionally lexan backed and seals the front of the wheel, but that still doesn't explain how grime won't get in there from the back. Those unlubricated gears seem problematic... at least they're straight-cut, but I would assume they're going to be wear parts that require fairly frequent replacement. Fine for a track car, but maybe not so much a daily.

I wondered about something similar. It seems to me there's a risk the road debris such as rocks and other crap that might be on the road getting in there and wreaking havoc with that ring gear. I would think a protective plastic cover for the back would be important. It would prevent airflow passing through the wheel, reducing brake cooling, but also reducing road debris risks. That little caliper and large brake disc would probably be fine with a small heat increase. It's the rear brakes anyway.

Another video about the Orbis Wheel, complete with demonstrations. This one is by the YouTuber HondaProJason. It includes discussion of braking and other capacities that I haven't seen in the other discussions by Motor Trend and at SEMA. There is some repetition of marketing claims as well, however.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ocYd0I1cJH4

The rollers ride directly on the rim. What happens when one or more of them lock up from getting wet/dirty? How much does it cost to retrofit or even repair/replace? And those tires look very out of round.

It would be cool to get this stuff to a fully working/durable stage, but I see too many weak areas in the engineering. Bearing surfaces worry me in this application because there is no way to keep them clean/lubed.

This is screaming "prototype" to me so loudly I can hardly hear anything else.

I was interested in this system but only having a 19" wheel is a deal breaker for me. It would also be impossible to rotate the tires with this setup. This would be good for a track car though. A much better setup would not involve the wheels, so it is more practical for normal drivers.

Funny how their slogan is "The Green New Wheel". At least their marketing has some real numbers, and is technically feasible, unlike the Green New Deal.

Yeah! Every thread should have politics in it!

*Skip*

Yeah, I feel the same. I stay out of the lounge forum because of the politics, and I avoid threads that veer off into politics. On the few occasions that I have veered into references, I have regretted it. It's not why I am here. Best to all!

I for one appreciated the sarcasm. Not so much the grousing.

I appreciated it too.

Not sure why people interpret it as a political statement, as I try to avoid politics as much as possible. I saw an abstract connection between this product, which I've been critical of, and GND, which I've also been critical of. Then their own advertising appropriated the slogan. Clever.

When I criticize something, it's because the idea has problems (or my own understanding has problems), not because it's associated with a particular political party. I don't even know what party The Green New Deal is most commonly associated with because I don't follow politics. Socialist party? Green party? I dunno.

[aerohead touched on this with his book review in the Climate Consensus thread.]

I criticize things because I am a sad and strange little man.

That still hasn't been locked?

I criticize things because I can think critically, and expect others can too. I'm critical, but not too cynical in my estimation, though I have been too cynical in the past.

The climate consensus thread is epic, and should never be locked. People unable to contend with the discussion there aren't forced to visit the thread.

It's among the most impactful discussions yet that has informed and shaped my understanding and opinion of climate change, and ongoing discussion is likely to continue this evolution of thought.

I find mocking is more cathartic.

does anyone have any more info on this?

Seems like a great idea to retro-fit electric assistance to any FWD vehicle.

Where did the pricing comment come from (page 1) saying this was $10k? I can't find any info on the web with pricing?

FWIW i'm also "following" orbis on face book and i've asked if there is any more news since the flurry of info after SEMA show.


************ edit to add: *****************

ok so i got a response from their FB page, yes $10k for two wheels, all production fully allocated for 2019 so if you want anything it'll be next year.

This is a great concept, but i'm out - as a mod to improve mpg it'd take a very long time to recoup your 10k investment.. shame as i really like this approach.

If you drive a lot I imagine it would not take that long, depending on the vehicle. Your mpg could double or even triple if most of your driving is in the city.

Here is an email that I got from the company. It is just a generic copy and paste response:

Thank you for your email and interest in ORBIS and our Ring-Drive system. We are excited to bring the technology to the retail market.



Since our “debut” at SEMA last October, we have been engaged by a large commercial entity to develop an integrated AWD platform. As we are a start-up with very limited resources, we have been forced to focus on this project and are temporarily shelving a direct-to-consumer retrofit kit. We hope to offer a “universal” kit for both FWD and RWD vehicles in the next year or so but currently I do not have exact specs or a list of which vehicles it will work with. Currently, however, we are working exclusively with a 19”x 8” wheel, if that helps.



As soon as we move closer towards bringing the technology to market, we will be able to answer more specific questions on an individual basis, including which vehicles and which markets we will be able to serve.



In addition, as we establish manufacturing, we will be looking to engage with potential licensing and distribution partners.



I will be sure to keep your email address and notify you in advance of a public announcement, whenever that should occur.



Thank you for your interest and understanding.



Best regards,



Peter

ok, similar to my response but a bit more info in mine (today) i think:


"ORBIS Driven Hi Rob, thanks for your interest in Orbis wheels. The wheels start at US$9,995 for two. Our manufacturing capacity for 2019 is fully allocated, which is why we are not accepting new orders. But we'd still love to contact you when we're ready to take your order, so if you are interested, please complete our form here: https://orbisdriven.com/contact/
And please do like our page, if you haven't done so already. Thanks again."

Yep, but for me i think it won't add much. Most of my commute is highway speeds, 110-120 miles a day for my commute. The diesel does a great job at these sorts of speeds and whilst i'd love to have the additional performance on tap, and i although i'd save if i could use electric for the low speed stuff like a prius yes it would help but not enough to justify the spend.

If i manage 70mpg now, and the orbis bumped me up to say 80mpg, then my basic calc looks like it would save me about £1 per trip, so i'd need 10,000 trips to break even.. so ~50 years :)

Even if my maths is wrong and the saving is double that ^ it'd still take 25 yrs to break even, by which time the car would have over half a million miles.

I would say the mpg increase would be closer to 50-75% depending on the vehicle. These wheels add 100 hp, which is very significant when you consider that most engines make around 160-180 hp at the crank. That would end up being like 125 or so hp to the wheels. Your engine would have to work half as hard to maintain 60 mph. What if your mpg increased to say 110 mpg? Then would it be worth it?

The way I look at it is that it will cost only 10k to convert your car to a hybrid. New hybrids are much more than that.

This is very cool, and worth it to me if it is reliable and not overly cumbersome to rotate tires and things. A difference is that I am looking into doing this to an older vehicle that I will acquire instead of a new one.

Rich Benoit (Rich Rebuilds) is putting one of the same [brand] motors in a Model A lowboy roadster. Clutchless, on a three-speed (prolly 1939 Ford (last year of the floor shift)).

I could see a pure EV, with 100hp driving the rear wheels. Here's an example with a golfcart motor and lead acid batteries:

https://ecomodder.com/forum/member-f...ectric-t-2.jpg

You could put thin fenders and running boards on that and hide a Tesla or Rav4 battery pack. Frunk 'n trunk.

Yep, i also like the idea of using this tech to electrify a classic.

My "other" vehicle is a 78 vw westfalia - great vehicle but a really old tech aircooled engine with only 70bhp from the factory and lousy mpg. Adding this sort of bolt on tech would be a game-changer for that vehicle (although as it's already RWD it may not be as easy to integrate?)


BTW - i checked with Orbis - the 10k cost is not the full investment you need to make - that's just for the bolt on wheels /motor/brake etc. . You'd still need to buy a battery system on top.

@taylor95 - ok, if i say, got ~50 mile range of of this, so i save half my fuel cost on my commute, might add up to almost £1k per year.. still would take more than 10 years to break even :(

An EV with this technology would be cool. You would need to figure out the computer though.

Wow, that does not include batteries? That's a major expense. Hopefully the price goes down in the next five years which is when I would be wanting to buy this.

10-12 years would be a great payoff time, depending on how long you plan on keeping the vehicle. That is around the same time that solar panels on a home would pay off.

Figure $2,000 for some automotive salvage pack, $1,000 for a decent 3ph A/C controller used

Are we talking about an F150? If you have all of the numbers, you can use this to calculate how many horsepower your car needs: https://ecomodder.com/forum/tool-aer...resistance.php

I could not find all of the numbers for an F-150, so I am just quoting this:
https://ecomodder.com/forum/showthre...tml#post376742

I do not know for what weight vehicle the 12 HP figure would be accurate, but let's take my 1,075 kg and 115-pound HX, remove the back seat, drop in a 540 kg Tesla battery, and now I have a 1,615 kg 225 HP 2-seater that needs a suspension upgrade.

Now I need 18 HP at 60 MPH and... what is the point of a car like this? To need to fill up and charge, which I really do not think you would want to do at the same time?

Does this system need to be charged? If so, that takes away most of the value I placed on Orbis. I thought it would be like a regular hybrid. I haven't come across anything that said it needs to be charged.

I actually have a Silverado in mind, which is pretty similar in terms of weight and cd. It would be used for towing occasionally as well as being a daily. Having the orbis wheels would be great on this--as long as charging is not a requirement.

In my experience, increasing horsepower will increase mpg as long as you don't drive the vehicle aggressively in most applications.

They were never very direct about that, even though they talk about EV only operation. Since they have sold some rights to something like a venture capital firm, rather than continuing to market, I think we can see where they were finessing their reporting to the public. They also gave the impression that it could work seamlessly as AWD with the existing throttle and such but never explained the motor controller or throttling in any detail. We'll see if it ever really comes to market now. They musta just gotten quite a payday.

It needs to be powered somehow. If they developed a Mr. Fusion that is a much bigger deal than this.

lol

Why can't the engine charge the batteries? Isn't that how a prius works?

https://priuschat.com/threads/altern...9/#post-558162

A standard alternator would be absolutely inadequate. If Orbis Wheels worked, they should be able to provide regenerative braking, but you would need a far more powerful alternator to charge the battery the rest of the time, and the Toyota system uses the "alternators" as motors, too.

Orbis Wheel updates
 

The last post in this thread is almost two years old. At the time, it looked like the company had gone dark because they had suddenly pulled the product for new orders.

But they're still here, it seems, with a website updated this year and a San Francisco Bay Area address (Mill Valley, CA): https://orbisdriven.com

And a video with clips of more recent testing is on YouTube (new road testing/demo video starts at 3:27 and runs for about a minute and a half):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hEpP5lmnz8Q

Still, given their claims... their youtube channel is oddly quiet: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCFO...TLf1h5Uzc9YCAw

Seems the pandemic halted their wheel development and shifted them to COVID mask innovation attempts.

Let's suppose a similar mechanism could be encased within some sort of oversized brake drum, I could see it being easier to promote for usage on commercial vehicles, even in a rougher environment. On a sidenote, regenerative braking would also lead to fewer wear to the service brakes.

Sorry, this sounds like the flying car.....something of a novelty but completely useless. They tout less unsprung weight and then add 31 lbs to each wheel! All the moving parts and failure points make me cringe. A simple bearing is much simpler and is not prone to failure from dust, rocks, ice, snow, etc... How fast do those little idler wheels turn??? Holy crap. 4 watts my foot. Friction is proportional to rpm in a rotating assembly. I will happily stick with a central spindle and bearing.
:confused: