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-   -   PBS takes the Hummer v Prius bait (https://ecomodder.com/forum/showthread.php/pbs-takes-hummer-v-prius-bait-3290.html)

SVOboy 06-23-2008 09:06 PM

PBS takes the Hummer v Prius bait
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YGT6alnrg7I

Lazarus 06-23-2008 09:16 PM

Man that was really bad. Do you have a link to that report? Is it the same one were they give the life cycle of the Prius at 100k and the hummer at 300k?

SVOboy 06-23-2008 09:17 PM

it is the same one, I have lost the link, and don't want to find it...

cfg83 06-23-2008 09:21 PM

Lazarus -

And it doesn't account for the latest battery tech price drop for the Prius and Civic hybrids.

CarloSW2

Arminius 06-23-2008 09:59 PM

How come she is only getting 500 miles per tank? :eek:

ttoyoda 06-23-2008 10:13 PM

What made me laugh is how she is having a debate about what is "greener" from the inside of what is probably a 12000 square foot house.:p
How many prius fulls of electricity does it take to air conditon that place again? :rolleyes:
And why are we seeing the other guy on the screen of her laptop?:confused: Just to show how up to date she is?

Arminius 06-23-2008 10:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ttoyoda (Post 37652)
And why are we seeing the other guy on the screen of her laptop?:confused: Just to show how up to date she is?

It gives me the impression that she has a low budget (can't fly the guy) or that she didn't want to spent time doing a quality job. However, in modern times, that (interview over the Web) is acceptable, imho. Besides, it saved fuel.

Looks like she's doing the interview with the lights off in the house. Not your typical American.

Lazarus 06-23-2008 10:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arminius (Post 37662)
It gives me the impression that she has a low budget (can't fly the guy) or that she didn't want to spent time doing a quality job. However, in modern times, that is acceptable, imho. Besides, it saved fuel.

Yes I think it fit with the green image of the video. No transportation CO2
.

Blue07CivicEX 06-23-2008 10:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arminius (Post 37639)
How come she is only getting 500 miles per tank? :eek:

Damn!!! I thought the same thing when I watched it, I thought to myself "well if you'd get out of the fast lane you'd get 700!!!"

Lazarus 06-23-2008 10:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blue07CivicEX (Post 37669)
Damn!!! I thought the same thing when I watched it, I thought to myself "well if you'd get out of the fast lane you'd get 700!!!"

It only has a 11.9 gallon tank. May be she is filling up at 1/4 mark:p

ebacherville 06-23-2008 10:51 PM

They made it sound like when the next "better" hybrid comes along that all prius's are going to be scrapped, and not sold into the car food chain where more drivers are going to covet them... hell I drive a 22 year old crx for it's high MPG's.. and its getting better mpg's than that prius I might add.. pint made people are going to drive the pissout of these for years ..

Also i be they will last even longer as there motors arnt always running , think of the hours saved running the motor while idling etc in a normal car.. those hours wont be on any prius..

fshagan 06-24-2008 12:16 AM

Most of these stories are stupid. I own a Prius (64,000 miles since Feb, 2006) and my lifetime average is 49 MPG. I can drive carefully and get up around 58 MPG, but its not worth it to risk your life at 55 MPH on a Southern California freeway!

Gas mileage wasn't the only reason I chose the Prius over the Toyota Matrix, Chevy HHR and Toyota Camry; I liked the car better, especially the "low end" needed to go up freeway on-ramps. The stats on the car don't show that it has the quick acceleration because the 0 - 60 time is not impressive, but in practice I can get up and onto the freeway much easier than in a Matrix or the 4 cylinder Camry.

I traded in a vehicle that was getting 22 MPG, and now I'm driving one that gets me 49 MPG (and can get me much more.) More than doubling your gas mileage is a good thing.

Z man 06-24-2008 02:09 AM

This guy's findings are ridiculous. For one, I really would love to have a Prius considering how much I drive, and I would P&G the crap out of it to get 700+ miles out of the tank. People want to be "green", but it's also much more convenient to go to the gas station less often, and pay less each time compared to the god awful, slow, terrible thing they call the H3.

The Prius is very similar to the Yaris, Corolla, or xA at highway speeds (same 1.5L), and those cars get great MPG.

azraelswrd 06-24-2008 05:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Z man (Post 37728)
This guy's findings are ridiculous. For one, I really would love to have a Prius considering how much I drive, and I would P&G the crap out of it to get 700+ miles out of the tank. People want to be "green", but it's also much more convenient to go to the gas station less often, and pay less each time compared to the god awful, slow, terrible thing they call the H3.

The Prius is very similar to the Yaris, Corolla, or xA at highway speeds (same 1.5L), and those cars get great MPG.


I love my xA. :D

But from what I gathered in that clip, does it really matter to the average consumer the amount of "energy" it took to develop the hybrid technology over ICEs? I really don't see anyone in my neighborhood caring other than the immediate returns of more miles per gallon of gas used erego less money used for gas they would get from driving a Prius over a Hummer.

Hey, I wish I could get 500 miles out my car. :thumbup:

fshagan 06-24-2008 09:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Z man (Post 37728)
The Prius is very similar to the Yaris, Corolla, or xA at highway speeds (same 1.5L), and those cars get great MPG.

Those cars do get great highway mileage, and anyone trading up from a 18 mpg car is doing a good thing. But the Prius is better. The Prius gets better mileage on the highway because it uses an Atkinson cycle engine rather than an Otto cycle engine. The reason the Prius can use an Atkinson cycle engine is that the electric motors are, contrary to myth, able to be used at any speed to boost horsepower. If you are cruising along at 65 MPH, and punch it, the Prius engages the electric motor as well as feeds the ICE more fuel. Without the electric motor assist, it would be a lesson in lethargy.

There's a good article about the difference between the Prius and Toyota Echo engine which appear to be exactly the same (except for the Atkinson vs. Otto cycle) at http://www.cleangreencar.co.nz/page/prius-petrol-engine.

fshagan 06-24-2008 09:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by azraelswrd (Post 37745)
I love my xA. :D

But from what I gathered in that clip, does it really matter to the average consumer the amount of "energy" it took to develop the hybrid technology over ICEs? I really don't see anyone in my neighborhood caring other than the immediate returns of more miles per gallon of gas used erego less money used for gas they would get from driving a Prius over a Hummer.

Hey, I wish I could get 500 miles out my car. :thumbup:

Using fancy accounting tricks, anyone can make the case for anything. James Garner commented once that the long running "Rockford Files" TV show never produced a profit by the Hollywood accountants; every time they dented his Firebird they "totaled it" on the books and the body repair was "buying a new one", for instance.

The fact is that buying any small car that costs $10,000 less than a H3 is going to save you money. If you're going to include development costs, then perhaps you should include environmental impact costs (what is the future cost of carbon offsets?), extra wear on the roads due to the extra weight of the H3, space utilization of large vs. small parking spaces, etc. But what they do is simply cherry pick the factors they want to include that supports their pre-ordained view. Its certainly not the scientific method!

ttoyoda 06-24-2008 10:02 AM

Quote:

It gives me the impression that she has a low budget (can't fly the guy) or that she didn't want to spent time doing a quality job. However, in modern times, that (interview over the Web) is acceptable, imho. Besides, it saved fuel.
Looks like she's doing the interview with the lights off in the house. Not your typical American.
Well the house has windows absolutely everywhere so she would look (even more) like an idiot with the lights on in the daytime. I expect she is lit for the camera, those lights are just off screen. I don't know ANY people who turn lights on in the daytime.

I don't object that the inverview is done remotely, I just meant that in post production they could have taken that web video and shown it split screen or full screen rather than using Final Cut Pro to superimpose it over her laptop screen to give that cheezy "real time video conferencing" effect.

ttoyoda 06-24-2008 10:04 AM

Quote:

electric motors are, contrary to myth, able to be used at any speed to boost horsepower. If you are cruising along at 65 MPH, and punch it, the Prius engages the electric motor as well as feeds the ICE more fuel. Without the electric motor assist, it would be a lesson in lethargy.
Fine until the battery runs down. Then the little turtle icon lights up, right?

jamesqf 06-24-2008 07:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fshagan (Post 37708)
I can drive carefully and get up around 58 MPG, but its not worth it to risk your life at 55 MPH on a Southern California freeway!

Err... Where can you find a Southern California freeway on which you can actually do 55 mph? (Other than maybe around 3 AM.) From what I recall, reality is more like 10-20 mph average in stop & go - for which the Prius should be well suited :-)

elhigh 06-24-2008 09:42 PM

They're assuming a 100K life on a Prius? Why? Or is that just for the batteries? Good news, they're easy to replace.

That's why I love driving older used cars. They're already obsolete, so no worries there. And as it turns out, they hypermile just fine.

fshagan 06-25-2008 12:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ttoyoda (Post 37801)
Fine until the battery runs down. Then the little turtle icon lights up, right?

No, that doesn't happen in practice, although I suppose you could discharge the battery enough or be in acceleration mode long enough to cause the computer to cut off the electric motor and leave you with ICE alone. I've never heard of that happening, though.

The battery management on the Prius is pretty well done. When the battery gets down to about 50% charge, the ICE will run to recharge it. You also do regenerative braking and regen engine braking whenever you are slowing down, take your foot off the pedal, etc. In normal driving, you generate quite a bit of electricity to charge the battery pack, and its rare for me to get the ICE coming on solely to charge the batteries.

fshagan 06-25-2008 12:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jamesqf (Post 37994)
Err... Where can you find a Southern California freeway on which you can actually do 55 mph? (Other than maybe around 3 AM.) From what I recall, reality is more like 10-20 mph average in stop & go - for which the Prius should be well suited :-)

I drive the 101 from Ventura to Santa Barbara every day, and there are long stretches that have fast travel. Going the other direction it is definitely dependent on the time, although we joke that we average 55 by going 20 for several miles, see an opening and get up to 85 when we slam on our brakes to go 20 again.

fshagan 06-25-2008 12:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elhigh (Post 38061)
They're assuming a 100K life on a Prius? Why? Or is that just for the batteries? Good news, they're easy to replace.

That's why I love driving older used cars. They're already obsolete, so no worries there. And as it turns out, they hypermile just fine.

The battery warranty is 150,000 miles in California. AutoBlogGreen says Toyota's out-of-warranty battery claims are 0.003% (that would include the other states where the battery has a 100,000 mile warranty). Replacement costs are down to about $3000, from the original $5000 (it never was $10,000). Link.

One advantage of older cars is that are saving a ton of money, and being as green as you can be because you aren't junking a car and creating a new one (an energy intensive process for sure). And usually the parts are less expensive when they do need repair. I usually keep my cars for 8 to 10 years.

Lazarus 06-25-2008 08:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fshagan (Post 38120)
One advantage of older cars is that are saving a ton of money, and being as green as you can be because you aren't junking a car and creating a new one (an energy intensive process for sure). And usually the parts are less expensive when they do need repair. I usually keep my cars for 8 to 10 years.

So in 8 to 10 years what do you do? Buy another 8-10 year old car? You can by a high FE car now( or one that's a year old) and in 8-10 year can say the same thing and you saved a ton of cash on fuel if driven in an eco fashion and they are so much cleaner(emissions) then 10 year old cars.

fshagan 06-25-2008 09:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lazarus (Post 38188)
So in 8 to 10 years what do you do? Buy another 8-10 year old car? You can by a high FE car now( or one that's a year old) and in 8-10 year can say the same thing and you saved a ton of cash on fuel if driven in an eco fashion and they are so much cleaner(emissions) then 10 year old cars.

I usually buy a new car after I wear one out. Its solely by personal preference, because your method is obviously "smarter" from a financial sense (you don't take a 30% depreciation hit on a car that's a year old, but you do when you drive a brand new one off the lot). The poster I was responding to was saying that buying and modding old cars was an economical and green way to go, and he's right.

2010 starts the new plug in hybrids and, probably, more cars like the Aptera. That would be about the right time to replace my other truck (although it would be relegated to the side yard to pull the boat when needed, and the Prius would become my wife's commuter.)

metroschultz 06-25-2008 12:29 PM

I drive "Older" cars
They are usually "Gifts" from customers who no longer want to keep them up or make major repairs. Sometimes you can find them on the road. Be ready with your cell and a wrecker on call.
I fix them, thereby keeping them from a jukyard / landfill and resell them. I don't make lots of money on the vehicle, I break even and sometimes a little more. Occasionally I get a great deal and these are the ones that keep my wife happy so I can have my "toys". It's my way of helping people who need transportation and reducing the carbon footprint of new vehicles.
By attaining a car for $0 and spending $1,000 you can do a lot of repairs.
Typically I sell a vehicle that has 150,000 miles on the clock. After I am through with my re-furbishing I am certain it will last another 100,000 miles.
Just another way to help.
Schultz.

Lazarus 06-25-2008 03:49 PM

Personally I think that the car to own is one that does not have a car payment whether it's new or 20 years old. Just get the cleanest most efficient one you can afford. You would be suprised what you can do with an extra 200-500 a month.

Keen 06-25-2008 04:33 PM

I think it's very important to consider the energy needed to make a new car. If the energy used to make a new car is even 1/4 of it's price it would take a very long time to make up that energy in fuel even if the new car is twice as fuel efficient. Someone who drives a Pickup into the ground every 20 years may be more green than someone who buys a new "prius" every 5 years.... Or maybe not. Just something to consider.

jamesqf 06-25-2008 09:47 PM

"I think it's very important to consider the energy needed to make a new car."

You could even take it a step further, and consider where the energy's likely to be coming from. Though in a global economy you can't easily pin it down 100%, if you buy a made-in-Japan Japanese car, or a French car, much less of the energy input is likely to come from fossil fuels than for one built in the US or (shudder) China.

Warhawk626 06-26-2008 09:37 PM

1: An H3 is more expensive than a Prius
2: An H3 is much less efficient than a Prius
3: You can't just say poof and have an H3 appear, they have to be built .
4: An H3 is a hell of a lot closer to being obsolete than a prius.
5: That twit needs to get her foot off the floorboard..500 miles to a tank pfft.:turtle:

NeilBlanchard 06-27-2008 01:23 PM

Hello,

Here's the best rebuttal to this myth that I've seen:

No, The Hummer Actually Isn't More Energy Efficient Than A Prius
Quote:

Let's Put This "Debate" To Rest

Ever wonder where urban legends come from? Like the one about Paul McCartney being dead, or the one about Paris Hilton finding religion in prison and producing a series of self-help DVDs titled 'Caged Wisdom'? How about this doozy: a Hummer is more energy efficient over its lifetime than a Prius.

Like most urban legends, it’s hard to pinpoint the source. Was it an article by James L. Martin of the 60 Plus Association (60 Plus Association ///), a lobbying group for the elderly that desires to be the conservative alternative to the American Association of Retired Persons (AARP)? Or was it the story by student reporter Chris Demorro that was picked up by the factually fastidious Rush Limbaugh? (Demorro says that he was actually coming at the Prius from the left, believing that hybrid technology is inferior to all electric vehicles.)

Or was it the publication of a study conducted by CNW Marketing Research? The study was titled "Dust to Dust: The Energy Cost of New Vehicles from Concept to Disposal". The study's most controversial finding indicated that if one factors in design and development, manufacturing, use of the vehicle over its projected lifetime, and disposal of the vehicle once it's no longer usable, the Prius is actually less energy efficient than the Hummer, at a per-mile energy cost of $3.25 versus the H2's per-mile energy cost of $3.03.

Regardless, the right-wing media has, of course, had a field day with this. The Prius has become the standard-bearer for energy efficient vehicles. Reporters and bloggers who are more interested in being provocative than accurate have used this study to blast the Prius, hybrids, and the fuel-efficiency movement in general.

The original study, while not as tendentious as the follow up articles by Martin and others, is skewed by indefensible assumptions. These assumptions, along with those of the Martin and Demorro articles, are noted below:

1. Let's spread the Hummer's costs over lots of vehicles. Let's spread the Prius' costs over..the Prius.

Wanting to establish the “lifecycle” energy cost of a product is both desirable and admirable. But one must be very careful about how this is done. CNW’s first mistake was to take the energy costs of the design/development stage of hybrid technology and spread them over the life of the Prius alone. Meanwhile, the development costs of the Hummer, which is basically a high-speed tractor that didn't require any breakthrough technology to develop, are spread over numerous vehicles.

CNW acknowledges that the Prius' cost per mile will inevitably fall as hybrid technology is spread to more cars. In a document on their website entitled "Why 100,000 Miles for Prius" they note:

"And as I pointed out in the past, the energy cost per mile is unequivocally going to decline for Prius over time as the technology continues to spread across other models and the disposal/scrap industry learns how to deal with its high-tech materials and components."

The fact is, failing to adjust these costs in advance undermines the conclusions of the study and renders it meaningless. But that’s hardly the only problem.

2. Demorro: “Building a Toyota Prius causes more environmental damage than a Hummer that is on the road for three times longer than a Prius.”

The development costs are not only spread over too few vehicles, they are also spread over too few miles. CNW assumes that the life of a Prius will be only 100,000 miles compared to the 300,000-mile life of a Hummer. And this assumption is based on: nothing. Just the fact that Prius drivers seem to drive less than Hummer drivers and that new technology gets replaced by newer technology (in which case, the Hummer would last even less than 100,000 miles.) It’s as if the CNW authors had never heard of the used car market.

Again, just adjusting this assumption would undermine the argument that the Prius is less energy efficient than the Hummer. But there’s more.

3. Martin and Demorro also include “facts” that were not included in the CNW study: “(T)he Prius is partly driven by a battery which contains nickel. The nickel is mined and smelted at a plant in Sudbury, Ontario. This plant has caused so much environmental damage to the surrounding environment that NASA has used the ‘dead zone’ around the plant to test moon rovers. The area around the plant is devoid of any life for miles.

The plant is the source of all the nickel found in a Prius’ battery and Toyota purchases 1,000 tons annually. Dubbed the “Superstack”, the plague-factory has spread sulfur dioxide across northern Ontario, becoming every environmentalist’s nightmare.”

Boy, the use of nickel in an automobile must be unique to the Prius and a substantial amount of that Sudbury plant’s production…

Uh, not exactly. This plant puts out 95,000 tons of nickel annually. So the 1,000 tons of nickel that Toyota puts into its batteries accounts for about 1.1% of the annual output and should account for the same percentage of annual pollution.

This is hardly a surprise as nickel is used in many products including many parts used in automobiles: spark plugs and various alloys (especially stainless steel). The Prius uses nickel in more than its battery. It uses nickel in its steel plated parts and electronics. But, the Hummer uses twice as much nickel in its non-battery applications. Unfortunately, both cars use nickel and contribute to the environmental damage from nickel processing.

4. The Martin/Demorro misdiagnoses continue with, “All of this would be bad enough in and of itself; however, the journey to make a hybrid doesn’t end there. The nickel produced by this disastrous plant is shipped via massive container ship to the largest nickel refinery in Europe. From there, the nickel hops over to China to produce ‘nickel foam.’ From there, it goes to Japan. Finally, the completed batteries are shipped to the United States, finalizing the around-the-world trip required to produce a single Prius battery. Are these not sounding less and less like environmentally sound cars and more like a farce? No doubt about it…that round trip for the battery production takes energy.”

Presumably, the authors never heard of globalization. Guess what: virtually every car is built with parts that come from places all over the world. And none of them get there without using energy.

For example, let’s compare the battery on the Prius (120lb) to the tires on the Hummer (240lb). The Hummer’s original equipment tires are made overseas by BF Goodrich (owned by Michelin) using rubber, steel, and carbon from many sources around the world. I’d guess that shipping them takes more energy than shipping the Prius battery.

6. Demorro: "The energy cost per mile of the Prius, after the EPS mpg stats were revised a few months ago, now puts the Toyota within spitting distance of cars like the Chevy Aveo, which costs less than half what the Prius costs."

Clearly wrong. The Chevy Aveo is revised to about 26 mpg (combined city/highway), the Prius at 46 combined. But this understates the desirability of hybrids: the Prius is a midsized car, while the Aveo is a compact. The superiority of hybrids is that they can permit larger, presumably more comfortable vehicles to get better mileage than smaller vehicles. It’s one thing to want to make a dubious case for the Hummer, but for the Aveo? Come on.

It may be just a coincidence, but the promotion of the Aveo alongside the Hummer raises the following question: is all of this for the benefit of General Motors, the manufacturer of both? Did CNW select the Hummer to discourage hybrid sales or merely because it's a good, controversial marketing hook for their study? The fact that they included the Martin piece on their website: "Totaling all the energy expended, from design to junkyard, a Hummer may be a better bargain" doesn't give one much faith in the notion of CNW being neutral researchers without an agenda.

The bottom line is, regardless of the hype, we just hope that skewed facts and biased reporting won't deter interested consumers from purchasing hybrids - or completely electric vehicles for that matter. CNW's own findings show that purchasing more Priuses will ultimately offset the energy used in developing them, and allow for hybrid technology to spread to multiple models, further reducing energy costs per mile. And that’s no legend.

ttoyoda 06-27-2008 01:39 PM

Quote:

No, that doesn't happen in practice, although I suppose you could discharge the battery enough or be in acceleration mode long enough to cause the computer to cut off the electric motor and leave you with ICE alone. I've never heard of that happening, though.

I'll take your word for it, I have never even ridden in one. This guy was so pissed off at turtle in the car that he put a turbo in it, and then wrote a 5 part article about it, he claims to get better mileage. Then again he lives at the top of a mountaing or something. Kinda neat.

autospeed article
Not to whine, but I kinda like the old way of showing urls better...:)

12voltsolar 06-27-2008 01:59 PM

How is she only getting 500 mile range on her tank, in a Prius? I've done that on 14+ gallons in my AWD wagon.

fshagan 06-27-2008 11:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ttoyoda (Post 38986)
I'll take your word for it, I have never even ridden in one. This guy was so pissed off at turtle in the car that he put a turbo in it, and then wrote a 5 part article about it, he claims to get better mileage. Then again he lives at the top of a mountaing or something. Kinda neat.

autospeed article
Not to whine, but I kinda like the old way of showing urls better...:)

That's a Gen 1 Prius, built up to the 2004 model year. It was different in several aspects, so I don't know if it had a "turtle" light or not (the new one does not.) In one part, he mentions that the hybrid system on that model worked seamlessly with the supercharger, just charging the batteries more than usual. He's certainly miles ahead of me in terms of mechanical skill!

Unforgiven 04-02-2009 11:48 PM

Sadly the reality is that even with the increase costs of recycling the heavy metals and special electronics in a Prius, it is still far more cost effective to do that recycling as opposed to trying to build hydrogen fuel cell vehicles. Battery recyclers are out there already, so the fudging of the costs of scraping a Prius or other hybrid down are actually slightly exaggerated. It can be done, and without that much fuss.

Sidenote... how many of you actually see a Prius driven like a hypermiler? Or do you instead see them barrelling along at 70-90 mph in the fast lane like I do...

jamesqf 04-03-2009 11:54 AM

So which uses less gas? Hypermiling a Hummer to get 17 mpg instead of 15, or driving a Prius at 90 and getting 40 mpg?

shovel 04-07-2009 02:51 PM

My opinion is that it's retarded to blame the tools. Blame people who buy the wrong car.

A H3 is an off-road capable 4x4. It has skid plates, lockable differentials, long suspension travel that necessitates large parachute wheel wells, large tires to overcome difficult terrain, tires pushed out past the body line to protect the sheet metal from that terrain & improve lateral stability... not to mention a beefy drivetrain able to handle serious torque from the transfer case's gear reduction, serious heat and abuse from low speed, high strain use....

All of that stuff is stupid to haul around back and forth in the city. That doesn't make the VEHICLE stupid, it makes the BUYER stupid.

The vehicle itself is still brilliant for those who make regular use of its features. People who CHOOSE a lifestyle that includes outdoorsmanship and are willing to pay the increased fuel and maintenance cost for a vehicle that will get them as far away from the noise and rules and chaos of civilisation as possible.

People who drive it just for the image of toughness, still they're willing to pay the fuel cost. That's on them, not the vehicle. No different than anyone driving a muscle car or pickup truck that don't see the track or farm, respectively. No reason whatsoever to single out the hummer. The H3 is essentially the next generation Chevy Blazer ZR2, so why not hate on those too? The H3 is essentially the GM version of the Jeep Wrangler, so why not hate on those too? The H3 is essentially the GM version of the Benz G500, why not hate on those too? and so forth...

roflwaffle 04-07-2009 04:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fshagan (Post 37708)
but its not worth it to risk your life at 55 MPH on a Southern California freeway!

Risk your life at 55? You know that braking distance increases according to the square of speed and that truck drivers cause half as many fatal accidents per mile compared to the general public, right? :thumbup:

jamesqf 04-08-2009 12:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shovel (Post 96330)
People who CHOOSE a lifestyle that includes outdoorsmanship and are willing to pay the increased fuel and maintenance cost for a vehicle that will get them as far away from the noise and rules and chaos of civilisation as possible.

Except that the people who think they can do that by off-road driving are just deluding themselves, because they're bringing the noise & chaos with them. If you want to get away from civilization, drive to the trailhead, then WALK.

shovel 04-08-2009 11:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jamesqf (Post 96487)
Except that the people who think they can do that by off-road driving are just deluding themselves, because they're bringing the noise & chaos with them. If you want to get away from civilization, drive to the trailhead, then WALK.

Everyone does different things to make life worth living in between workin' and sleepin' hours. There are plenty of things people do which annoy me but I still respect their right to do it.

I can't speak for the East, but out West 99% or more of off-highway driving in street legal vehicles is done on legal trails. Legal trails as in actual designated roads.
For example the famed Rubicon is actually a road, no different from the I5 highway - except of course that it's not likely you'll be seeing any Prius' drive that road.

In other words since these trails are in fact roads, nobody would complain they are driven on if they were paved like any of the millions of miles of paved roads out there... so why the complaint that they're driven without pavement?

I get upset at yahoos who drive off-road (as in, blaze new trails that don't go anywhere, when an existing road is already in place) because not only do they make an area ugly, they also give ammunition to the jerks who want to close areas down.

Walking into the wilderness is great, but who decides at what point you park and start walking? The grand canyon is 200 miles of beautiful desert away from me. Do I drive on the paved road all the way to the rim, THEN park? Should I start walking from home, because it's ecologically irresponsible to lay down 200 miles of asphalt and then drive on it? Do I drive all the way out the old hualapai road which is unpaved & unsuitable to 2wd vehicles but still a perfectly legal, driveable road for high clearance vehicles and goes all the way to the river?

The whole crux of the eco movement is to minimize man's impact on nature, implying man is the one force of the universe that exists outside of nature. If we are to go with this definition, then the single worst thing any human can do to the environment is make more humans because those offspring and their offspring ad infinitum will consume resources and create pollution with anything they do. I can't have children. So I'm more eco-friendly than just about anyone without even doing anything. Nobody with offspring had better try to tell me my legal use of legal-if-challenging roads is "bad for the environment"... that would be an error of logic on their part. Frankly nobody with a car should try to tell me my legal use of legal roads that don't happen to have asphalt on 'em is bad.... what's worse for the environment? A 20 foot swath of asphalt times a thousand miles or a dusty pair of tracks that would grow over in 5 years if left unused?


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