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BrianAbington 02-17-2009 06:40 PM

Prius VS. TDI (which to buy)
 
My car will have about 100,000 miles by about this time next year. So we are begining to save up to buy something newer.

So Toyota vs VW which would you prefer?

I like the prius because you can go all elctric around town...if you drive slow enough.

I like the thought of converting the TDI to run off of vegtable oil.

Both would be used and probably '05-'07 models to keep the price down.

What are your opinions?

budomove 02-17-2009 07:07 PM

The TDI is an awesome car that I have always wanted, but there seem to be so many lemons when it comes to VWs. Diesel is so artificially high right now, yet VWs hold their high value due to the fact that they are rare and sought after. If cost of ownership and maintainence is high on your list, say higher than fun, then i would go with the prius. Hybrids are dirt cheap now due to low gas prices, yet used TDIs are still way expensive. When a turbo on a TDI goes, expect to pay out 2k, same with the injection pump. Not to mention annoying little things like the same headlight burning out time and time again, headlight harness needing replacement, window motors and regulators needing replacement (several times), and just basic electric items that seem engineered to fail in order to bring in more revenue...that or the fact that they can't build VWs well in the Mexican plant which is where the TDIs are produced if i am not mistaken.

dremd 02-17-2009 09:41 PM

I like my TDI; but I wouldn't buy a PD(04-06); I'm just not a fan of motors that wear cams that quickly . . . . they also do not perform as well on SVO.

If you want 05-07 I say go Prius. 99-03 Go TDI . . .

However we should also consider how you drive, in town Highway? How serious are you about eco-driving . . . . Are emissions very important to you? willing to go grather up oil? etc etc. . . . .

Ryland 02-18-2009 01:50 AM

i would buy a TDI if I only did long distance highway driving and was good about keeping strict to the matenice of the vehicle, from talking to TDI owners it sounds like they last a little longer then older VW's but not much, expect to spend money getting timing belts changed before it brakes and destroys your engine, electrical problems up the wazoo, suspension, cv joints, they are kind of like owning a Harley, people who own Harley's like to fix them, people seem to buy VW's because the are like how they feel, but they either turn in to a hobby or a money pit.
people I know who own Toyota's just drive them, and drive them forever, Toyotas are the car that seems good for the person who forgets to take it in to get things fixed.

jamesqf 02-18-2009 02:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Binger (Post 88333)
My car will have about 100,000 miles by about this time next year. So we are begining to save up to buy something newer.

Err... why? For most Japanese cars, the first 100K miles is the break-in period :-)

cfg83 02-18-2009 03:01 AM

Binger -

Since you're still saving, why not wait to see if the new Honda Insight is as "low cost hybrid" as it claims to be?

CarloSW2

BrianAbington 02-18-2009 05:59 AM

to answer both of those...my wife and I want to get a larger car, because we (especially she) do not feel that the mirage is a safe car to take our son around in.

I've considered the new insight...and I think that we would like to stay around $15,000ish...this would be just over our price range...yet its a good option. However in nebraska you really bend over and take it on taxes when you buy a "brand new" car.

mhmitszach 02-18-2009 08:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Binger (Post 88412)
to answer both of those...my wife and I want to get a larger car, because we (especially she) do not feel that the mirage is a safe car to take our son around in.

I've considered the new insight...and I think that we would like to stay around $15,000ish...this would be just over our price range...yet its a good option. However in nebraska you really bend over and take it on taxes when you buy a "brand new" car.

correct me if i'm wrong, but didn't the stimulus package have a provision to remove sales tax on brand new vehicles?

Vwbeamer 02-18-2009 08:29 AM

The turbo is "only" $750.00. I replaced mine all ready.:) I agree, the build quality on a VW is not as good as a Toyota. BTW, I expect mine to 400K miles.

The TDi will out run the toyota, especially on the highway and up hills.


Quote:

Originally Posted by budomove (Post 88341)
The TDI is an awesome car that I have always wanted, but there seem to be so many lemons when it comes to VWs. Diesel is so artificially high right now, yet VWs hold their high value due to the fact that they are rare and sought after. If cost of ownership and maintainence is high on your list, say higher than fun, then i would go with the prius. Hybrids are dirt cheap now due to low gas prices, yet used TDIs are still way expensive. When a turbo on a TDI goes, expect to pay out 2k, same with the injection pump. Not to mention annoying little things like the same headlight burning out time and time again, headlight harness needing replacement, window motors and regulators needing replacement (several times), and just basic electric items that seem engineered to fail in order to bring in more revenue...that or the fact that they can't build VWs well in the Mexican plant which is where the TDIs are produced if i am not mistaken.


budomove 02-18-2009 09:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vwbeamer (Post 88417)
The turbo is "only" $750.00. I replaced mine all ready.:)

Wow, 750 is not bad at all, at what mileage did this occur? What other repairs and at what mileage have you done? ...$750 is for a rebuilt turbo not including labor though, correct? How much labor is it? Not saying it's the case with the 1.9l TDI, but I know on the Audi R4 you need to actually remove the engine to get to both the turbos that are mounted underneath. :o

Quote:

Originally Posted by mhmitszach (Post 88415)
correct me if i'm wrong, but didn't the stimulus package have a provision to remove sales tax on brand new vehicles?

THis is true!

"CAR BUYER TAX DEDUCTION For the rest of 2009, you’ll be able to deduct the state and local sales and excise taxes you pay on the purchase of a new (not used) car, light truck, recreational vehicle or motorcycle.

This will be an “above-the-line deduction,” according to Clint Stretch, the managing principal of tax policy at Deloitte L.L.C. in Washington. That means that you can take it regardless of whether you itemize other deductions on your tax return.

Mark Luscombe, principal tax analyst for CCH, a tax information service, notes that state sales taxes alone can run 6 to 7 percent, before any county or local tax kicks in. That said, if you trade in a vehicle, your taxable purchase price may be lower.

Eligibility for this tax break begins to phase out for single people with adjusted gross income over $125,000 or $250,000 for married couples filing jointly. And the deduction does not apply on spending above $49,500."

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/13/yo...3money.html?em

tasdrouille 02-18-2009 10:24 AM

I would advise against running veggie in a TDI, especially the newer ones >03. Unless you're very anal about it, you WILL end up with very costly repairs. Go with biodiesel instead, much safer.

$750 must be for a rebuilt turbo, else you have to tell me where you get them! You have to add labor to that, roughly 3 hours. You can even do it yourself if you are mechanically inclined, there are very good howtos on tdiclub.com.

If you drive the car hard now and then, to make sure the vanes do not stick with soot the turbo should last for a very long time.

Pretty often the turbo is replaced when it did not really needed to. If your vanes are sticky your might just need to have it disassembled and cleaned, a 5 hours job. Still less expensive than a new turbo. Oftentimes the vacuum actuator fails, if you go to the dealership they'll replace the whole turbo unit, as the actuator alone is not a part they have. However, vacuum actuators can be bought aftermarket for roughly $100.

Injection pumps failed en masse when usld was introduced. Lubrication packages in the fuel have improved since and you don't hear much about those failing anymore. If you're still worried you just add a bit of ashless 2 cycle oil, or even better 2% biodiesel, and your pump won't fail.

jamesqf 02-18-2009 12:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Binger (Post 88412)
to answer both of those...my wife and I want to get a larger car, because we (especially she) do not feel that the mirage is a safe car to take our son around in.

If you are really concerned about safety, you might want to do some research into what cars are actually safest, instead of going with your feelings. Size is only one factor, and far from the most important. That (provably false) gut feeling that bigger equals safer is part of what got us into the SUV mess.

TomO 02-18-2009 12:29 PM

I voted for TDI if you convert to bio-diesel and do lots of highway traveling. I'd vote for Prius though if you do mostly in town driving.

The vote for TDI is because those motors can last 300K+ miles and if you convert to bio-diesel the operating costs would be much cheaper than the Prius (Prius having to have the battery pack replaced after roughly 5 years of service under heavy use)


EDIT: I added a poll to help visualize the votes.

cfg83 02-18-2009 12:59 PM

Binger -

Quote:

Originally Posted by Binger (Post 88412)
to answer both of those...my wife and I want to get a larger car, because we (especially she) do not feel that the mirage is a safe car to take our son around in.

I've considered the new insight...and I think that we would like to stay around $15,000ish...this would be just over our price range...yet its a good option. However in nebraska you really bend over and take it on taxes when you buy a "brand new" car.

Ok, that makes sense. You've been doing some number crunching and a (new) Insight didn't fall into your price window. Yeah, I always imagine the little kiddie in the center-rear of the car for maximum safety. Get him two big super-soft cuddly stuffed Panda-bears as passengers for each side.

(I voted Prius)

CarloSW2

Wilden 02-18-2009 02:17 PM

I've given a vote for the TDi, simply because, if you treat it right, it'll last donkeys years (the turbo notwithstanding).

dremd 02-18-2009 05:13 PM

TDI Turbo swap is easy; I've had one off on a Bug before; 1~2 hours for the entire swap.

Big Dave 02-18-2009 06:28 PM

Do TDIs eat turbos? I never heard that. I've driven diesels since 1983 and never had any turbo problems. Any OHC engine needs timing belts changed from time to time. If I could fold myself up into one, I'd prefer the VW.

Deezler 02-18-2009 06:28 PM

TDI all the way. I'm a little biased though, hehe.

Seriously though, I've owned my TDI since 2005 (2nd owner), and the only maintenance I've EVER done is oil and filter changes. I am getting ready for my 100k maintenance items though, which should run me about a grand. Then I am set for another 100k. Not bad at all.

There is no particular reason why the turbo or injection pumps should ever fail. Loads of people make it to 300k miles on the originals, though you hear more often from those who don't. New turbos can be found everywhere for around $900. Most of the people who think that TDIs are junk drove them like little old ladies all day long. You do have to exercise the engine to keep it running clean. To me this only means one nice full throttle pull after my highway cruising is over. This keeps the turbo clean and freely moving, and gets everything nice and hot. Also, the electrical gremlins vary widely from year to year, which is exactly why I bought a 2003. My engine and vehicle had been exactly the same since 99.5 so all the bugs were mostly worked out.

I would not advise veggie oil in any TDI, it can work, but only for so long. Bio-diesel for sure though!

BrianAbington 02-18-2009 06:59 PM

If I were to run biodiesel which is better to run B20? B50? B100?

From what I have found most places in the omaha area use bio diesel that is made from soy rather than recycled resturant stuff.

For those of you who are against using veggi oil kits...what are your reasons? I have read alot of bad...but it seems that most people who complain the most about them use poorly constructed kits that don't have enough heat in the oil by the time it gets to the rail. Or they were put on an engine that already was on its way to failure and they blame it on speeding up the failure process...which theres really no way to tell.

I like the idea of grease kits. My drive is 40miles both ways...and the really cool thing is that there are good stretches at the begining and end to drive on for the purge cycle.
5 min from home to the highway...50min on the highway...5min through town to work...the the opposite way. This is exactly how the companys selling these kits recomend they be used.

Still up for debate...

I really like the newer jetta wagon. Very nice car with lots and lots of cargo space.
I also like the prius...but I do feel like im in a luxury car when in the jettas.

dremd 02-18-2009 11:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big Dave (Post 88477)
Do TDIs eat turbos?

If you listen to the dealer. . . . .
My car has 190,000 miles on it original turbo. The dealer told me (last week) that the turbo was completely shot, and I needed an injector pump ASAP. LOL


Quote:

Originally Posted by Big Dave (Post 88477)
Any OHC engine needs timing belts changed from time to time.

Well some have chains that do last very long time.
That said you can get the 100,000 mile timing belt setup for the TDI no problem. Only "issue" is you need several special tools to swap the belt.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big Dave (Post 88477)
If I could fold myself up into one, I'd prefer the VW.

If you don't mind my asking, how big are you?
Don't forget you can buy a Passat TDI.

dremd 02-18-2009 11:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Binger (Post 88481)
If I were to run biodiesel which is better to run B20? B50? B100?

As high of a percentage as you can get away with. (Bio-Diesel Gels much easier than Petro)



Quote:

Originally Posted by Binger (Post 88481)
For those of you who are against using veggi oil kits...what are your reasons?

Water, water and more water.
If you have a centrifuge (gets the water out), willingness to tinker and a long commute I could recommend nothing other than an ALH TDI, a "conversion" setup, and a 5 speed in a Jetta, Golf, Passat.

Vwbeamer 02-19-2009 06:52 AM

The turbo on my TDi went away at 97K, it blew the oil seal, bearings shot, turbine hit the housing. Lucky that my motor didn't eat some of the turbo. It was no rebuilding it.

The 100K timing belt changes are a pain also. On gas motor , the owner is better able to change his own belt, on the TDi to do it correctly, you need about $300 in special tools.

My car is chipped(upsolute) and i used to tow my 1500 lbs 1956 beetle with it. I this shorten the turbo life I'm sure.

The replacement was new, from a place in new England, i can't remember the name. They sell mostly VW parts.

It took me about 6 hours of work to replace it, it's not hard, but it's hard to get it.

A dealer charges 1600-2000, so the OP is correct in that.

almightybmw 02-19-2009 08:58 AM

VW must be using a pure sh_t turbo. My parents old 1988 Mazda 626 GT is still on the stock turbo with 210K miles, motor never rebuild. 3 radiators yes (plastic endtanks suck), but no other motor work done. IHI RHB5 VJ11 was the turbo. Water and oil cooled.

If VW uses such crap turbos on the TDI's, I'm inclined to remove it and replace it with a better known reliable turbo. No reason to replace failing components with another one that'll fail in the same time period. Upgrade to something more reliable instead of wasting money on maintenance.

Deezler 02-19-2009 09:39 AM

Whoa whoa whoa, this is getting out of hand. VW does not use a crappy turbo.

They did opt for a VNT design to make the engine as driveable as possible. This turbo can spool to 6psi of boost at 1400 rpm and 15psi by 1800rpm, holding 15 psi all the way through 5000 rpm. It is a very capable turbo. The wide range of vane position makes it susceptible to a few issues potentially. People who never use the full range of the VNT vanes or get the turbo and engine hot enough by driving too slow will accumulate soot in the entire mechanism and suffer performance issues relating to this. The dealership will nearly ALWAYS tell you the turbo is shot and needs replacing, in a bid to generate $1000 of income for themselves. Unfortunately people usually believe them and then complain loudly on the internet when all they needed was an actuator cleaning.

On the other side of things are people like vwbeamer who run a crappy chip tune (no offense, but upsolute sucks as is known to overboost), then pull a heavy trailer and expect everything to be fine. vwbeamer, do you have a boost gauge? The turbo is very durable under certain conditions but becomes endangered at anything over 20 psi. It is also very close to the surge regime during full throttle under 1800rpm. Operating at heavy boost and low rpms will shorten its lifespan for sure.

One can find many people over 200k miles on tdiclub.com still on their stock turbo (and fuel injection pump).

Oh and per the biodiesel question, yeah, use as high a % as you can. I see you are in the midwest, so you'll want to run a B20 mixture whenever the low temperatures can dip under 35 degrees F. But 100% is fine all summer long.

Vwbeamer 02-19-2009 11:28 AM

The upsolute was about all that was available in 2001. The car is rated to tow 2000 lbs, so a 1500 lb car ( there is no trailer, the car was towed on a tow bar) should be fine.

But no doubt the combination of the two shorten the turbo's life. I still have the chip, but don't tow anymore. I expect the new turbo to last longer.

The fuel pumps never had a problem until they took the sulfer out of the fuel as it lubricated the pump. Clean Biodesiel is a very good lubricant, and can take the place of sulfer. I run 10% bio just to lub the pump.

Others ran into problems when using Biodesiel that still had Lye or methane in it, both are very corrosive and can destroy the fuel system.

Deezler 02-19-2009 12:11 PM

Good points VwBeam. Sorry, didn't mean to jump to conclusions.

Running B20 here in Michigan is starting to really annoy me. Regular diesel exhaust just smells so toxic in comparison. Can't wait to get back on the pure stuff come May.

almightybmw 02-20-2009 02:52 AM

I certainly didn't mean it to sound like VW used a crap turbo, as any vaned turbo isn't going to be crap. But all the fail replies about replacing the turbo and injection pump.... Well, 2 options: they got rare lemons OR know jack squat about mechanics and take the stealership's word. I guess most people don't know diesel's need to be worked to last longer?
bah. Things I take for granted.

Either way I still want a 1997 Passat wagon with the 25gal tank. 1000 miles/refill is a good goal.

COcyclist 02-20-2009 11:21 AM

City or Highway???
 
Binger, I'll try to answer a question that may not have been addressed. First a disclaimer; I have owned an 04 TDi Golf for about 2 years and I love it. Doing some mild hypermiling you can reach 60 mpg on the highway. If you do need to pass or accelerate quickly there is lots of power on tap and short bursts of acceleration don't totally destroy your trip average.

You asked about straight veggie oil conversions. From everything I have read the TDi has very precise fuel injection due to computer control, extremely high injection pressure and small injector orifices. This makes it a poor candidate for hot oil conversion. If you are really motivated to do the SVO conversion the older mechanical injected diesels are more tolerant of running heated vegetable oil.

BTW the TDi requires no "conversion" to run biodiesel. It can gel in very cold weather though. A friend of mine had his B20 blend clog the in-tank fuel filter during cold weather. That is why you see lower percentages of bioiesel recommended for winter driving.

In the end I think it comes down to your type of driving. If you do mostly highway driving get a manual tranny TDi (and read up on the maintenance requirements i.e. 505.01 spec. oil for a PD engine) If you do mostly city stop-and-go driving get a Prius with it's CVT (automatic).:thumbup:

BrianAbington 02-20-2009 09:33 PM

the drive is mostly highway...38miles each way...and 5 miles on both ends of that are stop and go. The whole highway part is on a 2 lane highway, 65mph all the way. The County dump is along the route...but I work third shift so I don't have to worry about stopping for trucks.
The route is about 3/4ths hilly 1/4th completly flat.

tasdrouille 02-21-2009 06:51 AM

Mostly highway, hilly, you want the TDI.

Katana 02-22-2009 03:36 AM

If you're going for mileage get the VW, if you're going for environmental impact get the VW.
Doing highway miles with stop start, the extra torque of a TDI will be much better assuming you're driving a manual gearbox.

I remember reading the prius does more environmental damage before it gets out the factory than a normal car does in several hundred thousand miles of driving.

dremd 02-22-2009 09:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by almightybmw (Post 88548)
VW must be using a pure sh_t turbo. My parents old 1988 Mazda 626 GT is still on the stock turbo with 210K miles, motor never rebuild. 3 radiators yes (plastic endtanks suck), but no other motor work done. IHI RHB5 VJ11 was the turbo. Water and oil cooled.

I do realize that this has already been replied to; but my has 190,000 miles on it with zero problems. I puled the inlet hose off yesterday to check for shaft play. None.

Now the real issue with VW (here anyways) is the dealers (stealers) I had to drive 72 miles (each way) for the nearest one (brake switch recall) When I get it back I have a series of new issues 1) No more splash shield 2) Injection timing all of a sudden was so far off it took 1 minute + to start cold 3) grease on steering wheel. They also claimed that I needed a Turbo And Injection pump. I did contact VW about my complaints and got nothing for my efforts.
So in the long run replacing a $30 switch took me nearly 150 miles of driving, 2 days, a big headache, and a splash shield.

Sorry for the rant; I only have experience with 1 dealer I *hope* that all of the rest of them are great.

tasdrouille 02-22-2009 12:32 PM

Rule number 1 of owning a TDI: Never go to the dealer, EVER! Except maybe as a last resort to get a part, but don't let them touch your car. Head over to TDIclub.com and find yourself a local trusted mechanic. You'll end up a lot happier with more cash in your pocket.

dremd 02-22-2009 09:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tasdrouille (Post 89002)
Rule number 1 of owning a TDI: Never go to the dealer, EVER!

Yup, and I knew that, I just thought that they would leave me alone on a recall . . . . .

I have plenty of friends who bring their toyotas (some 20 years old) to Toyota and I don't feel that they get raped.

Vwbeamer 02-23-2009 08:57 AM

That's th thing with a TDi, you more or less have to do some research and know a little about the car.

If you depend on the dealer, your going to end up paying a lot more, and the dealers know very little about the cars.

Luckly, I'm, able to do all my own work.

I can not wait until Honda or Toyota starts selling a desiel here.

MetroMPG 02-23-2009 09:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Katana (Post 88983)
I remember reading the prius does more environmental damage before it gets out the factory than a normal car does in several hundred thousand miles of driving.

If you're referring to the CNW Marketing "report", that was widely debunked.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TomO (Post 88440)
(Prius having to have the battery pack replaced after roughly 5 years of service under heavy use)

I haven't heard this before. Link?

Also, the battery is covered by an 8 year, 100k - 150k mile warranty (depending on state). source

Piwoslaw 02-23-2009 09:40 AM

I vote go with the best of both worlds: get either one and convert it to a plug-in biodiesel hybrid :) :)
Seriously, I drive a turbodiesel and can't complain. I'm still on pure diesel fuel for the winter, but come spring I'll start experimenting with bio. Veggie is for older diesels, not the new hi-tech gizmos.
One of the downsides of a hybrid are that the batteries are an environmental problem, both producing and recycling, and you'll have to replace them every few years.

MetroMPG 02-23-2009 09:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Piwoslaw (Post 89127)
you'll have to replace them every few years.

Sorry, but this is nonsense. (Did you see the post above yours regarding battery warranty?) Where are you getting your information?

If hybrid packs routinely needed replacing every few years, the vehicles would not be selling at all, instead of going on 10+ years in North America.

EDIT: I'm not defending hybrids over diesel (in fact, I didn't even vote), but it irks me to see flatly incorrect claims about either platform being propagated.

Deezler 02-23-2009 10:12 AM

Agreed Metro. I get a lot of comments from co-workers clinging to their gas guzzlers about how hybrids are crap because you have to pay $15k to replace the batteries after a few years. I have never heard of anyone having to do this. The batteries do not FAIL. They simply lose some efficiency. Then what are you left with? A small efficient vehicle that maybe "only" gets 40 mpg instead of 45. All the Insights and Priuses from the 90s are still on the road, charging right along. Pun intended.

That being said, I think it is unwise to ignore the ecological and energy consumption impacts from mining the raw materials and producing the battery packs and other associated high tech devices necessary to implement a hybrid powertrain into a small car. The energy impact of a vehicle must always be considered over its entire lifetime and there is no doubt in my mind that the production of hybrid batteries has a heavy toll. Some of the newer, more mild hybrids might diminish this impact (such as the new insight). But in my mind if you are ever comparing two vehicles that get similar mileage figures, and one requires a few hundred pounds of heavy metals mined from the earth and precision manufactured with industrial chemicals, this must factor into one's considerations.

As for CNW, their methods are secret and agenda unclear. While their negative bias towards hybrids is well known, it is still interesting for helping to consider the total life cycle energy consumption of relative vehicles. One might note that the VW Jetta diesel in their study places best in its class.

Piwoslaw 02-23-2009 10:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MetroMPG (Post 89132)
Sorry, but this is nonsense. (Did you see the post above yours regarding battery warranty?) Where are you getting your information?

Sorry about that :( It seems you posted while I was still writing. I should have checked after posting, though.

What I had in mind about changing batteries was not about the owner paying for them, but about having to replace or get rid of them in the first place. Warranty or not, all sorts of stuff has to be mined and shipped back and forth around the planet before it finds its way into a car, and then that heavy mini-periodic table will be driven around for thounds of miles in the trunk before it gets recycled. At best, it really will be recycled, and not shipped to India for peasants to take apart with their bare hands. At least the dead weight part is partially compensated by reducing the size of the engine and fuel tank.

On the other hand, a diesel requires filters etc. which bring the FE down. Still, diesel technology, even the fancy TDI, is simpler than a hybrid.

I\'m still stubbornly voting for a biodiesel plug-in hybrid :P


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