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-   -   Progressive Automotive X-Prize [Final] Round (https://ecomodder.com/forum/showthread.php/progressive-automotive-x-prize-final-round-13636.html)

NeilBlanchard 06-21-2010 04:05 PM

Progressive Automotive X-Prize [Final] Round
 
[Edit: the Finals are now under way -- and I am adding links to new pictures at the end of the thread!]

Okay, I am at the Michigan Speedway, as a volunteer member of the Edison2 team -- Oliver Kuttner made this generous offer and I was all too happy to accept. I have a fair number of pictures, which I am starting to upload. I arrived Sunday (which I calling Day 1, even though it was just setting up; and I'll be here through Friday! :-)

We have been very busy so far, prep and cleaning up loose ends -- two of the four Edison2 cars go in for technical inspection today, and two go in tomorrow. The first Edison2 Very Light Car tandem (#95 which was the one without wheel pods at the Shakedown) passed this morning and the first of the two mainstream cars was in the process. The weight of the #95 car was 702 pounds. I not sure how this is figured, but it will be required to carry 99 pounds of ballast weight.

I saw the Aptera for my first time in person, it looks very good "in real life". And I got to sit in the driver's seat -- there is almost too much leg room, and I fit well, though there is not a lot of "extra" head room. (I'm 6'-4"). For that matter -- obviously, this is the first time I have seen any of the vehicles: the Illuminati Seven, the FVT eVaro, the Twike, the X-Tracers, etc., etc. Pretty cool stuff all of it!

The cars that had not completed all the tests in the Shakedown were here earlier last week and they are taking runs on the (very large, high banked) oval track. Other events will happen on the road track.

Tomorrow (Tuesday the 22nd) will be more tech inspections, and the "biggie" economy runs that are the raison d'Ítre are on Wednesday and Thursday! And actually there will also be economy runs on Friday, which is the Public Day, but that schedule has not been fully settled yet.

Pictures will come in a later post, because the wireless network is not too quick.

Daox 06-21-2010 05:14 PM

Awesome, post lots of pics!!! :D

MetroMPG 06-21-2010 05:15 PM

This is great, Neil. Front row seat for us!

Patrick 06-21-2010 07:32 PM

Great info Neil. I was watching on the live feed and it was very slow. If you get a chance to talk to the Progressive guys, could you ask them to see what they can do about speeding it up? The live data feed was still showing one car on mile 27 when it had already completed all 30 miles and the webcam was only running at about 5 frames per second. Overall it was great to see it all live, but would have been better if it were a little quicker. Thanks and have a great time!

MetroMPG 06-21-2010 10:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patrick (Post 180096)
I was watching on the live feed ...

Live feed! I didn't know about that. Thanks for the heads up.

Here's the link: LIVE COMPETITION TRACKER | Progressive Automotive XPRIZE

For tomorrow:

Quote:

Efficiency Test: Highway

The highway portion of the test is 90 miles (45 laps) at an average speed of 45 MPH with one (1) stop every 10 miles (5 laps).
Average speed of just 45 mph? They should be knocking out some pretty ridiculous numbers there. Even my car will get 70+ mpg (US) driving with load at those speeds in summer weather (rural driving, including stops).

And they only need to beat 67 mpg-e to avoid elimination!!! Wonder why the bar is set so low?

MetroMPG 06-21-2010 10:34 PM

Also: here's the full schedule of events for the week:

Competition Schedule | Progressive Automotive XPRIZE

RobertSmalls 06-21-2010 10:49 PM

The really hard test is the City one, with four complete stops per mile and an average of 22mph. To complete that one in time, you'd probably have to accelerate up to 45mph in a hurry, then immediately jump on the brakes.

Maybe I'll lay out a course in Buffalo that mimics the X-Prize courses, and see how the Insight does. But it's really hard to measure energy consumption when you don't have an Amp-hour meter.

By the way, how many Insight-based cars are there at the X-Prize?

Patrick 06-21-2010 10:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MetroMPG (Post 180128)
And they only need to beat 67 mpg-e to avoid elimination!!! Wonder why the bar is set so low?

It's 2/3 of the ultimate goal. That gets them into the next round. They have to get at least 100 MPGe to win the prizes.

NeilBlanchard 06-22-2010 08:22 AM

First round of pictures from the first 2 days (Sunday and Monday) -- if you want to see more of anything in particular, just ask. My limiting factor is the slow upload speed of the wireless network, here in the motel.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v7...d/DSC_4696.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v7...d/DSC_4690.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v7...d/DSC_4713.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v7...d/DSC_4705.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v7...d/DSC_4772.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v7...d/DSC_4714.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v7...d/DSC_4717.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v7...d/DSC_4704.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v7...d/DSC_4702.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v7...d/DSC_4777.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v7...d/DSC_4780.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v7...d/DSC_4710.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v7...d/DSC_4694.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v7...d/DSC_4692.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v7...d/DSC_4711.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v7...d/DSC_4752.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v7...d/DSC_4738.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v7...d/DSC_4729.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v7...d/DSC_4732.jpg
(more to come...)

Patrick 06-22-2010 08:36 AM

Neil, where is the Very Light Car's 10 cubic feet of "trunk" space? Will it have to tow the emissions testing equipment?

MetroMPG 06-22-2010 08:41 AM

Neil: that picture of the rear wheel has me curious what tire & size the Edison2 car is running. Doesn't look like an RE92.

gasstingy 06-22-2010 08:50 AM

Neil, Thanks for taking the time to take and post these pictures for our benefit. :thumbup:
It seems very apparent to me that the route to maximum fuel efficiency is to maximize aerodynamics and reduce frontal area, followed by "right-sizing" the powertrain to avoid excessive available power. Kind of like the premises behind this forum. :cool:

Patrick 06-22-2010 08:55 AM

Neil, can you grab some pics of Enginer's hybrid steam system? Thanks.

NeilBlanchard 06-22-2010 09:06 AM

Here's a direct link to my PhotoBucket album, to make it easier to see my uploads; without me having to cross post!

I believe the Edison2 wheels are 14" 145's? It's a Continental tire; I'm forgetting the exact name.

I will go to the track right now and get a bunch of pictures of as many of the teams as I can!

NeilBlanchard 06-22-2010 09:09 AM

The storage is in various places; depending on which of the 3 class cars (they have 2 mainstream and 1 tandem and 1 side by side alternative class).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patrick (Post 180238)
Neil, where is the Very Light Car's 10 cubic feet of "trunk" space? Will it have to tow the emissions testing equipment?

Yes, all the vehicles have to be able to tow a trailer (dynamometer?).

cfg83 06-22-2010 11:54 AM

MetroMPG -

Quote:

Originally Posted by MetroMPG (Post 180239)
Neil: that picture of the rear wheel has me curious what tire & size the Edison2 car is running. Doesn't look like an RE92.

Not sure about the size, but it's a ContiEcoContact EP :

http://ecomodder.com/forum/showthrea...ery-11841.html
Quote:

Originally Posted by cfg83 (Post 172729)


CarloSW2

Patrick 06-22-2010 08:18 PM

Here's a little video from the BITW team, which is running a bio-diesel powered 2004 Chevy Metro. Check out that airdam/grillblock/bumper cover and the clear rear wheel skirts. It looks like they've got Kuhmo Solus tires (at least on the left front) and are running Volk Racing wheels. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8AKMe...layer_embedded

Their website: BITW Technologies

A quote: In respect to the Progressive Insurance Automotive X Prize competition, the team has been modifying a car that fits the mainstream category, which is for traditional four-passenger vehicles with room for cargo. It is what you would call a reapplication of existing technology. Voll got the idea while talking with a customer about a diesel powered lawn tractor. Realizing the economy potential and engine design, he did some research on the torque curves and found similarity to the Geo Metro; thus the seed was planted. Now, over ten thousand miles later, the team has an automobile that performs well on a daily basis while working towards 100 mile per gallon-equivalent fuel economy while running on a simple bio-fuel. Our goal is to share this application with drivers and families around the world.

Patrick 06-23-2010 03:06 PM

Another BITW video.
 
Here's another video on the BITW Chevy Metro. They're using B20 in an under-one-liter, 3-cylinder turbo diesel. Check out the clear spoiler on the back.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tm-i1cpbKbs


cfg83 06-24-2010 03:00 AM

Patrick -

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patrick (Post 180439)
Here's another video on the BITW Chevy Metro. They're using B20 in an under-one-liter, 3-cylinder turbo diesel. Check out the clear spoiler on the back.

...

Ok, this is cool. I had seen the clear rear skirt, but not the spoiler. It seems like this is an aero-prototype for anyone with a Metro Sedan.

CarloSW2

NeilBlanchard 06-24-2010 07:26 AM

I've uploaded some more pictures from yesterday at the X-Prize:

Progressive Automotive X-Prize Knockout Round pictures by NeilBlanchard - Photobucket

Enjoy!

Unfortunately, one of the Edison2 VLC -- the side-by-side that is the oldest of the four, painted silver basically overheated, and was not able to complete the minimum 70% of the test required and was DQ'd from the X-Prize. The Edison2 team will push on with the remaining three cars -- which is still more than any other team.

The West Philly high school team (who are great to have here!) have two cars, and the two E-Tracers are the only other teams (IIRC) who have more than one car in the X-Prize.

Daox 06-24-2010 07:48 AM

Great pics Neil! Thanks for keeping us in the loop. :)

NeilBlanchard 06-24-2010 09:57 PM

So, far it has been awesome! I've uploaded some more pictures to Photobucket. The Highway test was today, and so the Combined (City, Urban, Highway) numbers will be coming out soon, if not already -- some have been eliminated (often due to errors/problems but that is racing!), but many are *well* beyond the 67MPGe required for this stage, and quite a few are already above the 100MPGe that will be required for the final test; prior to the race itself.

The Aptera made it easily through the 90 mile Highway test today. I think most of the BOD was there and they are all very pleased with the results. We should know the economy results fairly soon -- tomorrow?

The Endurance test is tomorrow, and it is "public day" -- so if you are close enough to visit, then I hope you do!

RobertSmalls 06-24-2010 10:25 PM

I'm having a really hard time finding coverage of these events. I want to know how each team does, in mpg, and which events the eliminated teams failed.

On the website, all I've found is a webcam, and this: Standings | Progressive Automotive XPRIZE

Patrick 06-24-2010 10:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RobertSmalls (Post 180710)
I'm having a really hard time finding coverage of these events. I want to know how each team does, in mpg, and which events the eliminated teams failed.

On the website, all I've found is a webcam, and this: Standings | Progressive Automotive XPRIZE

They're supposed to put up some of the MPGe figures in the next couple days. There's an appeal procedure that some of the teams are going through, and they want to finish that before they publish anything.

I've asked them to put up the reasons for teams failing, but got not reply. Some of them made videos about it. K-way MOTUS and Cornell University both had mechanical problems. One of the Edison2 Very Light Cars overheated during a run and couldn't complete enough laps, so was DQ'd, but they still have 3 cars in.

Patrick 06-24-2010 10:49 PM

PS: On the website, if you click on the Teams button, then click on one of the teams, i.e.:

Aptera | Progressive Automotive XPRIZE

you can click on the MPGe button down near the bottom and select an event to get some of the archived telemetry data. Problem is that the data may not be reliable, but it can give you and idea of how they're doing.

RobertSmalls 06-25-2010 12:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RobertSmalls (Post 180140)
By the way, how many Insight-based cars are there at the X-Prize?

Two: the FourSight and TwinSight both used Insight bodies and some sort of diesel-electric hybrid arrangement. I'd love to know more, especially about how they got four seats in a first-gen Honda Insight body, and why both of their cars failed the shakedown.

NeilBlanchard 06-25-2010 06:33 AM

I don't know what happened to those particular cars, but most of the eliminations so far (before this knockout stage) were due to technical problems with the cars.

Global-E is out of the knockout (I think) due to a ignition mapping error.

NeilBlanchard 06-25-2010 06:50 AM

Here's the official X-Prize photo pages:

Knockout Qualification Stage Day 3 - June 23, 2010 - a set on Flickr

Wonderboy 06-25-2010 09:06 AM

Awwe Cornell's out? Bumma.

Live coverage happening RIGHT NOW!

gasstingy 06-25-2010 09:33 AM

Great photobucket picture collection. My favorite, #78. Gotta love a team when under stress still has a sense of humor. FVT eVaro team member sitting in the cockpit. Just outside the canopy, within easy reach..... an "EASY" button.

hahahahahahah

Patrick 06-25-2010 04:52 PM

Aptera DNF
 
Wow, Aptera DNFd in the range test today. They only had a couple miles to go to complete it. They had completed 68, but had to do at least one penalty lap because they had an unscheduled stop. They only made it about 1/4 of the way into the first penalty lap. Initial word is they had a fluid leak from the Borg-Warner reduction transmission.

Patrick 06-25-2010 05:05 PM

American HyPower is out too, though they claim it's not due to a failure with their system.

Patrick 06-25-2010 08:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RobertSmalls (Post 180710)
I'm having a really hard time finding coverage of these events. I want to know how each team does, in mpg, and which events the eliminated teams failed.

On the website, all I've found is a webcam, and this: Standings | Progressive Automotive XPRIZE

Ian Osgood put up this summary page on Wiki:

User:IanOsgood/Automotive X Prize standings - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

MetroMPG 06-25-2010 09:09 PM

Patrick: I assume Aptera continues on with other cars on hand, like Edison2?

Matt: more info about the FourSight/Insight cars: Consumer Reports Cars Blog: Automotive X Prize: A tale of two teams--Wikispeed, FourSight

Patrick 06-25-2010 10:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MetroMPG (Post 180868)
Patrick: I assume Aptera continues on with other cars on hand, like Edison2?

I don't know. The X-prize website only shows that they have one car.

I heard one of the track guys say over the radio that Aptera was declaring a DNF.

But then Aptera posted a few minutes ago on their Team page that they passed the range test. So maybe they were given a reprieve by the officials? :confused:

Patrick 06-26-2010 12:46 PM

Update
 
The West Philly team says they're out: All Good Things

So that would mean there are only two teams left in mainstream: Edison2 with their 2 Very Light Cars powered by E85; and Illuminati with the battery-only "7."

It looks like it will be very tough for anyone to get to the 100 mpg goal in Mainstream.

Alternative should be doable, especially for a vehicle like the E-tracer, which is really a faired motorcycle. They were showing over 300 MPGe on the telemetry during the highway test. Aptera was also above 100 (if they're still in the competition), as was the Li-Ion Wave, FVT Evaro, and ZAP Alias.

gone-ot 06-26-2010 01:34 PM

...one "good" result of setting a HIGH goal is that we get to see just "...how far & how close..." the contestants actually can achieve (ie: the B-I-G stretch), which isn't possible when merely 'achievable' goals are used.

...maybe, NO one will meet all the goals, but in the end we can learn just what the realworld "limits" truly are (hooray!).

NeilBlanchard 06-27-2010 02:28 PM

Aptera had to stop 3 times to cool something under the hood. Edison2 had to several cooling stops on one of their cars, too (they ran with different cooling systems, to try things out). Edison2 loaned one of their water sprayers to Aptera. I did not hear that Aptera had not completed the penalty lap (I think it simply adds to the energy consumption) and I heard from several of the Aptera guys (later in the same restaurant) that they had passed.

Aptera only entered the one vehicle. They should have entered an older design prototype as well, in hindsight!

And yes, just the Illuminati and the two Edison2 mainstream cars are left. (The West Philly mainstream Focus hybrid with the Harley engine sounded pretty rough: it sqealed in EV mode, and sounded quite constricted when the Harley was running.)

The interesting thing is that the Illuminati and the Edison2 cars are a study in contrasts: weight difference is huge, pure EV vs pure ICE, homegrown vs professional, one entry vs four...

They have good aero drag in common -- and they are both there for the same reasons: to build as efficient a car as possible! We need to keep this in mind, I think? All the teams are there for the right reasons, IMO.

I will be writing a synopsis as soon as I can, and I will post a copy here. I got home last night, driving the ~825+ miles back to Massachusetts yesterday...] I've uploaded a bunch more pictures: Image hosting, free photo sharing & video sharing at Photobucket

gone-ot 06-27-2010 02:37 PM

...Thanks, Neil!

...while I'll probably never buy nor own any of those vehicles, I do enjoy knowing that SOMEBODY is "...doing the right thing..." automotive-wise about aerodynamics (Detroit, are you listening?).

...the automotive designers need to take "...some lessons..." from the aircraft companies, especially since jets can now break the 'sound-barrier' without using after-burners.

..."brute force" isn't the only answer for jets...or automobiles!

Patrick 06-28-2010 11:56 PM

Illuminati is out.
 
The Illuminati 7 was knocked out when the transmission broke during the 0-60 acceleration test. That leaves only the two Edison2 Very Light Cars in the Mainstream class.


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