Putting a Completely New Engine Oil Chemistry in a Cummins Engine

[freebeard]

Yes! It'd be terrible if you had to start doing your own thinking!..?

I don't like the implication. Like I may have said before, he may be a curmudgeon but he's our curmudgeon.

[Piotrsko]

Aerohead has a pretty awesome grasp of flow interactions (def not my forte)
ANNND I haven't seen where he is inconsistent with all the aero knowledge I learned, PLUS he has the color glossies with circles and arrows and paragraphs on the back and fronts a distaste for bs here. YMMV

[Logic]

Originally Posted by freebeard

I don't like the implication. Like I may have said before, he may be a curmudgeon but he's our curmudgeon.

Well I asked where the boron esters and water disappeared to.
You said: "Where is aerohead when you need him?"
To do what..? What did you imply..?

So there the Boron Esters and water are in the new oil. (Most new engine oils)
They ran the engine ...aaand... they disappeared!
(In the immortal words of Jeff Dunam's Peanut; "They just ducking fisappeared!"
Where'd they go!???


1st question, having checked your fav oil brand/s, might be:
What are all these various borons doing in my engine oil!?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xGDJimjYBFw

2nd question might be:
Well what are boron and borate esters and how are they made?

3rd question may be:
Why didn't I think to ask MYSELF those obvious questions!?

NB that I much appreciate you giving this a 2nd thought. no-one else is...
Which is just weird for people here to learn how to improve fuel economy easily and cheaply. [Shrug]

[freebeard]

Well I asked where the boron esters and water disappeared to.
You said: "Where is aerohead when you need him?"
To do what..? What did you imply..?

It appeared you were pushing a tribilogical button and I summoned the opposition. Should have added a '/jk'. I'm sorry for saying 'let's you and him fight', but I'm sure the mods appreciate the bump in traffic.

Guess what -- I don't have a favorite motor oil. I'd like to get back to aerodynamic doodats.

[Logic]

"...boron. It is listed as an "additive and/or other" instead of just an "additive" like calcium, magnesium, molybdenum, and a few others.
Most of the "others" are present in low single digit ppm quantities other than boron and sodium, which are present in the hundreds of ppm in certain oils.
At first I thought that boron was only in the "high end" oils like Mobil 1 and Amsoil, but then I noticed it was also present in Super Tech, Fram, Mobil Super Synthetic, and a few other cheaper ones.


So; Boron is present in most all oils now:

• Boron Antixidants (Esters replacing catalyst poisoning ZDDP. Synergy between Boron Esters and ZDDP)
• Boron Solid lubricant (like Hexagonal Boron Nitride)
• Boron Corrosion Inhibitors.
• Boron Anti-wear additive.

Check you fave oil! you cant stick your head in the ground anymore!
Ans in the above example, so is water.
But when the oil gets old those 2 decrease. Where'd they go!???

"Er...? I'm too doff for this technical sh!t. I'll just stay away rather. Seems safest! But I'm an Ecommodder I am! "...???
Common people! Challenge your brain!

[Logic]

Originally Posted by freebeard

It appeared you were pushing a tribilogical button and I summoned the opposition. Should have added a '/jk'. I'm sorry for saying 'let's you and him fight', but I'm sure the mods appreciate the bump in traffic.

Guess what -- I don't have a favorite motor oil. I'd like to get back to aerodynamic doodats.

Aerodynamics is as complicated, if not more!
That simple (ideal shape) teardrop template is a placebo to make everyone feel less dumb.

BTW: Is aerohead more qualified than you or I (or anyone here) in either? I looked here and online and no mention of any qualifications in either that I could find.

Waving a smokestick at a car on which no iterative changes and improvements are going to be made is what motor companies do at the end, FOR ADVERTISING..!
(There's no difference between taping up vents and seams and waving a smokestick at a clay model..!)

Argue! Ask! Research! Figure things out for yourself in your 1 life why not!

[freebeard]

That simple (ideal shape) teardrop template is a placebo to make everyone feel less dumb.

I take it as an intellectual challenge -- how to make a compound curved shape out of flat pieces with straight edges.

BTW: Is aerohead more qualified than you or I (or anyone here) in either? I looked here and online and no mention of any qualifications in either that I could find.

I've watched him test artifacts at Bonneville Salt Flats and the Darko wind tunnel in Ogden, UT; so moreso than I.

Waving a smokestick at a car on which no iterative changes and improvements are going to be made is what motor companies do at the end,

In IT the standard is blue smoke and mirrors.

Figure things out for yourself in your 1 life why not!

I lean toward perpetual reincarnation on a prison planet.

[Logic]

Originally Posted by freebeard

I take it as an intellectual challenge -- how to make a compound curved shape out of flat pieces with straight edges.

I've watched him test artifacts at Bonneville Salt Flats and the Darko wind tunnel in Ogden, UT; so moreso than I.

In IT the standard is blue smoke and mirrors.

I lean toward perpetual reincarnation on a prison planet.

Ok Sigh!
Here's some chemistry for you not to believe completely or at all:

Borate esters react with water to produce boric acid and an alcohol.
This is a hydrolysis reaction where the ester bonds in the borate ester are broken by water molecules, releasing boric acid and the corresponding alcohol.

R-O-B(OR')₂ + H₂O ⇌ B(OH)₃ + R'OH

Hexagonal Boron Nitride (h-BN) can react with water, to produce boric acid and ammonia.
h-BN can be hydrolyzed by water, especially under certain conditions like high temperature or in the presence of catalysts,

These reactions are reversible...
The equilibrium can be shifted by factors like the concentration of reactants and products, temperature, and the presence of catalysts.

So here concentration is shifted because the BA is used up in forming the hard layer on the metal surfaces.
With that BA out the way, the reaction equilibrium shifts towards creating more but will equalise at a small anount of BA once all surfaces are coated.

Remember that 'The Layer' is 2 layers:
1st BA reacts with the slightly oxidized metal surface to form the hard, resistant to other chemical reactions layer.
Then, with enough BA around the thicker way more slippery layer forms on top of that.

ie:
This is a very clever of oil makers:
1: No mention of anything "Acid! Aaaacid!!!! RunTF away!" on the label.
2: Soluble in oil so no suspicious looking separation.
3: Slow, so any new engine has a chance to run in a bit before the initial layer forms.
4: Way for oil makers to very slowly get the initial, thin hard, other reactions resistant layer to form on bearing surfaces.
5: But with very little to no extra BA to form 'The Slippery' on top of it, so engines will still use as much fuel and wear out at the same, publicly acceptable, rate, so income is not reduced!

So not too long now and everyone will have one hell of a hard time following Lord aerohead of no qualifications but much convincing conviction's dire warning to avoid The Heretic's blasphemy!
Check any oil you might use for the dastardly Borons!

[JSH]

Originally Posted by Logic

Waving a smokestick at a car on which no iterative changes and improvements are going to be made is what motor companies do at the end, FOR ADVERTISING..!
(There's no difference between taping up vents and seams and waving a smokestick at a clay model..!)

Argue! Ask! Research! Figure things out for yourself in your 1 life why not!

That isn't how we go about making aerodynamic changes. What actually happens:

1. Design Engineers come up with 20 - 30 ideas
2. Those ideas are individually modeled and run through CFD modeling
3. Engineers work up a cost for those changes. (Does no good to improve aero if the cost outweigh the benefits)
4. The improvements with the best cost / benefit ratio are then combined in different configurations and run through CFD modeling again.
5. The best 2 -3 configurations are selected
6. Then we make some 3D printed parts and test them in the wind tunnel to see if the CFD is correct.
7. If those look good we take the most promising configuration and make some more durable 3D parts and put them on a test vehicle and run them round and round the 3 mile test loop to see if reality matches the wind tunnel and CFD.

These aero changes then get incorporated in the next facelift along with dozens of other little changes to the vehicle that all add up.

Plenty of these aero changes aren't even visible to the customer as we are getting to the point where internal engine bay airflow and underbody airflow are becoming more important as there are no longer any big gains to be had on the basic external shape.

[freebeard]

Originally Posted by Logic

Ok Sigh!
Here's some chemistry for you not to believe completely or at all:
[restatement of the basic premise]
So not too long now and everyone will have one hell of a hard time following Lord aerohead of no qualifications but much convincing conviction's dire warning to avoid The Heretic's blasphemy!
Check any oil you might use for the dastardly Borons!

Where have I said I disagree with the Basic Premise?

My point of contention is that not everyone slavishly followed (as I mocked it back then) Thee Holy Template. I rate Fuller's Dymaxion Transport above Phil Knox's Template. And, I note, also, Ross Lovegrove:



Sort of a remix of Fuller and Morelli. {I think the colors are normals, not pressure gradient)

Speaking of aerohead's qualifications, I'm not going to kick him while he's down. Last post hasn't changed since 2025-05-24.

Google[spit] can't find the story, but aerohead was surfing at China Beach in the 1960's and he decided to wave a smoke stick of some sort in the air. An Apache helicopter immediately informed his what the green color smoke was all about. (Yikes)