Replacing my VW diesel van
 

Diesel or petrol. What's the best base van for modification?

I have a VW T4 2.5tdi hitop campervan. It's extremely handy when traveling long distances to hop in the back. I get 35mpg measuring top of tank to top of tank. (only 25mpg with a scanguage though... can't figure that out but that's another story).

However, fuel prices can change all this. I need to be prepared for that.

What are my options?

I was considering getting something like a Citroen Nemo. It's an ultra small van that I could fit folding bed into the back of. I'll have to design to keep the load light but unloaded it does ~65mpg. However, I'm tied to diesel or biodiesel with that. I'd be tied to diesel really and that's a dirty fuel. I think I can get £5,000 for my van so it won't cost me much more as a swap.

The other option is buying a older petrol based vehicle and attempting to modify. This might then get me the option of HHO. Maybe even battery options. I'd want something easy to work on. LPG availability is good in Spain where I expect to be so that would be the first conversion, and I'd even see if I can find something with this factory fitted...

What would you suggest starting out with?

After 5 years of scratching my car to put on a bike rack with A Jnr I'm also after a van too as my car only carries me and one other 90% of the time.

I've read varying reports on the NEMO (and the other related ones). Some people reckon they are too underpowered as standard so you end up pushing it hard to make progress which affects FE. Add weight for sleeping stuff and maybe it gets worse. Add a tuning box and maybe it gets better ?

You could go for an older Berlingo for less cash and have more money for mods. You also get the option of the older 2.0 HDi with more torque for the weight or possibly one of the newer 1.6 HDi which seem super efficient.

I'm also looking at the Kangoo as the one I sat in a few months ago had the most comfortable front seats I have been on in quite a while and the DCi engines are pretty good.

Diesel seemed cheap in Spain when I was there plus you don't have all that messing around with tanks taking up space and adding weight. And 99% of vans are Diesel anyway giving you more choice.

Good luck though.

PS - it may be worth looking at the other threads on the SG2 vs TDis for tips on calibration. Setting the engine size to 1/3 of actual seems to work quite well as a starting point.

...if you're really accustomed to driving a diesel, you'll most likely find all the petrol vehicles to be sluggish and high-winded.

Check the manual, then see if you need to use the Diesel-A or Diesel-B setting.

Start with a 1.8 or 1.9 L displacement in its settings, rather than the actual 2.5L .
Even then you'll have to calibrate the Scangauge whenever you fill up.

Using the FILLUP button, the SG shows how much fuel it thinks you've used. You can increase or decrease that value towards the actual value - it pays off to only adjust it by half of the error, or the error may well swing in the other direction.


It's taken a while to calibrate and adjust it, but my SG is quite accurate now.
In the beginning, I was about to sell it as it didn't seem to be accurate on Diesel engined cars ;)

...+1, the same technique works well with petrol engines too.

Thanks for the info here and there.

It's a good point, I do like diesels, but I do't like the fuel and I wonder if I'd be left out of mods I can do if I go with diesel? I mean, LPG isn't really possible and I don't think putting additives into the fuel line is either is it? Or am I mistaken? I haven't looked into it a lot what with no having owned a petrol car in a while. I need some sort of overview really.

The thing is, I'm quite handy with electrics but not with mechanics. What put me off doing mods before (had an Eberspacher to join into the fuel line and I decided not to try it in case I mess it up, especially being a high top as it means working in the snow!) ...being my only vehicle, if I make a mistake I'm stuck where I am until I fix it.

Having said that, I wouldn't want to get left out of exciting mods I can get into in the future.

Might another option be to keep a lookout for a project half started... and go with that? That works well for performance cars but I rarely see anything like this for eco mods. That said, you can certainly get a LPG estate car up and going by buying it ready fitted like that... and that would mix well with other mods. hmm...

Modern Diesel units tend to like mods related to the air temps (intercooler, intake paths etc.), cooling (Grill blocks etc.). Other than that its down to computers (ECU remaps, tuning boxes etc.)

But I wouldn't mess about with the fuel system on a modern diesel as its under such high pressure - apparently it can slice a finger off... :D

car with a camper trailer?

Diesel can be injected through the skin because of the high psi direct injection systems use. The only medical remedy for this is amputation.

I'd still mess with a diesels injectors... carefully.

...exact same technology as todays' medical "trans-dermal" (needle-less) shot injection devices...like Dr. McCoy uses in "Star Trek" (wink,wink).

I was hoping to get a few short answers but it's turned into something not so simple.

What might be ideal is something like a Ford Transit Connect that already has a Eberspacher pre-heater on the engine block, to cut down hassle with all that in a camper. But how do I go about finding something like that?
Then again there is the Renault Traffic at el with the 6 speed box. Although the 6 speed box has problems perhaps I could find one already replaced, or cheap because it's acknowledged as a problem.

....
I actually get 35mpg from this high top van. I don't have pizza pans on the wheels or a smooth underbelly, the wing mirrors are massive and this is moderately loaded. But of course, with the high roof I'm always going to be limited. What I don't understand is that reading what other people are getting in their low top versions of the same van, they're getting only 5mpg extra at tops.

Sorry for all the questions. Is there a forum we know of more European centric?

Have you seen this ?

http://www.honestjohn.co.uk/imagecac...%202%20700.jpg

But they want £23K for it new :eek:

Is diesel really bad or dirty? NO!
 

It is worth pointing out that "modern" diesel fuel is much better than stinky old diesel from 10 or 15 years ago. The new stuff is actually pretty good/clean/ultra low sulfur.

Plus, it takes less energy to refine diesel than gasoline.
Plus, it has more energy per liter than gasoline.
Plus, the engines designed for it are thermodynamically more efficient than the equivalent gasser.
Plus, it has a much higher flash point, so it is an inherently safer fuel than gasoline, and orders of magnitude less flammable than hydrogen.

So really, I think diesel is the more eco-friendly fuel than gasoline.

AND you have some renewable options like biodiesel.


Good luck and have fun!

troy

WOW diesel van :-) I wish there were more of those on our side of the pond.
Subscribed:

Last time I checked Ford only make one Petrol Transit, and that is advertised as being 'suitable for LPG'.

We actually get 2 diesel vans.
1) dodge sprinter
2) ford E-350 powerstroke.

This has become an incredibly complex decision!

The questions only you guys can answer:

- how much is going from ~2.5m high to less than half that really going to help me? It should help a lot. However, why is it my unmodified vehcile gets 35mpg when the same unmodified model without the high roof (only about 0.40m lower) get the same mpg?

- which cars are popular for ecomods in Europe? In America the Honda and Metro are popular. But there are better options here. It's a lot easier if someone has gone the path before you. For example, I'm familiar with the VW T4 5th gear mod and I know there are camshafts available for American vehicles but what about vehicles popular in Europe?
Is a Skoda Octavia a good car to ecomod or is it something no one's done before?


The long winded going through it all... (possibly self!) discussion:

Knowing I'm pushing a high top through the air is the bind really. I know that will always limit me. However... still can't see an option compelling enough to replace.

I mean, it's a very aerodynamically dirty van. High top, bits sticking out of the roof, massive wing mirrors, rough underside. Yet I get 35mpg.

Let's say Vauxhall Astra van. Enough room in there and maybe 55mpg before mods.
Only thing is, none for sale on ebay germany.

What about the Renault Traffic? Only 45mpg at best. The Astra 1.3CDi sounds very interesting. What a small engine! And it's 6 speed. But can't see a left hand drive version from Opel... as far as I can see.

Can we say from this that my van would be as good as modern diesels if it wasn't for the high top? How much is that high top costing me? I thought it was a lot, but now I compare to the other options I wonder if it's not as bad as I think.

Other options?
Skoda Octavia Estate... (55mpg ish again)
attach a fold up bed to the bed of the rear seats. Add a heater. Swap the starter battery for a deep cycle and keep an eye on voltage with a battery meter. Ecomod with a smooth underside and pizza pans.

The funny thing is... diesel...

This ties in with something else I'm working on.

I am actually looking at half face masks for my bicycle in the city where bicycles make the most sense. You can't really get away from the fact that diesel is a dirty fuel. Not like LPG at all in that it has particulates and a whole swathe of chemicals that a face mask can't really filter out. fter some incredibly confusing research into this I found you can choose only about 2 filters at a time, a HEPA filter and a chemical filter - If you filter out carbon monoxide then you're left with benzene and the rest... And besides, wearing one of these things is a pain... there are only full masks with camelbak adapters. Pollution is a pain in the neck for me. So much so if my love of my life has to live in a city I think I would have to leave her. I can't love without health. A list of carfree cities here:
List of car-free places - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (I can't stand the anti car movement by the way. I love cars, it's the fuel that I can't stand. At least biodiesel is a nice fuel, even if it is dirty my proxy due to cleaning out the soot left by diesel)

I'd love to live somewhere like that but also have something parked on the edge of town.

...so to sit in a diesel seems hypocritical. Yet I need the range to get across Spain with a surfboard. By the way, motorists get more fumes than cyclists. This makes long journeys hard work. For example, if I take a holiday skiing and choose to drive, by the time I get back my lungs and body feels much the same as it did when I left... very pronounced. I really think it makes sense to have some basic filtering on the air coming into the cabin even if it costs efficiency.

solarguy: Is diesel fuel cleaner? I've heard not actually. I don't know if what I've heard is accurate but I'm sure I remember someone saying to me that the UK has very poor standards for diesel whereas on the continent (& probably wealthier US states) standards are a lot higher. However, I'm a diesel van too. Very much so. I just like the technology. Just having problems at the mo with cycling, which I hope I can nail with displine of keeping a mask on.

dremd: Thanks for the info for American vehicles. I'm going to Buenos Aires in a week or 2 and I wondered about buying a van there. They don't have cheap cars though($1200+) so I may hire instead to get to and from the beach. Intresting you only get a choice of 2!


I'm leaning toward a diesel because I can't stand driving low torque petrol cars now... an estate I can customise, parked out of town I can cycle to with a fold-up.

But as I say... how much is this frontal area reduction from ~2.30m to less than half that going to help? ...how much does Cda matter?

Thanks for all the info people! All good stuff. A suprisingly complex decision this is turning out to be. I'll put a summary in the OP when done.

Wow, thats a lot of thinking :D

I suspect this will turn into a discussion about Diesel polution vs Petrol :D I'll post my view here and then leave that aspect, and stick to cars and vans...

I have read (on here and elsewhere) how dirty diesel is and how people would not like to live in a poluted UK city, yet in Edinburgh I can see people out running and cycling in this apparently dirty city - if it was so bad then they wouldn't been there doing what they do. Me, I'm fat and unfit but I walk a lot here and I have had Asthma since childhood and it doesn't bother me as much as other factors - the extreme cold recently for example. In fact it bothers me less here than it did before I moved from England. Equally there are people who are more or less floored by particulant emissions. That must be hard for them.

You can add a scrubber to a diesel to remove most if not all of the particulants, a large number of buses have them and a large number do not. Emissions limits are European wide although the quality of air in different cities varies quite a bit as does enforcement. In the UK we have cut back on traffic police (in favour of cameras) so the likelihood of being caught is quite rare, even on main routes or indeed in cities.

I have been in parts of the US where Diesels are rare and the air in those areas (South East) was dominated by the smell given off by catalysed engines being worked hard - that sulphurous type smell. I wonder what that does to people long term.

As for your van, I think you are edging towards keeping it. Thats a valid choice, the money is as well in your wallet.

An Octavia TDi is a good basis for ecomodding. Its basically a VW Golf underneath so you can use all the tips posted for those, and related vehicles - see Vekke's excellent thread on his Cordoba Vario for example. Even the ports and sockets and the underbonnet in the Octavia vs the Golf is more or less identical. The issue you may have is finding a decent one as they are popular taxis when used. If you do go for one, check it over for service history (oil especially) and listen for DMF issues. DMFs are ok but when they go it can be unexpected and expensive.

The Transporter is an excellent basis for an ecomodded practical vehicle though, and will be much less of a compromise than an Astra or an Octavia sized vehicle. If you keep it and mod it then it will be an interesting project to watch, I would subscribe :D

I have read threads of Aero vs weight in here - search for some of them. Opinions differ but I think its related to the speeds involved. If you go 5-10 MPH less than you do just now you will see a significant saving either way. At higher speeds then the hole you are trying to punch through the air is going to cost you more than weight, at lower speeds or in traffic then getting the weigh moving costs you the most.

Anyway, good luck.

Arragonis: Thanks for allying my doubts about diesel. I'm gonna stick with it.
Thanks also for letting me know that the stuff we've worked out for the golf is applicable for the Octavia. It looks like it's gonna be Octavia. I'll search out one that needs a fly wheel and get it done when I buy it.
The other advantage I can see is that taxi drivers should be very interested in any way I can help them save fuel.

To come to that conclusion I also did some calulations in addition to what you say. Took a while to work out but kind of rewarding when you get the final figure. (whew!)


Conclusions:

1) Other people who drive my van must drive a lot less efficient than I do because they look after them just the same.
2) I calculate, very roughly that a high roof delete is only goin to save me 7mpg at best (UK metric). Probably only costs me 4-5mpg. That's a saving of £30(~$48) on a 800 mile ski run. Thus, if I'm going to change vehicles for this reason I better do it properly and get something really low.



My working out. Other people might find this useful:

Very approximately(measuring with a ruler on screen!) the high top is 23% of the frontal area. The van cda without the high top is quoted as 0.36.
( 1.7 Delivery Program )

I can't just add on 23% to 0.36. I need the frontal area used for the normal roof T4 to get that 0.36 figure.

The german for frontal area according to google translate is "Frontfläche" but could also be "Stirnfläche" (Google Translate )
...
A search on that turns up nothing:
"vw t4" frontfläche "m²" -volvo - Google Search

Ah! Found the calculator at:
Aerodynamic & rolling resistance, power & MPG calculator - EcoModder.com
perhaps I can use that with trial and error to make some estimations...

if a '95 GTI VR6 has a frontal area of 21.66' then my van is going to be just under double that (sadly a very rough estimate... have to get an exact figure when I have the van in front of me). If I use 33' and all other settings on the most optimistic I get 27.91mpg... ah, that's imperial. Check that my figures were calculated as UK... yes they were... should be about 33mpg. (I drive at 60mph)

So!
Minus the 22% gain from high to low roof (~25') gives 39mpg(UK units)

So the grand total saved from hi to low roof is.... (wait for it!)

4mpg!!

- and that's being very generous on the frontal area difference.

I loose being able to stand up in the back for that? hmm... ok, not worth getting a standard roof T4.

What if we go lower, as a control test on these calculations I'm doing...
put 21 back into the calulator for a Golf...
= 45mpg (UK units).

Hmm... sounds a bit high for a diesel golf... lower engine efficiency to 20%
= 40mpg (UK units). Sounds more like it.

Replug the figures in with engine efficiency at 20%...
29mpg to 36mpg(UK) = 7mpg saving. (metric UK)

and from standard t4 roof to even lower... 44mpg.



edit:: I think I was putting the mpg US/UK converting in the wrong way round on here:
http://www.tdiclub.com/misc/conversions.html
...might need to start again....

Hi,

I followed your calculations just until the point where you started to use lots of numbers and words :D

Unless you are in a hurry to decide I would experiment a little. Sounds like you have been looking into how to drive the Transporter efficiently if you are doing better than the official figures and others with the same vehicle. The Transporter has a lot of advantages, especially space. If you use it full all the time then you need to weight that against the cost of fuel for it. If its empty then the extra compared to a car is kind of wasted.

Still if you haven't, check out the tips page and the other TDI related threads. For example are their small eco mods you can made to the Transporter - e.g. grill blocks, or folding in the mirrors when on the motorways and using those small, convex mirror things - stuff like that. Even the tyre pressure mod for better glides.

For biking and camping / outdoor stuff though I would think the Transporter is a winner. I'm considering a van for my next vehicle because of this - the back of my Skoda is scratched like mad from bide racks being taken on and off, plus your bike isn't as secure on the outside even with locks.

For info the Octavia (my wife has one) is frustratingly just two small to get an adult mountain bike in easily (mines an old Peugeot - probably way out of date - did I mention my portlyness :D). And when it is in there isn't room for the rear seats to stay, even the single split one. And of course when it is in it is on display - another win for the Transporter.

Ski stuff in the Octavia will need a roof rack which is horrid for aero. You can use a roof box instead of course.

There is of course the other option which sounds wrong at first however how about a second vehicle, maybe a smaller van or car when you don't need the space ? It depends on if you have the space to store one when you aren't using it, plus you have double tax, insurance etc. Multi car insurance can work for the latter and only taxing the vehicle you use can work for the former but then you have to keep the one you aren't using off the road, and in some areas of the UK even out of sight. :eek:

My point about the flywheel is to check it out - listen for a change of note or rumbling when you put the clutch in or out. It may mean something, or it may mean absolutely nothing. The issue is that when the clutch goes its worth changing the flywheel at the same time as its a pig.

DMFs are expensive and the time required is also expensive. The local Skoda dealer near me replaces DMFs with SMFs for taxi use as they don't break. Lots of people will say they are totally reliable and others not. My spanner people (VAG specialists) say they have had them go on vehicles with mileages between 10K and 150K miles unpredictably but they do replace them like with like. SMFs are more noisy in some cases (e.g. mine rattles) but in others not.

Either way good luck. :thumbup:

oh Arragonis don't do this to me please! ha ha

I love VW vans too and I thought I had it nailed. I've got very attached to mine. Not only is it sorted out mechanically now but I know my way around it. And yes, it's very convenient in that I can get a roll up surfboard, 2 more surfboards, skis, boots and poles, a kiteboard and all stuff to live in for a couple of weeks in there.
I'll take bikes inside it (with the bed), WVO, everything. It is fantastic as you say.

I've got so used to sitting in the back eating lunch at the supermarket,
or sitting out watching the waves! I am sploit.

But man!
I'm a efficiency sort of person and... do you know what ego is? When I say spoilt I mean. Give it up for lent. Where a part of you IS the car? I'm a surfer, the van, it's like it's me. That's no good. Whenever there's something like that you got to break it off and find a part of yourself that's new. And that may mean no campervanning at all. ...or something completely different. It's like it's too easy, you know. That's so apparent when I look in my van and I see all the gear I got in there...

a socket set `just in case`
snowchains `just in case get stuck in mud`
an iron!

^this is madness!
All this stuff wieghs us down in life. In our houses it does. But boy it really hits come when you're at the pump and your standing there while nothing else but be reflective... pumping in over a ton (£100... ~$200!) ! For me that's not really too bad because I don't use it as much as most people do a car... but it's the principle of it. I really cringe.

The answer's got to be move to cycling distance of the beach! And that is yet another problem all linked in! Cheaper to leg it to a remote tropical island perhaps. All these things... chains that bind the mind. As much as I love my camper (and it is genuinely fantastic), it's also another thing bogging one down.

The other fear is that I'll be left with this RHD van in the UK while I'm the other side of the world and no money to take it anywhere... no one wanting to buy it because diesel's at £5/litre.

The thing is, the cash. This may be enough to get me out of the UK...

I love my camper so much so I even thought about importing it to Argentina! ...until I realised no shipping container is quite that high... you'd need a double.

Then again loads of people say to me `Hey, ever get in any trouble you can always sleep in the van`. Yeah, that's good for a week but it's crappy any longer than that. Plenty of homeless people start out living in their cars anyway. I think to myself, what's the main difference? -being able to stand up! If you're that desperate there's not much between a van and a car; you're still getting hassle no matter where you park it. Might as well go low key.

Hence, normal car and trailer if I need it methinks... like a little guy trailer.

However, maybe I should compromise with a T5 instead of going mad downing to a Octavia... what mpg do you reckon you could get out of a T5 without spending silly money? That is, all the fairly straightforward mods. Assuming a T5 is more efficient to justify the extra 30% price that is (I don't go in for looks and speed).


Regards the Octavia. I wouldn't be leaving it as a standard car. First thing, privacy film, then curtains all around. Then a heater under the bonnet and the bed attached to the back of the seats. Even debating taking all the seats out and starting fresh a-la a van, to do insulation properly. Basically I reckon you can get the basics enough for a night or 2 in the back... but no storage... not without a trailer... which has the advantage of being able to decouple and keep things organised you see.

Plus I reckon that way you enforce discipline. It is so hard to keep a van light. I can't emphasise that enough.
This IS importantant. For example, I basically knew I had to go away in the van for 3 days or more because of the fuel costs vs B+B savings. That's what got me wondering. Not that you can put a price on the wonderment of just driving through France until... whenever you want! Pulling over... somewhere you'd never otherwise go... in silence... and sleeping for free.


I actually slept in the back of a fiesta van with a surfboard above my head for 2 days at a time once!

Basically I guess the 2 things of a car and camper don't compare. I say if you haven't done it - do it. But I guess I've been there and so I want to cut down a bit to something a bit more modest.

I still haven't found ULSD in Texas.

Hey - I am not trying to torture, only to act as an outsider looking in. :D

I think the issue here is that we don't know what you are after. I kind of took from the original and follow up posts someone who has a Transporter and wants to travel from the UK and elsewhere in Europe (e.g. Spain which is where I too would rather be) whilst spending as little as possible, and maybe living there for some time, maybe sleeping in the van. The fuel spend is a balance against other stuff - e.g. camping in the van vs staying in a hotel.

If you are keen to move to South America or Australia then you would be better off liquidating the Transporter for as much as possible here in the UK beforehand. There is a market for this vehicle here at the moment, especially in the current market with all of those guys who used to work for building or building maintenance companies setting up on their own.

I wish I was as young :D

And then when you move you need to sort out the best vehicle for those markets. In Aus I think Diesel is not popular and they do not have their own, so they import their oil and mostly make Petrol - so it is cheaper. South America I have no idea, some places like bio-ethanol, some Diesel, some petrol. You need to research, I am probably wrong here.

Lets assume you are looking to go overseas. You need to

a) decide when you will be leaving.
b) decide what to take vs what to leave.
c) liquidate what you leave for as much as possible.
d) arrange to transport what you will take for as little as possible.
e) 'live' until you leave on as little as possible.
f) save as much as possible using b-e

For e) assuming you still want to travel to Spain on as little as possible and still carry stuff then get a small van. As an example my company (not as in I own it, as in I work for it) are getting rid of Berlingo HDIs for around 2K, full servicing, at least 10 years of life in them but not tidy by any means.

Again, good luck. :thumbup: