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-   -   Researcher of new battery accepted my invitation for interview in this website. (https://ecomodder.com/forum/showthread.php/researcher-new-battery-accepted-my-invitation-interview-website-36954.html)

All Darc 10-23-2018 01:41 PM

Researcher of new battery accepted my invitation for interview in this website.
 
I get response from Maria Helena Braga, researcher who developed the glass electrolyte used in the new battery she and John B. Goodenough created.

I would like t ask the attention, if you allow me, of the Ecomodder moderator and adminstrator, for some questions :

Would you allow me, help me, to post the interview and following debate with forum member, in a place of spotlight/distintion of Ecomodder website ?

May I ask for some speciall supervision of moderators, just to ensure a welcome not confrontative atmosphere during the debate with the researcher ?
I'm sure almost everyone in Ecomodder are nice, but just in case someone get a bit out of line.

My idea it's to make a detailed interview with my questions, and post it in the Forum, to be followed with other questions from Ecomodder forum members.

oil pan 4 10-23-2018 02:26 PM

Let's do it.
I would really like to see this glass battery thing pan out even if they are just cheaper.

All Darc 10-23-2018 02:59 PM

Yeah, let's get a nice interview.

But I need some response from adminstrator of Ecomodder, cause if she was nice to accept, we need to put the final interview in someplace of spotlight in the Ecomodder website.

Daox 10-23-2018 03:00 PM

Yeah, we can certainly do that. Way to take some initiative All Darc. :thumbup:

All Darc 10-23-2018 03:03 PM

Thank you.

:)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daox (Post 582102)
Yeah, we can certainly do that. Way to take some initiative All Darc. :thumbup:


oil pan 4 10-23-2018 03:23 PM

Ecomodder exclusive interview?

All Darc 10-23-2018 03:32 PM

Well, I think it is.

I plan to try questions not found in the dozen web reports about the discovery, followed by questions of ecomodder forum members. It could be the most complete insight about these new promissing bateries posted on web.

Quote:

Originally Posted by oil pan 4 (Post 582105)
Ecomodder exclusive interview?


redpoint5 10-23-2018 04:06 PM

  • Doesn't solid state imply a non-chemical store of energy?
  • What voltage does the cell produce?
  • What method is used to charge the cell and is it tolerant of over-charging?
  • Does it require a BMS?
  • How flat is the discharge curve?
  • If dendrites do not form, then can the cell be discharged completely without causing undo damage?
  • What are the current development challenges?
  • How difficult/expensive is creating a sub-micron layer of lithium?
  • If sodium is used, is there risk of fire if a damaged cell is exposed to water?

All Darc 10-23-2018 05:08 PM

-I will try answer from the articles I saw and interviews. But I will also send her the relevant questions of these anyway.

- It's indeed "glass" and not glass, and not. It's "glass" particles and not a single piece. She did a jelly roll version. It uses a liquid between the crystal pieces, If I remamber well.
Don't know about optical properties, but electrolyte properties of transmission it's almost the same as liquid Li-Ion.

-Produces 3V, or 6V when the capacity increases over cycles.

-Challenges (suposed) it's scaling-up. Need to try larger version to see if works as good.

-It can use sodium or lithium.

-Charge discharge curves :

https://mk0nextbigfuturj5ioe.kinstac...-1-730x430.gif

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-7pCjz6OVm...atebattery.gif

https://insideevs.com/wp-content/upl...te-battery.png

-Oceans do not got fire. oK,
I'M JUST KIDING IN THIS SPECIFIC QUESTION :D

Quote:

Originally Posted by redpoint5 (Post 582108)
  • Doesn't solid state imply a non-chemical store of energy?
  • What voltage does the cell produce?
  • What method is used to charge the cell and is it tolerant of over-charging?
  • Does it require a BMS?
  • How flat is the discharge curve?
  • If dendrites do not form, then can the cell be discharged completely without causing undo damage?
  • What are the current development challenges?
  • How difficult/expensive is creating a sub-micron layer of lithium?
  • If sodium is used, is there risk of fire if a damaged cell is exposed to water?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Old Tele man (Post 582107)
My questions:
1) The word GLASS connotates brittleness and fragility, so what KIND of glass is used?
2) Could TEMPERING help?
3) What glass purity (optical transmissibility) is required?


All Darc 10-23-2018 05:14 PM

John B. Goodenough, battery innovator pioneer.

Go Johnny go...go...



http://i67.tinypic.com/33jmxk1.jpg

oil pan 4 10-23-2018 06:10 PM

Ok because the other articles I saw made it seem as if the electrolyte was a solid chunk of glass.
Glad I wasn't the only one who was thinking that.
Somethings always get lost in translation going from the engineer or physicist to the guy with an English major writing the article.
This is why it didn't make any sense to me in the conventional form.

Holding the electrolyte in a glass media sounds kind of like the concept of an absorbed glass mat lead acid battery.
The way the battery develops more capacity over cycling reminds me of the process of "forming" a lead acid battery developed by Gaston Plante.

Does the glass battery require any special elemets like cobalt or rare earths?

How much abuse can they take? As far as charging and discharging?

How long will they will last?

How can we build one, or 24?

redpoint5 10-23-2018 06:29 PM

Ok, next question is how does capacity increase by 6x as the battery is cycled? Most batteries degrade with use, but considering there is no dendrite formation I would expect the cell to have a very flat charge/discharge capacity, but certainly not increase.

All Darc 10-23-2018 07:50 PM

-No cobalt, no rare things. That's why it will be (in theory) much cheaper, specially the ones made with sodium.

-In early 2017 the articles said 1.500 cycles, but today they say 23.000. I think in the first articles they hadn't reached much cycles of test. It will charge in minutes rather than hours.
Now lawyers will count the battrey in divorce cases, and you will be save the battery for future wifes.

-With 23.000 cycles it will last almost a lifetime.. Or last as long you don't destroy it in a car crash. ;-)
It works even in minus 20 celsius degree. No fire hazard. No need of expensible chargers devices (I think).

https://66.media.tumblr.com/7fe87386...amj8o1_500.gif

-The capacity increase, according the articles and interviews of Maria Helena Braga, was due a gradual polarization of electrolyte (along cycles) acting as supercapacitor. But one skeptic scientist made a critic and said it could only became so much more powerful because lab batteries use to have a much higher amount of electrolyte compared to active elements of battery itself.

-That's why one question of mine will be about electrolyte amount in her battery, or if batteries with different percentages of electrolite have the same increase capacity curve.
Braga made coin batteries and one jelly roll battery. If the increase curve it's similar in the two types... In one article she said that had similar data drom different batteries in many different instruments, including a glove box (sealed box with acsses ony by a tick rubber glove build in the box's structure).

Glove box avoid contaminations from evironment :

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/i...6Fly29Syw6hMZ5

-They are still in pattent stages, so they will not reveal the full secret to we built one. I presume, my guess, that when the patent get ready, they will be able to send samples to the skeptic scientists test themselves.

redpoint5 10-23-2018 08:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by All Darc (Post 582135)
-No cobalt, no rare things. That's why it will be (in theory) much cheaper, specially the ones made with sodium.

Tesla already has cobalt down to 3% in their batteries, so it isn't a huge expense for them.

Is that real? If so, it's worth the crash to be proven invincible.

Quote:

-The capacity increase, according the articles and interviews of Maria Helena Braga, was due a gradual polarization of electrolyte (along cycles) acting as supercapacitor. B
That doesn't sound right at all. Supercapacitors work by storing static electricity on an enormous surface area. Their capacity doesn't increase after many cycles, at least not by 6x. Furthermore, they store a fraction of the energy that chemicals can.

I need to have the principle function of the battery explained in layman's terms. There are only 2 ways that it could possibly store energy; as potential chemical reactants, or as a static charge.

All Darc 10-23-2018 08:18 PM

Tesla said their new battery was just 50% higher in energy density than the best comercial on market. Maybe this announce, of a model 50% better made Braga&Goodenough team change the claim to 2x (it was 3x in earlier reports) times more dense than any other lithium ion battery, since now it probably compares to Tesla.
But Tesla charger device it's about 50% the price of their battery, if I remamber well a interview of a scientist.

Your point it's interesting. I can't explain it. That's why I will send the doubts to her.

I imagined it was you in the crash... ;-)

Quote:

Originally Posted by redpoint5 (Post 582138)
Tesla already has cobalt down to 3% in their batteries, so it isn't a huge expense for them.



Is that real? If so, it's worth the crash to be proven invincible.



That doesn't sound right at all. Supercapacitors work by storing static electricity on an enormous surface area. Their capacity doesn't increase after many cycles, at least not by 6x. Furthermore, they store a fraction of the energy that chemicals can.

I need to have the principle function of the battery explained in layman's terms. There are only 2 ways that it could possibly store energy; as potential chemical reactants, or as a static charge.


redpoint5 10-23-2018 08:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by All Darc (Post 582139)
Tesla said their new battery was jsut 50% higher in energy density than the comercial on market. Maybe this announce, of a model 50% better made Braga Goodenough team change the calim to 2x times more dense than any other lithium ion battery, since now it compares to Tesla.
But Tesla charger device it's about 50% the price of their battery, if I remamber well a interview of a scientist.

Your point it's interesting. I can't explain it. That's why I will send the doubts to her.

Even if it had identical energy density as a Tesla battery, but could be rapidly recharged and not suffer degradation, that's all the industry needs.

Who cares what the range of an EV is as long as it can go about 200 miles and be rapidly recharged without damaging it. That actually solves the biggest problems. Cost being another big problem. $10,000 for what is essentially a gas tank is a hard pill to swallow.

All Darc 10-23-2018 08:48 PM

Exactly :)

But for electric airplane and large drones (air taxi) we would need 10x the density of the actual (not Tesla) Li-ion batteries.

With 10x density, and electric motors about 3x or 4x more efficient than gasoline/herosene fuel engines, the electric planes would be able to fly nearly as long.

Nasa also found that with many small electric propeller anlong a wings, they need much less energy to take off than with two large propellers.

Quote:

Originally Posted by redpoint5 (Post 582141)
Even if it had identical energy density as a Tesla battery, but could be rapidly recharged and not suffer degradation, that's all the industry needs.

Who cares what the range of an EV is as long as it can go about 200 miles and be rapidly recharged without damaging it. That actually solves the biggest problems. Cost being another big problem. $10,000 for what is essentially a gas tank is a hard pill to swallow.


redpoint5 10-23-2018 09:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by All Darc (Post 582145)
Nasa also found that with many small electric propeller anlong a wings, they need much less energy to take off than with two large propellers.

I'd be curious to read that paper. More propellers are usually inefficient. Heck, even more propeller blades tend to be less efficient. The most efficient helicopters use 2 blades.

This is a big reason why drones aren't efficient. That, and they aren't aerodynamic in forward flight.

All Darc 10-23-2018 09:08 PM

More small propellers, very small, generates more lift in wings like that :

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/6FYn6O5t1L4/maxresdefault.jpg

https://media.digimonostation.jp/wp-.../x57nasa01.jpg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6FYn6O5t1L4

oil pan 4 10-23-2018 10:14 PM

If these batteries can charge so fast what's the upper temperature limit?
Because it's going to produce heat.

redpoint5 10-23-2018 10:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oil pan 4 (Post 582151)
If these batteries can charge so fast what's the upper temperature limit?
Because it's going to produce heat.

Not necessarily though, if the internal resistance is sufficiently low. Capacitors generate very little heat by accepting a static charge, and All Darc mentioned that this battery operates as a capacitor, at least partially so.

All Darc 10-23-2018 10:24 PM

That's a good question. The efficience it's over 99%, I believe, so the heat would not be very high.

The most polemic point, and I was leting it to the end, is that they siad it can convert some heat from room to electricity.

Quote:

Originally Posted by oil pan 4 (Post 582151)
If these batteries can charge so fast what's the upper temperature limit?
Because it's going to produce heat.


oil pan 4 10-24-2018 12:20 AM

I have blown up capacitors.

So the battery is partly endothermic?

All Darc 10-24-2018 12:59 AM

I don't know.
One report talked about some principle on quantum theory. But it was more about to explain lithium in both, cathode and anode.

Quote:

Originally Posted by oil pan 4 (Post 582155)
I have blown up capacitors.

So the battery is partly endothermic?


freebeard 10-24-2018 12:39 PM

Thank you for taking this initiative.

https://66.media.tumblr.com/7fe87386...amj8o1_500.gif

I suspect the clip ends just before things get really bad. With the motorcycle going under the chase car and the driver slamming the brakes with the guy poised on top.

redpoint5 10-24-2018 01:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by freebeard (Post 582187)
https://66.media.tumblr.com/7fe87386...amj8o1_500.gif

I suspect the clip ends just before things get really bad. With the motorcycle going under the chase car and the driver slamming the brakes with the guy poised on top.

Totally, and utterly, invincible.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aI0euMFAWF8

All Darc 10-24-2018 01:25 PM

No more questions ??

I will collect the questions you guys made, add my own, and some introduction for interview, and send to Maria Helena Braga. And cross finger to her get time to respond soon.

If things went right, and based in her answers, let's see if she accept to respond a second round of questions you may get by reading what she says.

It could be nice if she answer the question in a video, like in a live, as it would be fast for make. Do Ecomodder have a video channel ? It would be ideal.

redpoint5 10-24-2018 01:54 PM

You could simply record it, save to Youtube, and link here.

For a back and forth exchange, a Skype conference call could be setup.

oil pan 4 10-24-2018 02:07 PM

Why does ecomodder not have a youtube channel?

Daox 10-24-2018 02:11 PM

It does. Darin and I are too lazy to make videos for the most part. :)

https://www.youtube.com/user/EcoModderDOTcom

redpoint5 10-24-2018 02:12 PM

Who owns Ecomodder? That would be the person to ask.

All Darc 10-24-2018 02:32 PM

How do I recover my skype passworld if I only remamber the meail i used to create the account ?

redpoint5 10-24-2018 02:38 PM

Sounds like a good Google question.

All Darc 10-24-2018 02:40 PM

I don't even remamber if I register with my complete name or if just with the first and the last.
I want to find my account and then request skype my old passworld.


Edited : I managed to recover my Skype acount now.

Quote:

Originally Posted by redpoint5 (Post 582213)
Sounds like a good Google question.


oil pan 4 10-24-2018 04:35 PM

Sell me this battery on this glass battery over a lead acid forklift battery for off grid applications.

All Darc 10-24-2018 05:32 PM

Lead acid have about 1/5 of energy of a prime Lithium cell phone battery.

This new battery will have 3x the energy of the best lithium batteries already on market (not counting Tesla new model).

So you get 15x more energy density than lead acid batteries. Or, since after hundreds cicles the advantage over ordinary Lithium cell changes from 3x to 10x energy, you will have 50x more energy density than lead acid batteries.

And it also work even at minus 20 celsius, and have 23.000 cycles, instead of 300 cycles of lead acid. And it's also eco friend, while lead it's a hazzard to environment.

Well, if the research conclusions it's right. Let's hope, cross finger, to be right.

Quote:

Originally Posted by oil pan 4 (Post 582233)
Sell me this battery on this glass battery over a lead acid forklift battery for off grid applications.


oil pan 4 10-24-2018 09:20 PM

Let's pretend like weight and space are not a factor.
Only price, depth of discharge, life span, reliably matter.

I already have one forklift battery for off grid experimentation, it's just a baby at 560lb and I don't have much problem moving it around. I should be able to handle a couple of 2 ton 24v batteries.

All Darc 10-24-2018 09:56 PM

I will make a offer you can't refuse...

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-s0xX-pgSj1...t%2Brefuse.jpg

:D

Well, with 23.000 cycles, it can last a lot. Just that makes it a best optium than lead acid, since lead acid it's around 300 cycles, so the solid state have 76 times longer life.
Even if a lead acid was still 50% the price of this new solid state battery for the same Kw/hour, by calculations the Braga solid state battery would last much longer, making it 37 times better if you think for decades. But even thinking as just 6 year investment, if would be cheaper for such years, since lead acid don't last even 3 years in general.

You can discharge it complete or nearly, If I remamber well, and charge very fast, in minutes. Works well on very hard winter too.
With deeper discharge you don't need too much extra KW/hour battery, making the Braga battery another advantage, since it could be a small model with even less KW/h than a giant lead acid that's reccomended to discharge only 50% or 60%.

I reccomend you to accept the offer, since the second round would be... well... be too hard:

https://www.indiewire.com/wp-content...t-ii.jpg?w=780

:eek:

Quote:

Originally Posted by oil pan 4 (Post 582273)
Let's pretend like weight and space are not a factor.
Only price, depth of discharge, life span, reliably matter.

I already have one forklift battery for off grid experimentation, it's just a baby at 560lb and I don't have much problem moving it around. I should be able to handle a couple of 2 ton 24v batteries.


All Darc 10-24-2018 10:04 PM

Long and technical :

https://www.researchgate.net/publica...geable_Battery

freebeard 10-24-2018 11:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daox
It does. Darin and I are too lazy to make videos for the most part.

https://www.youtube.com/user/EcoModderDOTcom

Aha! I found that a while ago, all [5?] videos.

I didn't know you're soliciting questions. I don't know, maybe what form factors (pouches vs cylindrical), manufacturability of sizes from watch batteries up the submarine batteries oil pan 4 is waving money about.


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