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-   -   S10 radiator fan changes? (https://ecomodder.com/forum/showthread.php/s10-radiator-fan-changes-1444.html)

bennelson 03-17-2008 07:10 PM

S10 radiator fan changes?
 
Does anyone have first-hand experience with removing or disabling a belt-driven radiator fan?

My 4 cylinder 5 speed manual Chevy S10 truck is only getting about 24 mpg.

I put a can of Seafoam through the gas tank and have a new fuel filter, but need to let the penetrating oil work on the rusty fuel lines before installing it.

My tires are pumped to 45 psi and my radio antenae is removed because the radio doesn't work anyhow.

I noticed that the serpertine belt is pretty worn and should be replaced soon. That belt runs the water pump, fan, power steering, radiator fan, and alternator.

If I am replacing the belt anyways, can someone suggest what I might want to get off it to improve fuel economy?

It seems like the radiator fan shouldn't be that hard to remove. I have also heard of removing or "turning off" the alternator.

Any tips for the power steering?

Please help me get started with the easy things first here, I would really like to hit 30 mpg with this truck.

I do have a new air filter in there. I haven't looked at the spark plugs yet. Would new plugs and wires help with fuel economy?

I bought this truck in January and really haven't worked on it yet at all.

If I can get the fuel economy on it up, then I can sell my beater Dodge Shadow and drive the electric Metro on short trips and the S10 for longer hauls.

Thanks!


PS - I would eventually like to do a lightweigt "aerocap" for the truck as well.

bennelson 03-17-2008 07:37 PM

Frank, did you just put a shorter belt on? Or did you do something else to it?

bennelson 03-17-2008 08:33 PM

So you remove the fan blade from the pulley, that way the pulley still spins and you still use the same length belt?

You get better fuel economy because there is less resistance from not having the fan pushing the air?

brucepick 03-17-2008 09:51 PM

http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z...k/EFan_288.jpg
See all that nice extra working room available with electric fan instead of clutch fan??

Quote:

Originally Posted by bennelson (Post 14760)
So you remove the fan blade from the pulley, that way the pulley still spins and you still use the same length belt?

Yup. On my car there were four studs mounted on front of water pump. Pulley was slid on first, and the fan clutch base was slid on in front of that. Remove the four small nuts holding fan base onto the pulley and it comes off. Put the nuts back on to hold the pulley onto front of pump. One stud worked loose from the end of pump shaft. Bit of a pain getting it all back together again. So be gentle on the nuts when you loosen. Of course your GM thing might be a bit different but I'm sure the basic idea is the same.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bennelson (Post 14760)
You get better fuel economy because there is less resistance from not having the fan pushing the air?

Exactly. True that there's a temperature-driven clutch between the fan and it's drive pulley. But you can see that it spins all the time, just spins faster when things get hot. So your mpg or power gain comes from not having to spin it and push air all the time.

I found that on open roads with oem grill, I was fine under any conditions even in the hottest weather. Anything 30 mph and up was fine due to the airflow over the radiator. Idling, stop and go traffic will need an electric fan or something to provide cooling. It's possible to drive without that need if you can kill the engine when in those situations. Any regular traffic light, I think you can get by without a fan because you're not stopped very long.

With a grill block you might find it getting warmer more often. At about 65 deg. with the grill panel you see in my avatar, the fan did come on when on any kind of mild upgrade Interstate. Downhill it would cool off and the fan would switch off. That opening is only about 70 sq. inches, about half the stock grill opening area. I'm currently making a new one with 100 sq. inches opening for warm weather use.

MetroMPG 03-18-2008 10:05 AM

Ben: you've got an extra electric radiator fan (with a shroud) you just yanked out of the Metro. Use it in the truck.

EDIT: and if you're going to be doing mostly highway with the truck, you'll definitely have to lose the square cap to get good mileage.

bennelson 03-18-2008 10:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MetroMPG (Post 14833)
Ben: you've got an extra electric radiator fan (with a shroud) you just yanked out of the Metro. Use it in the truck.

EDIT: and if you're going to be doing mostly highway with the truck, you'll definitely have to lose the square cap to get good mileage.

I was exactly thinking about using the Metro fan in the truck!!!!!!

I need the cap for now for my work. I have equipment that I need to move around that I can't let getting rained on .

I plan to do an aerocap once the weather is a little nicer and I have some time to work on it, then I can sell the green cap. (it is a little heavy!)

bennelson 03-18-2008 07:25 PM

I noticed that there is a big cover over/above the radiator that appears to be the intake for the combustion air.

Is that so the air is warmer going into the engine? (warmed by the heat of the radiator?)

I thought I heard that cold air combustion burns cleaner = less pollution.

What temperature is best for fuel economy?

Since I have to move this cover to get at and disconnect the belt-driven fan, should I do anything with the air intake while I am at it?

suchy21 03-26-2008 03:11 AM

My first ecomod was swapping out belt-driven fan for an electric fan in my Ranger. Not sure yet on the FE changes, but the engine (and thus cabin) heats up more quickly in the winter. Also, cab noise is noticeably lower.

How-to articles for the fan swap in a Ranger, presumably similar to the S10:
http://www.therangerstation.com/Maga...FanInstall.htm
http://www.rangerpowersports.com/tech/?p=126

My 16" Proform Electric Fan:
http://www.partsamerica.com/ProductD...egoryCode=6003

bennelson 04-06-2008 12:23 AM

Hey everyone,

I finally got to working on ecomodding the S10.

There is a big cover over the fan. I removed that and got a look underneith.

This truck has kinda a big funnel to make all the air going through the radiator get sucked through past the fan.

I removed the mechanical fan. After starting the truck up, the first thing I heard was the noise of something falling off, immediately followed by the serpentine belt.

Turns out the nuts that hold the fan on also hold on the pulley the belt runs around.

I put the pulley back on with the nuts and a couple of washers to space them out (threads didn't run all the way down)

I did a zero carbon run over to the auto parts store and picked up a new serpentine belt. The old one wasn't broken, but looked like it must have been the original belt on the truck.

Figured if I have everything apart under the hood, I should at least replace that belt.

I pulled the electric fan off the Metro's radiator.
I put it in the S1o right against the radiator and zip-tied the top of it, then drilled a hole through a plastic part on the bottom of the fan frame and put a long screw through it to hold it on the bottom.

Now I need to figure out how to wire up the fan. It has two wires on it. I noticed that reversing the power leads reverses the fan direction.

I will need to make sure I get the suck/blow thing right on this. Radiator fans suck, right? Air goes through the radiator from the wind and driving fast. Fan should also suck so air is going IN through the radiator. Do I have that right? Just don't want to screw up and fry my engine!

What's the best way to power the fan? The truck has very few accessories - no airconditioning.

Should I run a wire through the firewall to a high amp DC switch I can install in the dashboard? Otherwise, I could put a relay in and use a lower power switch. Would be the first time I have done anything with relays, but I think I can figure it out.

Any other way to wire this up? Thoughts?

http://web.mac.com/benhdvideoguy/iWe...s/DSC05995.jpg
Mechanical Fan removed - still old belt

http://web.mac.com/benhdvideoguy/iWe...s/DSC05997.jpg
Geo Metro Radiator and Fan

http://web.mac.com/benhdvideoguy/iWe...s/DSC05998.jpg
Geo Metro fan installed with zip-ties and a screw.

suchy21 04-06-2008 09:44 AM

Rad Fan
 
Yes, you want this electric fan (as it will be your primary cooling fan) to be a "puller".

To power the fan, I would suggest buying a temperature-controlled relay like http://www.partsamerica.com/ProductD...pe=600&PTSet=A.
(You'll probably have to enter your zip code to see the part). This relay has a temperature-sensing probe that activates the relay to switch your fan on above a certain temperature, which is the advantage of an electric fan. If you were to run the fan constantly, you would be better off with the belt-driven fan.

Another option (cheaper, but not as automatic) is to wire up your proposed switch in the cabin so that you can manually switch the fan on and off. If you monitor your coolant temperature gauge while driving, you can manually switch the fan on when it is getting hot.

Whichever option you choose, I would suggest the following electrical connections:
+ terminal: Ignition-controlled positive (like an unused slot in the fuse box?)
- terminal: Body ground

Also, if you have any issues with the attachment, there are specialty zip ties with pads for aftermarket electric fans that thread through the fins in the radiator to create a more secure attachment.

One potential problem I see with your fan is that, being from a Metro, it looks to be smaller (diameter) than the stock S-10 fan. Is that the case? If so, this could result in inadequate cooling abilities, as the fan does not force airflow over the entire face of the radiator. Just something to monitor once you start driving it.

lovemysan 04-06-2008 09:50 AM

That fans blade is designed to suck. I removed the clutch fan from a friends 2.8 s10. I installed a thermal switch behind the radiator to run the fan. It did not work very well. It either overheated or ran too often. For an E fan system to work properly you need to run the fan using a water temp sensor installed on the intake. Something like this should work.

http://store.summitracing.com/partde...5&autoview=sku

You could probably source your parts off of a cavalier or sunfire, considering they have the same engine & a factory efan.

bennelson 04-06-2008 10:14 AM

Thanks for the input.

The Metro fan is smaller, but I think the radiator is oversized to start with.

This truck has almost the exact same engine as my wife's Pontiac Sunfire, which has a much smaller radiator and fan.

I figure this is something I can play around with. I will keep the original fan so I can put it back on if needed. The fan is pretty hefty. I can't imagine this NOT making a difference in fuel economy.

I think I will start with a relay and a dashboard switch and watch the temperature gauge.

MetroMPG 04-06-2008 10:41 AM

Be careful. I did this once on an old Rabbit I had when I was in high school - the thermo switch failed. I didn't even know what a thermo switch was at the time, so I just rigged a cooling fan switch in the cabin. Forgot to turn it on a few times until I noticed the engine pinging & the needle in the red! Poor bunny.

dremd 04-06-2008 12:53 PM

I have also had more than 1 thermal switch fail. I say if you want a thermal switch get something out of a junk yard, the ones I've had were expensive + ended up breaking.

Also . . .
If you can put the fan on the FRONT and use it as a pusher I've had dramatically better results. (Supra cools better with 12" pusher than the 16" puller)

MetroMPG 04-07-2008 09:05 AM

Differences between a pusher vs. puller fan? That's interesting!

metroschultz 04-07-2008 12:00 PM

re. pusher v. puller
It has something to do with the way the air flows through the fins on the rad.
Before the fan the fins create a lot of drag.
After the fan the drag works to your advantage.
S.

bennelson 04-17-2008 08:16 PM

I have been doing a little driving in the S10 lately.

I have the Geo Metro radiator fan hooked up to the S10 radiator in place of the original mechanical fan blades.

The truck is noticeably quieter without the mechanical fan noise.

So far, I have NOT NEEDED TO RUN THE ELECTRIC FAN. That's right no mechanical fan, and no electric fan! I am sure that will change once it gets warmer out.

Saturday, I will be driving it 30 miles each way to an event with the electric motorcycle strapped down in the bed, freeway driving the whole way. I will monitor the temperature gauge and turn on the electric radiator fan as needed.

Next weekend, i am going camping, and will be pulling a camping trailer AND the cycle. I will need to do a short test trip just to make sure the truck and radiator are up to it.

apgrok1 04-18-2008 09:08 AM

For robustness, you might want to attach two 1" strips of metal fron the top hinge of the radiator to the bottom. Then you can mount the electric fan to the strips for a more solid mounting.

bennelson 05-23-2008 09:28 AM

Temperature looked fine pulling the trailer going out camping.

Of course it's a fairly small trailer, and I wasn't driving real fast.

I think the oversized radiator helps.

The truck uses the same size (pretty big) radiator whether you have the 2.2L or 4.3L engine.

My wife's Sunfire has the same engine, but a much smaller radiator (and an electric fan).

Atilla the Fun 06-06-2008 03:52 PM

I'm new to this forum, so maybe I've missed it, but what year is your s10? And how is it that you're having such poor mileage? My current daily driver is an '89, with NO options. On a recent trip of over 200 miles, my s15 got 35 mpg with the tailgate up. My previous s10, also an '89, with the big 4.3 and every option, got 29 more than once. My own experience with this 2.5 liter 4 cylinder, 5-speed, 3.73:1-axle s15 is limited since I've only had it for 2 months now, but I can tell you from my previous one that in back-to-back testing, lowering the truck 2 inches was a solid 2 mpg, and so was dropping the tailgate. I got that one with a failing 3.08:1 axle in it, so I installed a 3.42:1 axle right away, along with 235/60R15 BFGoodrich Radial T/As on American Racing Equipment style 767 wheels in a 15x8" size. I also installed a cat-back exhaust before my first mileage check. My current s15 is on Chevy 15x7" wheels, with too-small 215/60R15 tires, and has not been lowered yet, and in fact has no mods yet. Both my trucks have had the factory airdam in place under the front bumper. I haven't yet thought to verify the size of the radiator, as I still have the one from the 4.3, and I'm not sure what fan I have, because I don't care. I have a good electric fan from my '91 Camaro that got T-boned while parked, and I will be installing that. Once I get this s15 lowered and put a 3.42:1 axle in it, I expect 39 mpg. Could be snow on the ground before I get that far, though. My Fiero is my priority.

bennelson 06-06-2008 05:45 PM

Hey Atilla,

Mine is a 95. Love to hear what great economy you are getting.

I think mine is just nothing fancy. It's fairly rusty underneith

Otherwise, it's just a real stock truck - 2.2L 5-speed.

After my first tank of gas I ever put through it, I was frankly a little disappointed in it's fuel economy.

Atilla the Fun 06-07-2008 11:45 AM

That should be the 2.2L before the Ecotec 2.2, If I'm not too much mistaken. Those poor little things have to work so hard to move a heavy brick like those redesigned s-10s. Your truck is a few hundred pounds heavier than mine. For an experiment, you could try one tank of gas not using 5th gear at all. How many miles on your truck? I forgot to mention that with both of mine, and in fact every car I buy, I use a can of RESTORE, you can find it at wal-mart. Are you on any of the s10 forums?

bennelson 06-07-2008 01:37 PM

105,000 miles on my truck, but the underbody looks like more, because we have so much salt on the roads in the winter around here.

Not a member of of any S10 forums, guess I would be interested if you can recommend a good one.

Atilla the Fun 06-09-2008 11:51 AM

Well, I've just registered with three a couple weeks ago, not sure which one I like best. www.s10forum.com, www.s10forums.com, www.mys10.net. hth

PatrickL 06-09-2008 02:32 PM

I've got a '97 S10 with the pre-ecotec 2.2 and 5 speed. I have removed all my tools and put 49 psi of air pressure in the tires. It has gotten just over 31 mpg on each of the last 3 fill ups. I was getting ~27 before removing the tools and pumping up the tires. I would think 24 mpg is a little low, but fuels are different in different parts of the country. I live in Western NC for reference.

I would like to know what kind of gain to expect by going electric with the fan.

whokilledthejams 06-09-2008 08:27 PM

I used to have a 95 4-cylinder GMC Sonoma (i.e., S10). When the fan clutch gave up the ghost, I bought an electric fan, wired it up all half-assed, and it worked really well. It actually ran slightly cooler, not to mention not having all the drag, weight, and vibration on the engine. I don't think I got better FE out of it, but I always consistently got 30mpg (I once got really excited about a 32mpg tank) on the highway anyway. Mine was a 5 speed, 2wd, with a tonneau cover, and lowered a tiny bit. Either way, it did make the truck smoother, quieter, and a little peppier-feeling, so I couldn't complain.

I don't miss that awful, awful truck. The last year I had it, I spent more money fixing it than I did on lease payments on an 05 Subaru Impreza the following year (vastly less useful, much more fun, faster, and about the same FE as the truck). Besides that, I don't miss getting roped into helping people move furniture.

Don't forget to change your U-Joints!

daklein 12-26-2008 08:55 PM

bennelson,
I have a '98 s10 4cyl manual (without factory A/C), and the power steering and the mechanical fan were not watching their backs. It is pretty simple to use a short belt to run just the alternator and waterpump. Not sure how this would work with A/C, you'd probably have to quit that bad habit at the same time too...

Remove the fan, but put the fan pulley back on for use as an idler pulley. grind away a little bit under the thermostat housing for clearance to the belt. In the direction of belt travel: Belt comes off the crank, around the idler and alternator as before. then over the top of the fan pulley (this is where you needed the clearance), originally went under the fan pulley. And back down to the crank, the water pump is driven from the back side of the belt between the fan pulley and the crank. The water pump is still driven in the normal rotation, the fan pulley turns opposite so you probably want the mech fan removed.

What's it worth, I don't know, it's directionally correct, I've moved on...

I did put an electric fan on, but have never used it because I didn't finish wiring in a thermostatic switch, and it is not required the way I drive. With normal practices discussed here, (turn off engine while coasting or stopped). I should have not bothered putting in the fan. Anyone want an elec fan from a v6 camaro, with a couple aluminum angle pieces to fit in a 4cyl s10? 20$ ? I've never towed anything, but I have had it like this for about 15 months and never seems to be an issue.

The steering is obviously not great for parking lots, but really it's much better otherwise, the steering does not change assist as you start & stop the engine.
Dale

extragoode 12-29-2008 01:04 AM

So you can just remove the belt from the power steering? I have been told something about looping hoses every time I've asked. I loved my s10, but I was only getting about 21mpg out of a 4cyl 5spd reg cab because of a leaky wiper ring that caused it to loose compression. Drove it like that for a couple years though before a deer finished it off. The tank still drove just fine once I wired the headlight back in place, but it wasn't worth fixing.

daklein 12-29-2008 02:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by extragoode (Post 80571)
So you can just remove the belt from the power steering? I have been told something about looping hoses every time I've asked.

Seems to be fine, I wouldn't loop the hoses. The twist bar in the ps control valve makes the steering wheel feel like it's hooked to the rack with a torsion spring (it is...) so it feels a little different at very low speeds. If it doesn't feel good, just put the belt back on.

Without the pump running, but with turning the wheel back and forth, you can get fluid spitting back out of the reservoir, until maybe the fluid level gets lower I guess. I have not noticed this on the s10. I have noticed this on my car, and a friend's ford, when doing lock to lock turns in the garage with the engine off, when checking tire alignment.

You know you are giving up something, assist in parking, which is usually just a convenience. Another more important thing to think about or test for yourself is how much assist your (or you wife's) particular set of arms need in a higher speed avoidance lane swerving maneuver. For me, it's fine, I'm used to it and a fast steer event is still possible, and safe, I feel.

festivaWES 12-29-2008 07:54 PM

Just buy a steering gearbox from a box style s-10 and swap it out. If you choose to go that route you would have to keep your a/c or get a bypass pulley in its place.

I currently have a taurus electric fan on my s-10 but it pulls way to much amps. My a/c is gone as well. I average 26mpg right now, but they only reason being is that i have a lead foot and i have 4.10 gears out back.

And dropping your tailgate does not raise your mpg's...


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