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-   -   School shooting on Brazil Today. (https://ecomodder.com/forum/showthread.php/school-shooting-brazil-today-37333.html)

All Darc 03-13-2019 08:54 PM

School shooting on Brazil Today.
 
Tragedy...
Today 8 people were killed by former students in a school. 10 people died if we count the shooter, since one shooter killed the other and then commited suicide.

By looking the video there was not much that could be done if a teacher or inspector had guns, like some people imagine.The first shooter arrive, looking like a student, with calm take a gun and shoot many students. If there was a teacher or inspector with gun, they would probably be the first target of the shooter.
I believe that even a police officer would be the first target, since the student would remove the gun and point to hin while outside og the policeman view fild.

After the huge panic there would be no way to students in panic stop, reach a teacher or inspector and describe the shooter and then the teacher/inspector go after the shooter to put hin down.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2NRB...has_verified=1

https://video32.mais.uol.com.br/1662...25225347518807

freebeard 03-13-2019 09:03 PM

Bummer. :(

redpoint5 03-13-2019 09:28 PM

Heartbreaking.

Someone fought back though. That's what it takes. Only a few people fighting back will save many.

If someone wants you dead, there's nothing you can do to prevent it. The point isn't to save the 1 person, it's to save the many others. Several people carrying guns who are not identified as carrying guns may have stopped the rampage before it got to 8 people. In the US, the body count is often higher.

There was a guy that came into the autopart store with a revolver on his hip. Unfortunately this is an uncommon practice here, at least where I live. If people routinely (and openly) carried, it would send the message to bad guys that they are likely to be met with prepared opposition.

My sister conceal carries. Doesn't send the message to not mess about, but she'd certainly respond if needed.

All Darc 03-13-2019 09:42 PM

The shooter had the surprise element. There was no time to a buch of people identify the shooter and move against hin, since the panic and the surprise element it's too strong. This could lead to miss identification of the shooter and people shooting other people while imnagining the defense response was just another shooter.

USA people have easier access to automatic guns or compact automati guns. These brazilian shooter had only a pistol or revolver, a hatchet and a crossbow.

Look the second link I posted, without the large blur effect on video. The second guy it's the second evil guy, and he attacked people with a hatchet.

Quote:

Originally Posted by redpoint5 (Post 593605)
Heartbreaking.

Someone fought back though. That's what it takes. Only a few people fighting back will save many.

If someone wants you dead, there's nothing you can do to prevent it. The point isn't to save the 1 person, it's to save the many others. Several people carrying guns who are not identified as carrying guns may have stopped the rampage before it got to 8 people. In the US, the body count is often higher.

There was a guy that came into the autopart store with a revolver on his hip. Unfortunately this is an uncommon practice here, at least where I live. If people routinely (and openly) carried, it would send the message to bad guys that they are likely to be met with prepared opposition.

My sister conceal carries. Doesn't send the message to not mess about, but she'd certainly respond if needed.


All Darc 03-13-2019 09:58 PM

Detail... the shooters planned suicide, so they had nothing to lose. They would not care if there was policeman with pistols, since the would hit the police by the back and then shoot the other people.

Your example of a citizen with gun on the hip, as intmidation against criminals, only works when criminals have something to loose.

redpoint5 03-13-2019 09:58 PM

I'm not going to watch a non-blurred video.

The surprise element is impossible to counter, which is why there will always be some casualties. Preventing all mistakes in responding to an attack is also impossible.

That said, when soldiers go out to confront a threat, they are given weapons instead of nice words. Friendly fire occurs, but mostly they just kill the enemy. Arming good guys is the only effective strategy in contending with bad guys.

It's a very tricky thing to weaken bad guys while not also weakening good guys.

Too bad these guys didn't start by killing themselves. It's all senseless.

oil pan 4 03-13-2019 10:51 PM

Well they passed a bunch of gun laws and violent crime looks like it's only getting worse.

Yeah the anti gun people here in the US always say people defending them selves will start shooting each other in a situation like this but as far as I can tell it's never happed at least in the US.

If I'm ever somewhere that gets shot up by some lunatic I'm running away. Screw everyone else. "Going after the shooter" is a nothing to gain everything to lose situation. Only way I would engage the shooter is if escape is not possible.
But they tend to initiate the deed in a kill box, some where that the exits are few and can be easily controlled that also happens to be a gun free zone.

All Darc 03-13-2019 11:05 PM

I'm in favor of remove guns from criminals, and allow some citizens (especial ones up to in terms of skills and emotional and clean record) to have and carry guns. But USA laws ar far too crazy, allowing almost anyone to buy automatic weapons.

freebeard 03-14-2019 12:41 AM

Please understand semiautomatic ≠ automatic. There're regulations involved.

Quote:

Detail... the shooters planned suicide, so they had nothing to lose.
We'll never know. One of them did, who knows what the other thought would happen.

redpoint5 03-14-2019 12:57 AM

I can agree with laws that take reasonable measure to not hand weapons into the wrong hands. As I've said, we require basic proficiency tests for getting a license to drive a vehicle, and I'm not opposed to a law requiring citizens to show proficiency in the safe handling of firearms, both a demonstration and written test. It should be equally cheap too, like $50 to take the test. Let the NRA administer it.

As far as engaging the shooter(s) go, I was born to. Doesn't matter if I'm armed or not. Opposing evil is the moral thing to do. Life is always lost, but rarely lived well.

All Darc 03-14-2019 10:25 AM

Redpoint, are you tall, strong or trained in martial arts, Krav Maga???

On Brazil once a criminal tried to broke into a house or a store (don't remamber details) and a private simple security guard (no trained) was able to stop hin. Police arrived, arrested the criminal and also took the security guard to the police station. The security guard had no license for the gun and was keept arrested. The criminal was released before the security guard.

redpoint5 03-14-2019 12:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by All Darc (Post 593642)
Redpoint, are you tall, strong or trained in martial arts, Krav Maga???

On Brazil once a criminal tried to broke into a house or a store (don't remamber details) and a private simple security guard (no trained) was able to stop hin. Police arrived, arrested the criminal and also took the security guard to the police station. The security guard had no license for the gun and was keept arrested. The criminal was released before the security guard.

I'm tall and stronger than most, but not trained in hand-to-hand combat. Doesn't matter if I was short and weaker than most. Opposing evil needs to happen regardless of the odds.

Shooters could always be stopped if people acted like an angry football mob rather than scared sheep. When shooting happens, people should channel their inner "Occupy Wallstreet" anger.

Any group of people needs a few leaders to give them direction and courage. I probably can't stop a shooter by myself, but if I lead a charge that gives others courage to fight back too, then we win.

Where I live, it is a citizen's right to carry a firearm as long as it is visible. They can carry a firearm concealed if they get a permit. My sister has a concealed permit and carries. Several of my friends conceal carry.

In the US, citizens have the same right to arrest a person committing a felony crime as law enforcement.

We have the same problem of property crime not being punished severely enough. My jetski and trailer was stolen a couple weeks ago. Probably some kid stole it. An appropriate punishment would be community service every weekend for a year if first offense.

oil pan 4 03-14-2019 12:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by All Darc (Post 593616)
I'm in favor of remove guns from criminals, and allow some citizens (especial ones up to in terms of skills and emotional and clean record) to have and carry guns. But USA laws ar far too crazy, allowing almost anyone to buy automatic weapons.

The problem is most of our laws aren't enforceed.
For example, something like 70,000 criminals per year lie on the 4473 instant background check form. It says on this form that if you lie on it there is a possible 5 year prison sentence and 100,000 fine. Only about 1 or 2% of those criminals are ever charged, but around 100% of them go out and buy a stolen or illegal gun.
Then around 70% to 80% of our gun murders are drug, gang, minority related. But non of the politicians care about blacks killing each other.

oil pan 4 03-14-2019 12:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by redpoint5 (Post 593654)
Shooters could always be stopped if people acted like an angry football mob rather than scared sheep. When shooting happens, people should channel their inner "Occupy Wallstreet" anger.

Yeah never underestimate the power of stupid people in large numbers.

freebeard 03-14-2019 01:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by redpoint5
As far as engaging the shooter(s) go, I was born to. Doesn't matter if I'm armed or not. Opposing evil is the moral thing to do. Life is always lost, but rarely lived well.

I saw this movie where Ido says "Run Alita!" and she does... right at the bad guy. It's a pivotal point in the story.

redpoint5 03-14-2019 01:16 PM

I have the mindset that problems need to be handled, not passed along to someone else. I don't want to deter criminals from robbing me, I want to stop them. Kicking the can down the road doesn't get rid of the can.

Similarly, if I'm involved in an active shooting scenario, the problem isn't that bullets are flying at me. If that were the root of the problem, running away might solve the problem. The root problem is whackos shooting at people, and it needs to stop.

As I've said, police aren't first responders, they are last responders. We're first responders.

All Darc 03-14-2019 06:47 PM

Redpoint, forgive me for what I will say. But you are being stupid with this thinking. You would probably die and let your wife without a husband and your daughter without a father.

redpoint5 03-14-2019 07:08 PM

I appreciate that perspective.

My wife's hot. She'll do fine finding another husband. Her income matches mine too.

freebeard 03-15-2019 12:46 AM

Quote:

Redpoint, forgive me for what I will say. But you are being stupid with this thinking. You would probably die and let your wife without a husband and your daughter without a father.
That's putting a lot of weight on a hypothetical.

Fat Charlie 03-15-2019 08:20 AM

Quote:

The best De-fense is a good O-fence. You know who said that? Mel, the cook on Alice.
Attempting to flee or simply cowering in panic are just as likely to result in your death, and unlikely to improve the overall situation. Refelexively attacking is a risk, yes, but no greater a risk than crying in place.

If finishing your day with a bullet in your head is a given, what other things would you like to happen today? Near the top of my list would be getting near the guy doing the shooting, because a small chance of making your day go better is better than none.

And if even just one other person in that room full of sheep thinks the same way, your chances of success increase greatly.

All Darc 03-15-2019 11:12 AM

Deppending of the position you are and the position of the shooter, it can be a suicide. If you are in front of hin and not very near, he can shoot you before your hands reach hin. If you are by his side and near hin, you have a chance if you are good and know tactics of fight.
It's also depends of how strong you are and how strong is the shooter.

redpoint5 03-15-2019 11:35 AM

Most of these shooters aren't tactically trained. I don't know what the odds are of someone accurately shooting a moving target is with regards to stopping them immediately, but it's probably fairly low. Have you ever seen the video of a guy shooting his lawyer outside the courthouse at an arm's length distance? He emptied the whole gun and the guy lived.

I'll take my chances even if the odds are poor. When you take no action, the Twin Towers crumble to the ground. When you take action, the bad guys plans get ruined (UA flight 93)

One time I ran with the intention of tackling a man with an axe. It was 3am and he was hacking at a car. A moment before tackling I recognized him. He had accidentally locked his keys in the trunk of his car and thought opening the trunk with an axe was a good idea. I probably should have called the police instead, but he didn't see me and I had the element of surprise on my side.

There's a reason my signature says what it says.

freebeard 03-15-2019 12:38 PM

Quote:

Deppending of the position you are and the position of the shooter, it can be a suicide.
Which is why I called it an hypothetical. Throw something to make a noise off to one side before you charge.

edit:
I wouldn't want to see the video (now being suppressed) of the shooting in New Zealand, but would look at a chart like football coaches use

https://www.wexinc.com/wp-content/up...rt_600x315.png
https://www.wexinc.com/insights/blog...et-to-success/

Fat Charlie 03-15-2019 03:58 PM

https://66.media.tumblr.com/34870730...Y271qz4rgp.gif

All Darc 03-15-2019 05:05 PM

Investigation pointed a third person, suspect of be involved, in planning of the shooting.

But our police is so "smart" that they took the guy for interrogation, asked hin the questions, let he go away, and just after that they checked his home and found proofs he was very involved.

And today in a mosque in New Zealand, 49 people was murdered.

Human nature...
That's why I hope warp drive don't became reality in this era, since the universe don't deserve such "flying snakes" around.

redpoint5 03-15-2019 06:41 PM

It's common practice in the US to not be under arrest until there is evidence. What would have happened here is an officer(s) would interrogate the suspect while other officers obtain a search warrant from a judge. The search would be conducted while the suspect was being questioned. If the suspect refused to cooperate, they would be arrested on suspicion of some minor crime. When more evidence is found, the major crimes would be charged.

Was the motivation behind the killings revealed?

I've got a friend in NZ right now. I'll have to see what they know.

freebeard 03-15-2019 07:14 PM

Quote:

Was the motivation behind the killings revealed?
If one wants to know what's going on one goes to Romania. Fomenting civil war in the United States

http://https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OvwqZQNVF14

It's more important than ever to subscribe to PewDiePie.

All Darc 03-16-2019 11:27 AM

I think they are not sure.
A forensic psychiatrist told that can be sure mental illness, but he failed to describe mental illness. Today almost nobody it's free from psychologic problems according some fields of modern psychology. Mental illness can go from a slight fobia to something, some repetitive gesture like light obssessive compulsion, and go to things like psychosis.
He pointed that the midia and politic parties blaming video games and internet are pointless, since according hin the shooter born with amental illness. The seconbd shooter was pointed by hin as someone with a weak mind, following the dominant first shooter.

Personally I think the shooter can be bipolar, psychotic, psychopath, borderline... Mental illness from many types, but something can had target hate on hin to reach the point of such violence. The social hate in social networks today can had some influence.
Of course normal people would not to such thing, even with a lot og violent games and hate groups on web. But we must think about the danger of such culture for people with some mental illness. And there are a lot, really a lot people with mental illnes, in degree of concern, in society.
I think people who kill a wife/husband for jealousy aree in similar category.

Let's remamber that in psychiatry they consider normal people who do not steal, who do not kill, who do not lie without good reason, who don't do a lot of things. Other scientists consider that if we take a lot of things we will end in a situation that almost noone is normal.

I don't know... the forensic psychiatrist sounded somewhat arrogant. Many peolle don't do crazy things for be afraid of get jail, and not because they are ok.

Quote:

Originally Posted by redpoint5 (Post 593760)
Was the motivation behind the killings revealed?

I've got a friend in NZ right now. I'll have to see what they know.


freebeard 03-16-2019 01:42 PM

Quote:

I think they are not sure.
My understanding is they have three in custody and a published manifesto. Don't expect any thing to come out of that, the NZ Prime Minister is using this to precipitate a gun ban. Similar to the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Port_Arthur_massacre_(Australia) where they lost 38.

NZ has also blocked 4chan and 8chan, and that has serious implications.

All Darc 03-16-2019 06:58 PM

OOPS... I was refering to the brazilian school shooting and not the Nerw Zealand shooting.

cRiPpLe_rOoStEr 03-17-2019 10:46 PM

I am still favorable for school staff to carry concealed.

All Darc 03-18-2019 12:09 PM

Teachers?
Inspectors?
They have no skills for such thing, and some angry sh...t head student culd find take the gun from one teacher and start a shouting.
And I wouldn't be surprised if a teacher shot another teacher during some arguing...

Quote:

Originally Posted by cRiPpLe_rOoStEr (Post 593886)
I am still favorable for school staff to carry concealed.


roosterk0031 03-18-2019 12:55 PM

Teachers are armed in several states, I only know of one that shot a toilet. Utah anyone with a permit can carry in school, I live in Iowa and could carry there.

https://www.daytondailynews.com/news...26Enx1sfR1OXO/

All Darc 03-18-2019 01:01 PM

Carry a gun is one thing. Know how to use in a emergence it's another thing.

RedDevil 03-18-2019 05:36 PM

This morning my daughter's 6th grade elementary class were discussing the Christchurch massacre. What happened, what could you do for the victims relatives, how would you punish the shooter, etc.
Then all hell broke loose; sirens, helicopters, and strict orders to stay inside.

Because this happened 3 miles out...

One person stepped into a tram and started shooting, seemingly at random, but apparently targeting a lady. She died after trying to escape through a smashed window, but the killer went outside too and shot her there, along with people who were trying to help her. The killer then fled in a stolen car leaving 3 dead and 5 seriously injured.

With the killer still on the loose everyone was advised to stay home if possible.
The parents had to take their kids from school, were admitted one by one through a single entrance while the rest was blocked. All the kids were crying.

The killer - a known criminal - was recognized based on video footage from the trams cameras and DNA in the car he hijacked to follow the tram and escape afterwards. Also his brother was arrested 1 km from my house, and a suspect parcel at that location was inspected by a bomb squad (but probably unrelated/innocent). The killer was arrested late in the afternoon.
While the killing appears to be relational it is still treated as a possible terrorist attack. This all is several hours ago but just as I type this another helicopter moves over.

All Darc 03-18-2019 06:10 PM

Crazy, frustrated evil people... today they prefer became news, the so called 5 minutes of fame, instead of die alone by suicide, overdosis, gunshot.
After this became a fashion it's hard to society find a way to stop it.

Another shoting, now in Netherlands :

https://news.sky.com/story/shooting-...uries-11669289

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5mkvo_Lha4

You kow the crazy guys, crazy man, the kind who shoot the wife when she left hin??? I think some shooting are almost like such guys... They lost the sense o belong to something, or lost some identity... Maybe the shoting are a mix ob both, xenophobia and identity in the mind of such disturbed people.

I can figure out what Redpoint will say... He will say that if one of the people who tried to help the lady had a gun to stup the shooter, lives could had been saved. In this case he is probably correct.

redpoint5 03-18-2019 08:34 PM

More guns won't reduce the overall number of deaths, even if it may reduce the number of mass shootings. Mass shootings/terrorism doesn't account for vary many deaths in the world. Terrorism isn't an issue I'm terribly interested in because it isn't very common.

Without a doubt, mentally stable and responsible people owning guns would reduce violent crime and the number of people killed in violent shootings. The problem is getting the firearms in the right hands. It seems those that would be the most responsible are the least likely to want the responsibility. Similar to how the best politicians are the ones that least want the job, or those that would be the best parents are the least interested in having children.

All of this is moot anyhow. We're moments away from being able to print firearms for next to nothing. Attempting to have a safer world by weakening the populace is a fool's errand. We need better people, not impotent people.

All Darc 03-18-2019 11:25 PM

If we want to sellect better people, it's not so difficult, like in politics. Just put a minimal wage or less as salary for politician, and without bank secrecy, and without be allowed to get presents, and all thiefs will run aways.

You can't print the bullets. Printed guns are made from plastic composites and are rough, unles they develop steel 3D printers, like some expensive printers used to create pieces in medical field fur replacement of some bones parts.

But to creaet better people, in a corrupt world, in a species like Homo Sapiens, with a lot of criminal genes, a criminal nature, it's a huge problem. I fear only genetic engineering will bring a huge step foward.
In your opinion, why do you think USA people are so violent if compared to european people?

Yes, not the best people are the ones who have more kids today and the ones who wishes more to carry a gun and find a reson to use it.

Low IQ and violence are connected, and inteligent people do not have today as many kids as dumb people.

Quote:

Originally Posted by redpoint5 (Post 593970)
More guns won't reduce the overall number of deaths, even if it may reduce the number of mass shootings. Mass shootings/terrorism doesn't account for vary many deaths in the world. Terrorism isn't an issue I'm terribly interested in because it isn't very common.

Without a doubt, mentally stable and responsible people owning guns would reduce violent crime and the number of people killed in violent shootings. The problem is getting the firearms in the right hands. It seems those that would be the most responsible are the least likely to want the responsibility. Similar to how the best politicians are the ones that least want the job, or those that would be the best parents are the least interested in having children.

All of this is moot anyhow. We're moments away from being able to print firearms for next to nothing. Attempting to have a safer world by weakening the populace is a fool's errand. We need better people, not impotent people.


redpoint5 03-19-2019 01:05 AM

3D printed guns are just one example of how we become more capable over time, not necessarily the only technology that people will use for violence. That sort of technology will continue to improve. Even if guns are banned, nothing stops a person from driving a truck through a crowd of people. The problem isn't the advanced technology; it's the people who use it maliciously.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&sour...53055773945682


US has a higher homicide rate than many other EU countries.
http://i.imgur.com/1jOEwlH.jpg


USA homicide rate is worse than many EU countries, but a bit lower than the world average. Who knows how much of it is cultural, and how much is biology?

https://images.huffingtonpost.com/20...arge-thumb.jpg

https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/wp...08-600x375.jpg

oil pan 4 03-19-2019 01:27 AM

My dad and his friends used to go to the hardware store and by all the stuff they needed to build zip guns in the 1960s. (I'm assuming they didn't by the ammo at the hardware store).
So you don't need a 3d printer to build a gun.

You can't 3d print bullets but they can be cast. Casting lead is like bronze age technology. Casing your own bullets for a fire arm has existed as long as firearms have been around.


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