Serial Hybrid F-150
 

Lets start off with a few things I know.

I know energy form conversions are inefficient. Do it as little as possible for fewer losses.

I like A/C drive systems for efficiency.

I've been soldering and playing with electronics since I was a kid, but I don't understand it as thoroughly as others I've seen here. I really enjoyed playing with PIC AXE Microcontrollers, and I don't like analog. And Analog, very tricky analog, is what power electronics are all about.

I know that what I'm suggesting is not a great idea from an efficiency/green standpoint... Right now. Batteries that would do what I need simply don't exist.

I have several goals:

Be Battery Ready. Everything in place to drop in a real battery technology, if it ever comes to pass...

Be redundant. Motive force should come from a place that doesn't cause a total failure of the vehicle if something goes boom.

Be reliable (which redundancy helps with). Electric drive is better than thousands of impact loads per minute. It's not about the smooth ride, but that it isn't abuse to itself.

Be easier to work on than a regular vehicle. It's way easier to rebuild a small generator motor than it is to rebuild a multi-cylinder engine that weighs more than I do.

Be modular. So, I can swap out gens and fuel types. Gas. Diesel. CNG. WMO. Propane. If an engine goes down, I just drive slower until I fix or replace it. I drive slow anyway most of the time.

What isn't on this list?

Any of the typical goals that people have when they're switching to electric. So, one has to throw away the pre-conceptions of what they think I want and look at this from a new perspective.

Would I prefer a battery electric? Yes, of course I would. But it just plain doesn't exist. Even if I were a billionaire with nothing better to do with my money, there is no battery. It hasn't been invented yet. A lot of really expensive wishful thinking about LiFePo, but there is nothing that will get me 800 miles on a charge. And that which pretends to do it costs way too much, among other problems.

I've already got a lead on a WarP 9 installed in an F-150. What little feedback I've gotten so far is telling me to go kill myself before I do this, it would be a better idea. I need to sort out how much of that it green elitist zealotry, and how much is real fact.

I know quite well how great Diesels are. That's why I've owned nothing with a spark plug for nearly a decade. I'm ready to take another step. I'm no stranger to the wrench, but my current living situation negates major engine work, and frankly, I'm getting too old for this sh!t.

I'll keep the tires tall and skinny. 35in is my target, but I'm willing to to compromise a little. Vehicle will see a lot of dirt road service, but I'm not a redneck douche. I just like the lower RPM and the higher seat. My vehicle is not a penis extension.

I just don't want to do things the same old backwards way anymore. I know its not a "best practice" objective, but it's the only possibility. I won't own something with a giant engine directly mechanical driven again. I'll walk before I do that stupid crap again. 50 miles is a long walk...

Interesting!

I take it you've got the funds for the aforementioned experiment?

Also: if you're going serial, I'd seriously consider adding a small battery pack so you can do some of your driving without running the genset, or as an energy buffer. Of course, that part could be modular too.

PS: that's funny! I love to see a good project, so I wouldn't discourage you if you really want to try it. Of course, you'll probably wish you had before you're finished, but that's another issue entirely. :D

I think it'll be cheaper than a 'real' conversion.

In having repeated this a few times, I've left out that detail by accident. I intend a regular car battery bank, because this is what they're made for. Large drain for short period of time, then idle/recharge. It'll exist mostly for acceleration. I mean for the generators to supply at-speed power.

If it isn't a contribution to knowledge then I may not do it. With so much hate for the idea, I may not bother.

There are two main issues I see, and you are probably aware of them.

1 Series hybrid (especially DIY) is probably going to be lossy, good chance that you will be farther ahead in terms of fuel consumption driving what you have.

2 You need a large motor, i.e. the transwarp should suffice, but you also need a large generator and engine if you wish to mostly eliminate the batteries and have a recognizable amount of power.

To try to get a handle on how much generator you need, I looked at an existing 150 converted to electric:
James Mannett's 2002 Ford F150

It uses 350 Wh/Mile (I guess)
144 volt system
500 amp controller
~40 mile range.

Weighs 5600 lbs with 24 batteries. And has power steering and brakes and stuff.

Since you are looking at the warp9, I took a look at that, it appears to handle ~500 amps for about 5 minutes, 300 continuous. Saw someone mention a 100kw run on a trans9, so that is 134 horsepower for best reliable performance expectation, ~3000 rpm (~150V) and 667A for short duration.

So for best sustained performance from the warp9 then, you would need a diesel generator that is at least 134 horsepower after the losses of mechanical to electrical, and the controller (and rectification?).

So now we have a couple real numbers to work with at least, to get in the ballpark, or at least have an upper limit on your power requerements.

A quick look at ebay, the cheapest 100kw generator is $4000,
Continental Diesel 150 HP 6 Cylinder Consolidated GE 100KW Genset Generator Used | eBay

It looks really big and heavy, and even used it costs about as much as batteries, but it looks pretty modular :) And it is likely to use even more fuel than its non electric counterpart.

I will go out on a limb here and say I hate your idea, sorry bro. Spend the money on batteries if you are bent. Also consider scaling down to something more personal transport sized if possible.

The trojan t-145 batteries in that truck look like they are $195 apiece, shipped, without any shopping around, and there are 24 of them, so that is $4680 worth of 144v DC power (which is what existing motor controllers like), so it doesn't make much sense monitarily unless you have a freebie 100kw diesel generator laying around and a 600 amp rectifier and 144 volts of buffer batteries.

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_saca...+T-145&_sop=15

Hi P-hack,
I was with you up to here:
Even at 5600 lbs, a F150 needs less than 30 hp to cruise at 65 mph. You might like to have 135 hp available for quick accelerations. But even steep grades, say Grapevine Grade, only needs about 60 hp more. In order to cruise and recharge something like a 45 hp generator would be sufficient. 90 hp if there is a long pass in the daily drive.
-mort

Ok, that makes a "little" more sense. I was assuming that the buffer batteries don't do much except reduce ripple. Still to have batteries that can provide enough amps to support what the warp9 is capable of, you need 12 of them that can deliver 600ish amps, plus figuring out how to charge them without overcharging them from the generator but without undercharging them also. And the generator output needs to be efficiently regulated to ~162 volts. But battery recharge needs to be managed after the batteries are drained so that there is sufficient power for motoring.

The price on large generators does not seem to drop in proportion to power at these levels though, but at least it doesn't look so much like you have a locomotive engine in the bed :) And the deeper discharge runs are going to affect automotive battery life.

Charging Information For Lead Acid Batteries

"Lead acid charging uses a voltage-based algorithm that is similar to lithium-ion. The charge time of a sealed lead acid battery is 12–16 hours, up to 36–48 hours for large stationary batteries. With higher charge currents and multi-stage charge methods, the charge time can be reduced to 10 hours or less; however, the topping charge may not be complete. Lead acid is sluggish and cannot be charged as quickly as other battery systems."

this thread hurts my head, lead is dead for a hybrid.

I know this is true. I love what I have. But, it's got 360k miles on it... I need to start thinking about something else.

I also think a Warp 9 is plenty.



Not really an apple to apples comparison, but pretty close.

Lets save these numbers for later in the reply, shall we?


134HP? I think your math is broken. If it took 134HP to push an F-150 down the road at 45 to 55 mph, they would all explode right now. It's getting to that speed that needs the extra, and I have absolutely no intentions of making the generator do that. I want to buffer it with a small battery pack. The batteries will get me there. The generators will hold me there. I don't care if it's zero to sixty on 3 minutes or so...

As a second point, just because the Warp 9 can do a thing, doesn't mean I have to make it do that thing. Performance is NOT my middle name. I'm slow and fine with that. The first thing this truck is getting is a bumper sticker that says "Go around, @$$hole!"

I think I covered this above. I'm not trying to find an equivalent. I just want something that rolls and is electric, even if it is a fraction of the capabilities of the original. The generators only have to provide the power needed to maintain speed, they don't have to get me there. And, the speed being maintained is about 45 to 55 mph. This thing will never know what an interstate on ramp looks like.

I think you're overstating what you think my expectations are...

I have something personal transport sized already. I need something that I can carry stuff with. A Honda Rebel Bobber and a VW Passat TDI make terrible farm trucks... Ever try putting a sheet of plywood in a Passat? Or, strap it to your back on a motorcycle that doesn't even have fenders? That idea, I hate....

If I needed 134HP, I'd hate my idea too, bro. But, I don't need 134HP. My Passat does 155MPH on a whole lot less than that. That number is nowhere near reality.

I appreciate your input guys, but you're aiming for performance levels I don't need or want.

65 miles per wut? I'm not going to drive that fast. This thing will spend most of it's life on dirt or poorly paved roads. Time spent above 45mph is going to be minimal, and at that, I don't see a reason to ever go above 55.

My Passat IDLES at 27MPH in 5th gear.

I need help overcoming the charge level issue of the tandem battery/generator combo.

Think of it more like an electric tractor and an F-150 had a baby.

I'm thinking a triplet of China Freight 8500KW/7000KW gens. I do recognize the point about batteries... A part of me just wants to see if I can do it with the car batteries as a surge buffer for acceleration. I think it can be done. But, I can also be wrong about that. But, at the prices cited above, I may just go with some real lead acid batteries anyway.

To go twice the speed, I'd need 4 times the power. To go half the speed, I need 1/4 of the power...

We already know it takes about 30hp to roll an F-150 at 70mph. I want 50. That's 20mph less. 3x 7kw = ~28hp. The 420cc engine are really about 18 each. That's 54 ponies, and I won't even have to push them to 100% to do what I want. I'm not asking for half the speed. I'm asking for about 65%. So, I only need a little over half of the estimated power that I'd need at 70. Bu y that very, very rough estimation. 20HP, or 15KW should be enough. I'm packing a full 30% more just to let the gens run in a more comfortable range.

Does this goal assessment seem a little more rational?

You're working from the top down, thinking like a drag racer. That kind of mindset is the opposite of my goal.

I do not care what the WarP 9 is capable of. I do not intend to approach the edges of it's functional envelope. It's just what is already in the truck and it'll do. I'm not trying to turn tires into smoke.

This thread gives yo a headache because you're explaining things that don't belong in the thread... 140hp? 65mph? I didn't come up with those ideas. I'm sure you have a lot to offer, but you've gotta come down out of the clouds to do it.

Hi camosoul,
Your math is a little off. But I'm in complete agreement: if 45 is your top speed requirement, 20 hp is plenty.
I really like the idea of a serial hybrid pick-up. In my dream I have 120 vac available for all my tools, fridge, electronics, etc. And then I can drive it all home.
-mort

Lol, clearly we have a requirements issue here.

I was using the warp9 to define an upper limit since there wasn't much else to go on, and a "regular" ev truck as a reference.

I suggest you look through evalbum and find something that fits your performance needs and then use that to figure out how much power it takes.

Very cool project. Looking forward to see what happens.

I'm sure my math isn't perfect, I'm just estimating in my head to see if what I want to do fits into the laws of physics. I can get more precise if the question is answered in the affirmative:

"Is it sane and possible to shove an F-150 down the road at 55MPH with 21KW @ ~120v?"

Let me get my slightly less crude math on...

Assuming "~120v" is what I'll get when I rectify the gensets... 21,000w/120v = 175a / 3 = 58.333a per gen. Top and bottom of gen head winding are on 30a 120v breakers. So, that's 60A before they pop. Math says China Freight isn't lying. Math says that's sustainable 65+MPH power presuming 30HP = 70MPH. I can peak to 8.5KW each and probably break 75MPH for a short period, which I will never do. They run leisurely at 45 to 50MPH. Could even shut off a gen and go dual.

To say it another way. I can create 180 Battery Amps that aren't Battery Amps with the gens. This occurs at 120V, which is equivalent to 10 12v batteries or 24 6v batteries. If I add in a pack that can non-destructively provide double that capacity, I can burst 540a, which is probably more than I need.

Appears sane and possible. Can someone contradict me?

What battery can give me 360A at 120v? How do I balance the gens' output with it on draw and charge? I almost feel like a static of 9 batteries gives a proper output if rectification gives me 120v even. Charged flooded cells usually top off at 13.4ish, eh? Weird how this works out...

Can someone contradict me in a way other than "that's not LIFePo and A/C drive in a Miata so it's not leet enough to be allowed to exist, I hate it!"

What I need to see is; how fast do other vehicles go while pulling 180 battery amps? Or better; Hey, you! Yeah, you! The guy who already has a working electric car. How fast are you moving when you're done accelerating and have leveled off to a steady 180 battery amps?

I must consider that my CoDA is going to be a mess compared to other EVs. I'll probably be about 25% worse in the Drag department according to how this EV performed when it had batteries in it, compared to the same pack and controller in a smaller truck.

I must also consider that my Revs will be lower with skinny 35in tires. It may be the first EV with a useful 1st gear? :-p

I can dig the 45 mph F150. I can dig the EV part. I can't imagine the buzz and inefficiency of 2 or 3 gensets on all the time. I'm not suggesting you kill yourself- that suggestion is usually reserved for me when I dare to suggest there is a human overpopulation situation. But you should think on this over a beer or 8.

P.S. I KNOW I've seen an S-10 or similar small truck converted to electric motor drive and there was a genset in the box. I even dimly think I recall the guy was a Canadian? IIRC his mpgs weren't all that astonishing. I even did a quick EM search but didn't find... :mad:

I've considered your point and it is very much valid. I want an exhaust system that it plugs into the same way as the truck.

I love slow-speed stationary engines, and the glorious mechanical sound of it can't be heard if the exhaust isn't quiet. It's the RPM, too...

The RPM isn't tied to holding a frequency, I'm rectifying it. I can drop the auto regulation for a servo stuck to a PICAXE monitoring throttle position and/or current draw. Joined with the exhaust it can plug into, I think I can reduce the horrible noise considerably.

I don't expect my MPGs to be even on par, but I might be surprised...

Genset efficiency is CRITICAL to something like this being successfull.

My fathers Miles ZX40 kei van (which is electric and weighs 2400lbs) uses a whopping 75amps x 50 volts (on a bad day) to go 25mph

Slow-Turning 5 kW Yanmar Diesel Generator

Using THAT generator he would get 88mpg driving down the road off the genset.

Now compare that to the genset he actually owns

Amazon.com : Honeywell HW2000i 2, 100 Watt 125cc 4-Stroke Gas Powered Portable Inverter Generator (CARB Compliant) : Patio, Lawn & Garden

and you end up with about 25mpg.

If you go with his "old" generator it gets even worse (think low 20's) and this is on a van that with the big 660cc motor gets 25-40mpg stock anyway)

so be carefull, the generator must be very efficient or this simply won't work out very well.

You're absolutely right. I'm a huge fan of the slow-speed gen set. It's on my to-do list for off-grid stuff, after I finish building the shipping container house and workshop... Would love to find a DIY grid-tie inverter, but I doubt the guvthugs would allow it...

I've got some experience with the China Freight Generators. I wasn't expecting much out of them, but ended up being very impressed. It took almost a year for power to be installed at my place, and I ran off of one of them 8 to 12 hours a day for a year. It sipped fuel in spite of being a 3600rpm friction and noise machine. It still starts up on a single barely adequate pull of the cord. I gave it to my (very old) parents as a backup in case of a hurricane/power outage because I have that much confidence in it. As old immobile as they are, they can get this engine started without hurting themselves. I have total confidence in these generators.

But, your point is still well taken. They aren't really efficient compared to the ChangFa/Yanmar, and assorted knock-offs. I have only too much experience with Listeroids... ;-)

I will consider this project a success if I get 23mpg @ 55mph. I'm sure I can get quite a bit more at 45mph. The objective is, and I restate it again, to create a battery-ready electric drive-train, awaiting real batteries to be invented, and still be useful to me in the mean time. No matter how many times I say it, I just can't knock the "it has to be more efficient" fetish out of peoples' heads. Yes, I'd like that very much. But, until real batteries are invented, we're still just kidding ourselves about that, no mater how much money we blow on Lithiums. Lithium is the best thing going right now, but it costs too much, it still doesn't reach reasonable ranges or charge rates, and it's perceived green-ness is more than offset by the ecological nightmare of manufacture, logistics, and recycling consumption. They're actually worse than a gas car, you just don't have to look at it. It's not in your face so you pretend it isn't so... Flooded Pb/H2SO4 is greener, by far, tho sluggish and inefficient, as another respondent pointed out. But, there is a reason they're still used in off-grid applications for stationary energy storage. Every part of them can be re-used and re-cycled with virtually zero environmental impact int he associated processes. Plante Cells can be DIYed with next to no specialty tooling...

As I examine it fiscally, I may convince myself to go with a low AH Pb/H2SO4 bank and use just one gen to boost when I draw discharge depth to a point I don't like. It is absolutely un-useful to me if I can't go 50 miles with it. Lets call this Plan B. I need a way to monitor my DoD anyway.

Lest anyone accuse me of being a hotrodder or that MY head is the one in the clouds, much of my distaste for this is because it is %100 series, downsizing the engine doesn't change that.

That generator has a 10hp (7.46kw) engine on it to make 5kw electrical.

So if, for example, that engine were directly clutched to an appropriate sprocket and chain to a wheel, the same vehicle could cruise at like 160mpg all day vs 88.

assuming %85 motor/controller efficiency, which is generous, and the %67 mechanical->electrical conversion of the genset (given).

Clutch in a motor in parallel, do some more maths and research bro, I'm out.

This is true.

But how does one accomplish such a task? Putting an engine to a drive system in such manner seems to negate anything else being there, thus, one is required to upsize the dino burner in order to accelerate and be useful.

This is certainly more efficient but exists only in SolidWorks.

Something beefy enough to accel with, and then drop to dino @ 25hp for cruising. We seem to be very good at doing the opposite of that...

Now, slow speed direct-drive electric sucks much juice, but already rolling... See, backwards.

Perhaps a hydraulic drive to front wheel motors? Pop open a bypass valve like a 'clutch.' Engage once rolling? It seems to do it this way, we need to seriously re-engineer how the mechanical side works. I might imagine it, but I doubt I could ever afford it.

Your warp9 (not a transwarp I assume) is set up to go through a clutch/trans, so lets assume that will work fine for the electrical. If it is an automatic it might not like having the motor not spinning.

You would need a distinctly different/smaller transmission for a small diesel engine anyway, harley davidson uses a divorced transmission and clutch fyi, but there are other options as well, such as a simple in/out box and starting the diesel and rev-matching, using electric to get you up to a speed where you could rpm match.

This is going to take a lot of (hopefully your) effort to figure out if it even makes sense, emergency generators are good for emergencies, but I can't get my head around a tiny diesel f150 on farm duty.

How about a getting a $300 trailer for your passat? I have one for my prius, and I basically have a 50mpg pickup on demand.

That isn't accurate though, his minivan is heavier and not as aero as the Honda Insight, a diesel of similar efficiency has trouble breaking 100mpg under normal driving conditions,

In other words the genset is only efficient when properly loaded, overloaded or underloaded MPG would be cut in half easily, this means that in this paticular situation Series wins.

You came up with the 88mpg at 25 mph figure for the kei, I wasn't changing the 25mph (or the kei part). I was using the exact same engine, and bypassing the generator, and the conversion/rectification, and the controller and the motor/drivetrain part, replacing all that with a chain and sprocket, and you say "series wins".

Sigh. good luck camosoul.

Passat totaled by 12 point buck. Project scrapped.

May i suggest the following project:

F-150 with the drive line from the Passat powering the front wheels.
Electric motor driving the rear, with manual control over push/regen.
A reasonable amount of battery capacity and a plugin charger.

Sorry about the passat, hopefully you are ok and the engine/drivetrain is salvageable, lots of potential there, but sucks how it was perfectly kinetic prior :/

The conversion factor is overcome by being able to hold the motor at its one efficient point, other motors might behave differently but that one would not work for accelerating direct drive or driving at any point other than WOT.

I'm not advocating unloading the engine, but if you want hybrid, the car is moving in a parallel system you can still charge batteries with the engine as needed, or assist with the load using the batteries.

From the site for that generator:
4.5kw output continuous (5kw max)

Consumption at 1/2 load 0.24 gallons/hour
Consumption at 3/4 load 0.30 gallons/hour
Consumption at full load 0.34 gallons/hour (4.5kw assumed?)

half load uses %71 of the fuel consumption as full load.
3/4 uses %88 of the fuel as full load.
So, like many engines, it likes full load, but it doesn't mean it is terribly rpm sensitive efficiency wise, most bsfc charts have a wider than taller island. And you can just use electric at those low speeds where it makes sense, no law against having a series sized motor on a parallel hybrid if the situation demands it.

But since we have a fuel consumption figure, lets look at the bsfc coming out of the generator:
.34 gallons is about 1.29 litres, or 1095 g of diesel, divided by 4.5kw is 243 g/kwh, when fully loaded, which is ok, on par with a saturn at peak bsfc.

But that is also fully loaded, and if the engine is capable of 200g/kwh then that is like a %20 penalty when accelerating (efficiently) and cruising, zero opportunity to recover it, plus rectification and controller/motor. You must pump up the batteries to load the engine during cruise, and eventually they get full. Parallel can far more efficiently apply the needed torque to the wheels and load /unload the batteries if that proves out, either when accelerating or cruising.

Unless all the mechanical/electrical electrical/mechanical conversions start approaching the same efficiency as a gearbox under various conditions, parallel wins, it is simply a matter of power management. Varying load is still a problem.

Series only is a glorified and lossy torque converter without lockup. PLEASE lets not make that mistake again!

I stripped off the FUBARed body panels today. No major underhood damage. It drives. But damage is far more than the value of the car.

I've always wanted to build one of these as a TDI: DDR Motorsport

Looks like I've got my donor vehicle... Budget for electric/hybrid shifted over... I was waiting for my mid-life crisis, but then I realize I already had 4 of them by the time I was 30... ;-)

I refuse to be set back and extorted again. I'll just have to kick ass instead.

Guess the thread itself is off topic for the forum at this point. It'll be kinda-sorta green. WMO/WVO. 55+ MPG (after ECU upgrade, passat was already running 51MPG, DDR is more aerodynamic and weighs less).

There is a school in South Florida that DDR hooked up with and are building a hybrid out of it...

http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:A...ydg5wEvU6twlCo :D

That lil trucklet might be more aero than stock! :eek:

Well, if I were looking to build a serial hybrid F-150 I'd consider to get hub-motors for the rear axle, and eventually replacing the stock one for another without the differential housing, and to replace the front differential with a directly-driven electric motor (because unsprung weight in the front wheels is more problematic than in the rear wheels due to the higher effort required to the power steering), leaving plenty of room to assemble the battery packs (thus improving the weight balance between the axles for higher stability) and avoiding driveshaft workarounds. Another electric motor could be set for the air conditioner, power steering pump, vacuum supply for the brake lines and to also work as a generator to feed the generic comfort features.