EcoModder.com

EcoModder.com (https://ecomodder.com/forum/)
-   Off-Topic Tech (https://ecomodder.com/forum/off-topic-tech.html)
-   -   Shimmying in steering wheel >65? (https://ecomodder.com/forum/showthread.php/shimmying-steering-wheel-65-a-28939.html)

Baltothewolf 05-12-2014 10:39 PM

Shimmying in steering wheel >65?
 
So I love my new Corolla, have gotten all the little quirks out of it except the cruise control and the shimmy in the steering wheel when I go above 65MPH, and I can't find out what's causing the shimmy... I did a front end alignment/all 4 balanced today but it still just won't go away... It also seems to kinda drift from right to left on it's own once in a while. It's especially noticeable when i go over a hill, as I come down the small hill (and I'm talking really small, maybe a 100 feet from one end to the other of the hill) it does it. I'm at a loss and I really like this car, I just want to get this figured out before I return to work on Friday.

P.S It drives butter smooth from 0-60 no matter how hard I slam the gas, at 60 it starts but it's barely noticeable, then at 65 it just jumps in severity.

cbaber 05-12-2014 11:16 PM

Could be worn out bushings or ball joints. Take the tire off and use a pry bar to push and pull the suspension around. You can usually tell what is bad when there is too much play.

ecomodded 05-12-2014 11:21 PM

A wheel is probably out of balance

Also
Your alignment may be off but you could have worn front end parts, dried out rubber bushings and worn ball joints(they usually make a light knock noise when going over bumps) or other worn parts, tierod ends etc. etc.

I would not pay for a alignment until I inspected the front end for worn parts and rubber bushings , replace what it needs then take it for an alignment.

Baltothewolf 05-13-2014 12:02 AM

This morning I got the front left strut replaced (was clicking when i hit bumps, was completely worn) and an alignment/balance done AND tires rotated so that eliminated everything tire related... I can crank the wheel all the way to the left and right and punch it and it sounds 100% normal, no rubbing or clicking present, I know what worn joints sounds like, my 87 camry was so badly worn the mechanic i took it to refused to drive it.

P.S. My moms car does the same exact thing (Honda CRV) and my dad said the mechanic said a rubber thing on the axel is worn out, if someone named it here, I would know it by name, but I can't think of the name of it off the top of my head. I think it was Tierod but im not 100% sure.

Simonas 05-13-2014 02:19 AM

Could it be a warped brake disc? Perhaps the caliper pistons slide pack and forth somewhat when driving at slow speed but can't speed up to where they won't touch at one point in rotation when driving fast. Jack it up and see if the wheel gets turns "jerkily" if someone very lightly touches the brake pedal.

Baltothewolf 05-13-2014 02:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Simonas (Post 424171)
Could it be a warped brake disc? Perhaps the caliper pistons slide pack and forth somewhat when driving at slow speed but can't speed up to where they won't touch at one point in rotation when driving fast. Jack it up and see if the wheel gets turns "jerkily" if someone very lightly touches the brake pedal.

I think they were checked but I'll do that tomorrow morning. I just hope it's an easy/cheap fix. I don't want to have to pour money into this thing.

Simonas 05-13-2014 05:24 AM

Over here it costs $4 to get one brake rotor turned, but that is with the rotor removed. Also, I'm in Eastern Europe, so that means something like $20 in America. Probably better off just buying new.

Also check the wheel torque. Over torquing or not having the torque equal can cause the disk to warp. If your wheels were tightened down with an impact wrench, you can suspect that the disk is warped because of over-torquing. This is just what I've read--I've never had any personal experience.

nemo 05-13-2014 06:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baltothewolf (Post 424163)
I did a front end alignment/all 4 balanced today but it still just won't go away... It also seems to kinda drift from right to left on it's own once in a while. It's especially noticeable when i go over a hill, as I come down the small hill (and I'm talking really small, maybe a 100 feet from one end to the other of the hill) it does it.

When you took it in did you tell them about the problem or just ask for an alignment and balance. The alignment technician should have inspected for worn or damage parts. If you discussed the problem, take it back tell them it's not been corrected. Heck, take it back anyway.

If the tires were not rotated when balanced there could still be a tire problem or bent rim. Many time here you see people running into curbs and driving over parking stops. But the technician that balanced them shoud have noticed. If it does it at lower speeds over a hill or bump more likely something worn or loose.

user removed 05-13-2014 08:20 AM

Put apiece of tape on your steering wheel with the wheels pointed so the car goes absolutely straight. The tape needs to be exactly at the 12o'clock poistion on the wheel'
You can do this while driving the car so you know it is going straight down the road.

Once you have done this. Turn the steering wheel all the way left and right.

Your piece of tape shgould show you the the steering wheel goes the exact amount of turns left and right, say 1.75 left and 1.75 right. It has to be the same in both directions.

Many alignment shops do not do this and it is critical. If the rack is not centered going down the road you will get a shimmy, especially true with rack and pinion steering. Check it yourself to be sure it is right and that's free.

Now look at the tie rod assemblies. Count the exposed adjustment threads on both tie rods. They should be very close to exactly the same number of threads.

With the wheel exactly centered and the tie rod adjustment threads the same, you are ready to go to the alignment shop.

The really good alignment shops know all of this, and they will check the wheel center and tie rod length, but checking it yourself will give you an indication of the shops professionalism.

They should also check for bent wheels, out of round tires, and any other thing that might affect the alignment and they should road test the car after the alignment up to the maximum speed limits in your area. Few shops are that meticulous.

I used to check this stuff only when there was an issue like a shimmy. Typically it happens when something is bent. I have seen cars need crossmembers replaced to cure the problem.

My guess, without looking it over personally is that the bad strut was due to some kind of impact. Replacing the strut solved the obvious problems. Now you need to find the not so obvious problem.

If the first test shows the steering wheel to be centered exactly and the tie rods adjustment threads are the same, then you can safely assume the rack is properly positioned and nothing is bent-twisted. Everything else is minor.

regards
Mech

nemo 05-13-2014 08:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Old Mechanic (Post 424179)

Few shops are that meticulous.

So true.

user removed 05-13-2014 09:35 AM

I don't hold that against the shops. These procedures are only necessary when a car has had some kind of impact that caused the misalignment. On the old Z cars we worked on there was no provision for anything but a toe adjustment. If anything else was off, something was bent.

Modern unibody cars have measuring points on the unibody. I think the tolerance is 1 millimeter. Checking every car that comes into an alignment shop to make sure it is in tolerances would mean they would not stay in business.

To that situation I put a sign on the wall of the customers waiting area that asked customers to tell me everything they knew that could be related to their problem.
If you tell me "I aready knew that" after I have spent my time and YOUR money diagnosing a problem the charge will not be refunded.

In extreme cases of animosity created by repeated situations like this, I would ask them to take their business elsewhere. It was very rare but happened maybe 10 times in over a decade, especially when the jerk told me they were "testing" my capabilities. The shop is still operating 15 years after I sold it to the new owner who apprenticed under me.

The exchange of relevant information in hundreds of cases, allowed me to know what was wrong before I ever touched the car. More work completed at lower costs to the customer, done right the first time. I never made money doing it twice.

regards
Mech

nemo 05-13-2014 09:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Old Mechanic (Post 424182)
To that situation I put a sign on the wall of the customers waiting area that asked customers to tell me everything they knew that could be related to their problem.
If you tell me "I aready knew that" after I have spent my time and YOUR money diagnosing a problem the charge will not be refunded.

That is why I asked.

Quote:

Originally Posted by nemo (Post 424177)
When you took it in did you tell them about the problem or just ask for an alignment and balance.

Better to have too much information than lack a critical detail.

Baltothewolf 05-13-2014 01:36 PM

Thanks guys for the info. I can't do anything related to getting under the car and I am at a different tire shop my friend recommended and this tire shop is SO MUCH BETTER. they allowed me to stand there and watch them do the work, all 4 tires were out of balanced and there was another bent rim. They rotated tires and rebalanced them for free, moved the bent rim to the back just to test if the shimmy would go away, it did not. They are checking my entire front end out at this point. I love these people they are so thorough.

nemo 05-13-2014 03:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baltothewolf (Post 424216)
there was another bent rim.

Driven by a little old lady only on Sundays!:rolleyes:

user removed 05-13-2014 04:46 PM

I can not over emphasize the importance, expecially on rack and pinion steering systems, of making sure the rack is centered before tackling any front end alignment issues.

Centering the steering wheel and the rack is the basis of a proper alignment. If you make sure the wheel is centered and the rack is centered (previous post), then just drive the car and if it drives straight down the road then your alignment is very close (and that's free).

If it drives straight but the wheel is not centered and or the rack is not centered, then it is highly likely that there is something worn out or damaged (if not worn out) or both. Without a collision or worn out components, front end alignments will last a very long time.

I generally do not align the front end once it is "right" unless I see tire wear that would indicate an alignment issue (uneven wear across the tread).

I also generally avoid balancing tires unless there are symptoms. I once took my Riviera to Wall Mart to have the tires rebalanced before the 7k mile free interval. They told me there were not enough miles for it to be free.

I told them there was a vibration and I'll bet the $35 it's a balance issue. One wheel was 1/4 ounce out of balance and the rebalance cost me nothing.

When you replace tires, my experience is they will need a rebalance one time, then they should remain balanced for the life of the tires, assuming there is no major impact or pothole type damage.

Bottom line is in almost every case, without impact damage, your car will "tell" you when it's tires need to be rotated and or balanced.

Make this a sticky if you wish mods, it could save people a lot of coin over a lifetime.

regards
Mech

Baltothewolf 05-13-2014 05:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Old Mechanic (Post 424239)
I can not over emphasize the importance, expecially on rack and pinion steering systems, of making sure the rack is centered before tackling any front end alignment issues.

Centering the steering wheel and the rack is the basis of a proper alignment. If you make sure the wheel is centered and the rack is centered (previous post), then just drive the car and if it drives straight down the road then your alignment is very close (and that's free).

If it drives straight but the wheel is not centered and or the rack is not centered, then it is highly likely that there is something worn out or damaged (if not worn out) or both. Without a collision or worn out components, front end alignments will last a very long time.

I generally do not align the front end once it is "right" unless I see tire wear that would indicate an alignment issue (uneven wear across the tread).

I also generally avoid balancing tires unless there are symptoms. I once took my Riviera to Wall Mart to have the tires rebalanced before the 7k mile free interval. They told me there were not enough miles for it to be free.

I told them there was a vibration and I'll bet the $35 it's a balance issue. One wheel was 1/4 ounce out of balance and the rebalance cost me nothing.

When you replace tires, my experience is they will need a rebalance one time, then they should remain balanced for the life of the tires, assuming there is no major impact or pothole type damage.

Bottom line is in almost every case, without impact damage, your car will "tell" you when it's tires need to be rotated and or balanced.

Make this a sticky if you wish mods, it could save people a lot of coin over a lifetime.

regards
Mech

After we got off the phone and I got home, I did the tape test, it's 100% on the dot. I turn the the wheel to the right and it's 1.75 turns, to the left, 1.75. I then took the car around the block with easy throttle, checked when I got home, same results, I then bumped it up a little and was more snappy with turns, faster throttle and in general more abusive, same results. That means my alignment is ok right?

user removed 05-13-2014 06:01 PM

If you still have the bent lower control arm and the front end was aligned with the bent lower control arm, then I would bet the tie roads are not the same length.

Rack must be centered AND tie rods must be the same length.

regards
Mech

Baltothewolf 05-13-2014 06:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Old Mechanic (Post 424252)
If you still have the bent lower control arm and the front end was aligned with the bent lower control arm, then I would bet the tie roads are not the same length.

Rack must be centered AND tie rods must be the same length.

regards
Mech

When I take it in tomorrow to get the control arm replaced, and they do an alignment that will fix it right? Or should I say something to them about it?

nemo 05-13-2014 06:13 PM

Were the bent lower control arm, bent rim and bad strut originally at the same location?

Baltothewolf 05-13-2014 06:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nemo (Post 424255)
Were the bent lower control arm, bent rim and bad strut originally at the same location?

Elaborate more? If what your asking is if someone hit something then yes, I think the person that owned the car before me hit a pothole because both the rims on the front and both the control arms were shot. I'm just thinking that's what happened.

user removed 05-13-2014 06:46 PM

My best guess would be once the damaged components are replaced, and wheels balanced, it shoud drive and ride like a new car.

Hope it works out that way and then you can enjoy the Corolla for years to come.

regards
Mech

nemo 05-13-2014 06:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baltothewolf (Post 424262)
both the rims on the front and both the control arms were shot.

That is the information I was looking for. Thanks.

ecomodded 05-13-2014 10:12 PM

On a good note

Control arms are generally just made from stamped metal with 3 sides with 1 side open. They make the front end parts to give way and bend/break before frame is inline to absorb the impact from curbs , potholes , slight collision.

Also some control arms do not have replaceable bushings so when they wear after 150,00 miles or so you need to replace the whole part rather then a $10 bushing

user removed 05-13-2014 11:31 PM

One more way to visually determine if you have suspension damage. With the steering wheel centered and the front wheels pointed exactly in the direction to travel straight down the road, stand 15 to 20 feet away from each front wheel and look at how the tire-wheel sits in the wheel well. It should be perfectly centered in the wheel opening, front to rear.

Most collision damage and suspension damage will cause the tire-wheel to sit further to the rear of the wheel opening in the fender. The distance from the wheel to the front and rear of the wheel opening in the fender should be the same front and rear.

If there is a difference in that distance, especially from one side to the other, then you will see that in a front end alignment as an out of spec difference in castor angle. When one wheel is closer to the rear wheel than the other wheel the castor angle will be under the specifications. It will usually cause the vehicle to track towards the side with lower than spec castor. The wheelbase will be less onthe side with the wheel sitting too far back in the wheel opening.

There is a small difference in castor angles in every car from oen side to the other. This makes the car track straight down a road with a crown to promote runoff of rain. If the castor angle was identical then the car would drift off to the right on US roads and to the left on roads in England and other countries where cars drive on the opposite side of the road. So in England the castor angles would be different so the car would track straight where traffic travels in the left lane with steering on the right side of the car, just the opposite of US and oither roads where the steering is on the left side of the car and you drive on the right side of the road.

regards
Mech

Baltothewolf 05-14-2014 07:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Old Mechanic (Post 424306)
One more way to visually determine if you have suspension damage. With the steering wheel centered and the front wheels pointed exactly in the direction to travel straight down the road, stand 15 to 20 feet away from each front wheel and look at how the tire-wheel sits in the wheel well. It should be perfectly centered in the wheel opening, front to rear.

Most collision damage and suspension damage will cause the tire-wheel to sit further to the rear of the wheel opening in the fender. The distance from the wheel to the front and rear of the wheel opening in the fender should be the same front and rear.

If there is a difference in that distance, especially from one side to the other, then you will see that in a front end alignment as an out of spec difference in castor angle. When one wheel is closer to the rear wheel than the other wheel the castor angle will be under the specifications. It will usually cause the vehicle to track towards the side with lower than spec castor. The wheelbase will be less onthe side with the wheel sitting too far back in the wheel opening.

There is a small difference in castor angles in every car from oen side to the other. This makes the car track straight down a road with a crown to promote runoff of rain. If the castor angle was identical then the car would drift off to the right on US roads and to the left on roads in England and other countries where cars drive on the opposite side of the road. So in England the castor angles would be different so the car would track straight where traffic travels in the left lane with steering on the right side of the car, just the opposite of US and oither roads where the steering is on the left side of the car and you drive on the right side of the road.

regards
Mech

I did this and everything lines up. Replaced another bent rim today, and got the control arm fixed, still the same shimmy in the steering wheel. It's not as violent as it was before, but it's still there and is still unbearable. I'm at a complete loss and am now out of money. Fun stuff.

user removed 05-14-2014 07:47 PM

Take it back to where you bought it and tell them to fix it. Take the reciepts from the alignment shop.

regards
Mech

Baltothewolf 05-14-2014 07:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Old Mechanic (Post 424409)
Take it back to where you bought it and tell them to fix it. Take the reciepts from the alignment shop.

regards
Mech

Problem is, I bought it 'as is/no warranty'... Do I still have a basis to take it back and complain?

user removed 05-14-2014 07:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baltothewolf (Post 424411)
Problem is, I bought it 'as is/no warranty'... Do I still have a basis to take it back and complain?

You agreed to that without a test drive that would have revealed the shimmy?

Implied warranty - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This basically says you might have success, but if you signed that right away then you are probably not going to have success with the dealership. Your best chance would be if the sale was at a retail price.

regards
Mech

ecomodded 05-14-2014 08:18 PM

Check the rear rims for damage as well, and for out of round tires or bulges inspect them closely or have a friend look them over, jack each tire off the ground and spin with intent on catching a bump or lump or bulge.

I agree you should take it back to the repair shop, be friendly they missed it but ask them to recheck it as your not happy with the repair job -

I have pointed out a bad tire to a few people with a shimmy, although those types of a shimmy have happened even at low speed

user removed 05-14-2014 09:59 PM

Have someone follow you on the highway. Get up to 65 or whatever speed when the "shimmy" gets severe. The person following you should be able to see the tire-wheel that is hopping and causing the shimmy. It could be more than one tire-wheel. If it is on the front of the car move it to the rear. A shimmy is a rapid side to side oscillation of the steering wheel and usually not related to balance, but I'm thinking it may be a severe vibration that is related to and out of balance or out of round rotating component.

I don't enjoy getting information piecemeal, it makes trying to help anyone much more difficult. That being said, you are now in the position of having a car with an obvious defect and probably no recourse, even with California's consumer oriented laws concerning dealers and vehicles.

I've been there and it's a helpless and stressful situation. Try the latest suggestion. I have been in a similar position and if the "shimmy is balance or damaged tire related and it is severe enough, then it should be visible to someone who knows what to look for.
Nothing was mentioned about the bent rims after two shops "balanced" them. I just stopped when I saw a damaged tire or bent rim, and called the customer to offer them the chance to see the problem, since charging them for a balance was wasting their money.

Nothing has been offered as information that might be related to the damage being done to the exiting tires, but if that is the case and the tires are the same ones that were on the rims when the impact occured then you could have a damaged tire that has not been replaced.

Bottom line is have some one follow you and see if they can actually see the wheel hopping that is causing your shimmy. If they can do that then you KNOW that wheel is the source of your problem, at least the major source. Put the spare on in place of that wheel and try it again.

regards
Mech

user removed 05-14-2014 10:06 PM

It saddens me to see how far this has gone with my recommendations based on you having some recourse with the selling dealer. It was only on post 27 that this information was made obvious to me and every prior recommendation was based on you having that recourse.

I've been soo poor that I had to resort to the observer determining which wheel was hopping. I only hope that you know someone who is perceptive enough to observe which wheel-tire is the casue of your problem. Maybe your father?

regards
Mech

Baltothewolf 05-14-2014 10:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Old Mechanic (Post 424443)
It saddens me to see how far this has gone with my recommendations based on you having some recourse with the selling dealer. It was only on post 27 that this information was made obvious to me and every prior recommendation was based on you having that recourse.

I've been soo poor that I had to resort to the observer determining which wheel was hopping. I only hope that you know someone who is perceptive enough to observe which wheel-tire is the casue of your problem. Maybe your father?

regards
Mech

I could have sworn I posted that sooner, I sincerely apologize for not making 100% sure I stated it sooner. Also, the back left rim is still bent, but I have both the new rims with the good tires on the front so, shouldn't the shimmy not be there anymore with the bent rim being in the back? When my dad comes home tomorrow from work he told me we are going to take the tires/rims off his '04 Corolla and put them on mine to see if it goes away. I'm sorry Mechanic for not being 100% sure, I have never gone through this and I'm extremely stressed about this... I don't know what to do and it terrifies me because if I don't get it fixed I'm worried the car will rattle apart driving it to work everyday. And last but not least, I did test drive it, but it was all city so the fastest I got the car up to was 55mph and it's smooth at that speed. The nearest freeway was like 5-7 miles away of city driving, no highway...

user removed 05-14-2014 10:29 PM

Swapping out wheels that you know are good is PERFECT. Let us know the results.
Makes me feel much better now. :thumbup:

regards
Mech

Baltothewolf 05-14-2014 10:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Old Mechanic (Post 424448)
Swapping out wheels that you know are good is PERFECT. Let us know the results.
Makes me feel much better now. :thumbup:

regards
Mech

I just looked it up, the '04 corolla has 15" rims, that won't make a difference will it? The '00 has 14" but there is plenty of room under the wheel well anyway.

Also yes, I shall post the results immediately.

user removed 05-14-2014 10:59 PM

No difference.

regards
Mech

Baltothewolf 05-14-2014 11:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Old Mechanic (Post 424452)
No difference.

regards
Mech

Thanks. I'll let you know how it works tomorrow when we do the test.

user removed 05-14-2014 11:05 PM

After all you have been through, I sure hope it solves your problem.

regards
Mech

Baltothewolf 05-15-2014 01:27 PM

Just my luck, no car out of the 8 other cars we have here at my house, have the proper lug pattern (4). Every single one is a 5, including my dads Corolla.

Baltothewolf 05-15-2014 03:28 PM

So I just replaced the last bent rim and it rides SO MUCH SMOOTHER. But there is still a vibration on the right side of the car and the shimmy is still there... I recorded the shimmy on my phone I'll upload it later. It's just weird because sometimes the shimmy goes away and it's butter smooth, but it only lasts a few seconds then it comes back full force again. At least the car is comfortable to drive now, I don't have any worries about driving it to work.

This doesn't really serve it justice, but you can see it regardless. I was driving 70mph on the freeway so, it's kinda shake, kinda. The quick jolts is me grabbing the wheel and correcting my heading to keep me strait (it's kinda windy so the wind was blowing me to the side).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U3m-...ature=youtu.be

Baltothewolf 05-15-2014 04:28 PM

So just for a recap, this is what I have done so far to try and cure the problem.

Front end alignment + fix the left control arm ($195).
Balanced every tire and had the (worst) bent rims relocated to the rear.
Replaced one rim and had all 4 tires made sure they were balanced right ($55).
Replaced right control arm and replaced another bent rim + another alignment ($246).
Replaced the last bent rim and rechecked to make sure all rims are balanced ($55).

I have had my dad and 3 mechanic shops look at the car and nobody can find out what the problem is. I'm at a complete loss.


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 12:41 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.5.2
All content copyright EcoModder.com