Short Commute vehicle recommendations
 

Wife would like a more economical vehicle but still seats a family of 4 for weekend trips & groceries. This may be silly, maybe even ridiculous to some but the her commute to work is just 2.5mi mostly county-highway. It's 1/2mi downhill, stop, continue 1/4mi downhill, uphill 1mi, level 1/4mi, stop, level 1/2mi. after work, it's about 1mi around small town for a couple stops then back home reverse route to work. There's no way walking, biking or the Geo will do. Needs to have good snow/ice ability, and large enough (mass) to be safe in an environ dominated by large SUV's, 4x4's, farmers trucks & semi's. What would you suggest, gas, diesel, hybrid, multi-fuel, preferably used, maybe trade Geo+Mounty? Her Mounty gets around 15mpg and we'd like a little better. Heck, depressing but at times I think we could trade it for an old 'burban and still get same economy, more room.

Sounds like she knows what she wants and won't care what my opinion of it is.

FWIW, I'll put out there that if this thing is really only for such a short hop, you will benefit from the smallest mass engine you can get, perhaps cast iron block would be best, so that it warms up quicker.

Well, if it's REALLY for such a short hop, it should be electric. Yes I totally love my electric bicycle for around town hops; I haven't bought much gasoline all spring, summer, and fall this year and you know what? I really don't miss going to the gas station and giving them my money.

What is wrong with the Toyota/Geo? it's a 4 door sedan, right? seems like the ideal family vehicle, at least it was for my parents, holds 5 adults and has a large trunk as well as being a very safe car that does good in the snow if you have snow tires on it.

Personally I would go for electric as well, 2.5 mile trips eat cars up, you can wear out an exhaust system per year, battery too, brakes, oil changes, starters, everything wears out quickly because of the constant starting and stopping, so a home built electric car would have more then enough range and replacing the battery pack every 5 years would cost less then up keep of a gasoline car, or so says my mother, who is a book keeper and lives 2.5 miles from work and tends to walk there if the weather is nice.

I live 3.5 miles from work and love my electric car for getting there, it means that my Honda Civic is often on loan to friends who need a car or who's car otherwise gets poor gas mileage.

First, how long are the weekend trips? If not over 40-50 miles, a plug in electric is ideal for this situation. For snow and ice conditions, your need for space, and size for safety, I'd suggest a awd Chevy Astro Van conversion. There would also be enough room for a small, externally vented generator to extend the range on trips. With "long range" not paramount, affordable lead acid batteries could be used, and mounting them below the floor would provide excellent handling. If building one up from parts cars, like starting with a van with a blown engine, a standard 4x4 truck transfer-case would allow selective 2wd-4wd. Even better could be two motors, one main for rear drive, and a second on the front axle for low traction situations.

Yes, she does like the Mounty but we're thinking ahead and educating ourselves on the possible alternatives. We really like the Geo but it's overmatched by the size of most rigs it may get bumped by around here. I like the electric idea especially if that's what electric cars are designed for, I don't know much about them though. I'll have to really bone up on things before a diy electric would be considered.

Learn how to drive and getting smacked on the road won't seem such a certainty.

It's not me I'm worried about. Wife's driving record is spotless for over 25 years and mine never had an accident for 30. We drive defensively! We chose the Mounty 10yrs ago for it's engine, weight, capacity and airbags.

If we could thin our vehicle herd by replacing 2or3 for 1, would be nice. I wonder how those displacement-on-demand cars would do for short trips.

I don't think DoD kicks in until everything is all warmed up and it's cruising down the highway.

Subaru

You don't need to build your own electric car, there are plenty out there for sale, not all of them are in running order but you get more for your money by buying used, a good example of this is one that I was about an hour to late to buy that sold for $1,500, the motor in it alone cost $3,000! (top of the line, very powerful electric motor) and it had the full set of gauges, wiring, motor adapter, all these parts that would cost time and money, it just needed a speed controller and batteries.

But back to gasoline powered cars, when you are thinking about safety, remember that most crashes are single car accidents and because of that a big part of crash testing is smashing the car in to stationary solid objects and while a large vehicle might be better for crashing in to other vehicles, the statistics seem to show that large vehicles are also more likely to crash because they are harder to control, less nimble and tend to be more top heavy.

I's like to suggest a trip to your local Nissan dealer to put a deposit on a new Leaf. Keep driving your faithful old vehicle until your Leaf shows up and then put it on Craig's list or Ebay.

Accidents occasionally happen, but I refuse to live my life in the fear of a Ford Excursion or Chevy/GMC Suburban running over me. In the final analysis, you have to weigh your concerns and spend your money appropriately.

{I pass a truck salvage yard on the way to work and I wouldn't have an SUV. IMHO, they are not as safe as people think they are. Most are there with the roof smashed in, not front or rear damage from from a typical collision.}

Short trips = most of your drive is spent warming up the engine.

Commit to getting the best possible engine block heater (EBH), professionally installed.
You can change to smaller and lighter vehicles and ones with a standard tranny but you can really help yourself by preheating the engine electrically. The cost of the electricity will be far less than the cost of the gas that now does the job.

I say pro installed because I believe the most effective EBH is the kind that installs in the block's freeze plug opening. Unless you're experienced and intrepid, they can be a pain to get at. And you want it done right because you don't want a coolant leak.

Thanks for the replies all. Ideas so far: used electric, Subaru, Nissan and freeze plug-block heater.

My first suggestion would actually be VW Jetta or current generation BMW diesel. They're tough, give consistent mileage, and are all large enough.

If you have an aversion to diesel, or it's prohibitively expensive where you live, then I'd have to suggest Nissan with a small displacement engine or a used electric if you're trips are short enough and you don't mind tinkering.

You average home converted electric has a range of about 40 to 50 miles, round trip, so if you most of your wife's destinations are with 20 miles of home then the electric is a great solution. If you have to go farther regularly, then the Nissan would be be the better choice over the long haul.

Any four seat front wheel drive car ever, put good winter tires on it and there go. That said I did pick up a 4wd subaru for this winter mostly because I will be out of town a lot and will not be able to keep up with the shoveling.

For heating I would consider not only a freeze plug type heater but an oil pad heater as well.

If you have the money, you might also look at getting a new or used Prius and a plug in hybrid kit for it, that way you can cut back to a single vehicle for all of your needs, the short trips to work and back home would use no gasoline but longer trips with the kids would have the gas engine kick in.

If this great driving record is truly the case I don't see how considering a Geo would affect this at all. Staying accident free is your decision and ability, not the cars.
I find it is just as easy to stay away from "them" in my Geo as in my Honda.

My vote is for the block heater with that short of commute.

I just bought a 2011 Hyundai Sonata Hybrid, and it easily does 2.5 miles in EV mode. A hill might kick the engine on, but it's got plenty of room (almost as much as my Avalon, it loses only in rear seat room by a hair, and the trunk is a tudge smaller (battery pack has to go somewhere)). But I am very happy with the Sonata Hybrid. Drove my Avalon 2 hours to trade it in (got almost nothing, had 207k miles on it), which took 4 gallons of gas (lots of hills, longish trip). The drive home that afternoon in the Sonata burned a skosh under 2 gallons, same route (but in reverse), the gas gauge hardly moved. I think it's a good family car, hell, my wife has been leaving her 350Z at home this week and been driving MY car to work. I can't wait till we get the tags and I can register it on base where I work! Then it's MINE, all MINE!
(While it's not in my EcoModder garage database yet, the computer said that we got 40.8mpg driving home, in the hills, at an avg of 60mph, counting city traffic and a 10 minute stint at 70mph for testing). I heartily recommend it as a new family car.

Seriously, 2.5 miles is a very short distance. If it hasn't been suggested already, how about on-foot? Also reduces wear-and-tear, and other expenses on whatever car you end up choosing.

I used to walk that distance each way for work -- rain, shine, snow, forest fires, etc. Takes less than an hour each way if I walk, much less when I run. If I need to run errands, I drive that day. On some good weather days my wife meets me half-way, baby stroller in-tow.

Get a NEV Neighborhood Electric Vehicle
 

Hello,

We own a Ford Think, seats 4, inexpensive, electric, well built but only legal on roads posted 35mph and less, which covers most of my wife and kids trips to school, store, library, sports etc. We are lucky to live in a more dense downtown environment that is built around square city blocks with speeds less than 30mph. Many of the residents own GEMs, Think Neighbors and modified golf carts. We are a beach community and like many local beach communities the NEV concept is valid, fun, practical, safe and cheap. Best of all they take little energy (solar), need little maintenance and store easily with small footprint. We love ours and take it everywhere downtown. Cheap to register and insure too!

Steve

Short Trip Alternatives
 

A huge number of vehicles will beat your present 6+ gallons/100miles and many will handle your 4 passengers, carry weekend luggage and be safe by modern definitions. Compact SUVs, compact sedans, Hybrids, etc. will all fill the bill.
Most recently built cars also have front and side airbags, stability and traction control, and good moderate snow handling capability on all weather or dedicated snow tires.
Your lowest cost alternative is just to drive the Prizm on all your short trips reserving the old Mountaineer for family trips with a full load. This would cut your commute fuel use to closer to 3 gallons/hundred miles using your present cars.

Yes! 2.5 miles, whether it's hilly or not, is no problem on a bike either. You'd only take half an hour to get to work and after a week or two of biking it you would not feel tired after doing it. Maybe you drive the Prizm with snow tires in the winter. Or buy basically any newer small car for that if you're paranoid about safety. But biking is free and really rewarding. It's also a great way to get regular exercise. Buy a decent hybrid or older road bike for a hundred bucks and ride the crap out of it.

Yes, road bikes work in the winter. The skinny tires cut through snow really nicely. You just have to plan your braking zones and such. If you have decent balance and are going at a decent pace (over 10mph) it will not be a problem. I biked to school daily for all of high school in Minnesota, living on a dirt road. It was about a three mile ride each way and was no problem in almost any weather (MTB in winter). All I can say is make sure you're dressed properly so you're not too cold or too hot, and watch for ice ruts if you're riding on gravel. Then again if you're hitting gravel, get a mountain bike for the winter.

Otherwise there shouldn't be ruts on the shoulder of a paved road. If there are no ruts, go with a roadie.

Given that you are in Washington, I can appreciate your desire for 4wd; however, and please don't take offense at this, I am concerned that you have the same misconceptions as my parents: "larger equals safer." What you trade for your ability to bulldoze other vehicles is the nimbleness and agility to avoid accidents altogether.

Personally, it sounds to me like you could do very well with just about any of the lighter 4wd/awd cars and CUVs on the market right now. Used, you'd probably need to stick to Subaru or something similar.

For the needs and specifications you've given, a plug-in hybrid seems like it would be the ticket - especially a Chevy Volt (if you like Chevys and you've got over $40k to spend) or the upcoming 2012 Prius PHEV. Your wife could stay in electric mode for the commute, but have the engine there for longer trips or unexpected travel. And both these cars can handle 5 people.

The suggestions of an EV are also pretty good too. Imagine...NEVER going back to the gas station with the car you make that commute with! Wow....

I suggest getting a basic ford fiesta. It's larger than other commuter cars in the segment with more power and the fuel economy is quite good as well. You can get into a well equiped one for around 14k. If you decide to go this route try looking a the new scion IQ as well. Both of these are non hybrids with no batteries to replace or maintain. They have a smaller carbon foot print and are capable of some significant mpgs.

2012 Ford Fiesta Sedan & Hatchback | Up to 40 MPG & SYNC. It's a pretty big deal | Ford.com

Scion iQ

I agree with HBThink. If she doesn't have to pass through anything faster than a 35 zone a NEV is the way to go. There are a few out there (like the ZENN) that look like "real" cars and are currently available. A DIY conversion may be cheaper if she is willing to put up with the project and drive a "home made" car.

There are also all electric cars out there like the WeeGo Whip Life that are all electric, go highway speeds and have 5 star crash test ratings.
Really there are a lot of vehicles out there with good safety ratings and a lot of them are small cars and if you look at statistics of what vehicles kill the most number of people per year it tends to be large vehicles and SUV's.

The OP is in Eastern WA in a place where the temperatures get much colder than the Seattle area and they see a lot more snow. Also there is lots of farming equipment/semis/pickup trucks around so I can see their reasoning behind wanting something with mass.
I would HIGHLY reccomend against getting a diesel, even a diesel plugged in will have a hard time getting to operating temperature when its 10-20* and you open yourself up for lots of problems.
I would look around at subarus as they are good cars and get decent mileage and do well in the snow.

I grew up in a farming community, and I've seen what happens when cars tangle with farming equipment. The 2,000 lb difference between a car and SUV/truck makes very little difference if you get in an accident with a 5-10 ton piece of farming equipment. I would still take maneuverability and nimbleness over bulk.

With that short commute, definitely get an EV. Keep one of your fossil burners for weekend trips.

With yours and your wife's driving records you need not worry about getting into an accident.

The selection of electric cars are growing. Nissan Leaf is mentioned earlier. I don't know if all of the triplets - Mitsubishi iMiEV, Citroen C-Zero, Peugeot iOn - are available in the US, but they are worth searching for. I've had the pleasure of driving the iMiEV and it fills your requirements.

Maintenance for an EV is almost non existent; there are no oil or filters to be replaced, no exhaust pipe or catalytic converter. The brakes needs some attention as they are rarely used. Instead of transferring the moving energy into heat in the brake disks, regenerative braking puts the energy back into the battery, an advantage for the downhill parts of your commute. In the winter you will like the electric heater, it works almost instantly.

Th!nk NEV mentioned earlier share only the name with the two seater, highway capable Th!nk City which is assembled in Elkhart, IN. The City could be an alternative if you don't need 4 seats for the daily commute. The lithium battery for the City is made in the US.

I've been driving a 2000 model Th!nk City since 2003, still with the original nicad battery.

I'd like to see the folks suggesting you walk carry two kids down a snowy country road through a slushy ditch in freezing weather for 30 minutes. It is _a lot_ easier to drive on ice than walk on it, even in a 2x4 F150 with bald tires, you don't fall down nearly as often. Unfortunately in the modern US a car is almost a necessity.
My commute is about 2.5 miles one way including work and daycare and I drive a minivan because it's big, comfortable and easy to get the kids in and out of. For 25 miles a week it is less than 2 gallons of gas. If I didn't leave town it'd be no big deal. I live in Northern MN and there is snow on my street November to April, but I do not have 4 wheel drive. However, it's flat here and my driveway is small and quickly shoveled. I've had 4x4 before, and only needed to engage it once every other year or so, the rest of the time it was only used because of laziness in driving, parking or shoveling.
The hybrid concept seems like it'd work well for you, a Prius can have a switch added to go 2 miles all electric. With the up and down hill I wonder if such a switch could be used to minimize the usage of the engine. There's some small 4x4 SUV hybrids, e.g. Highlander and Escape. They may be a good bet.
If you're looking to optimize for cash and go 4x4 I'd look at a turn of the century rav4 or pilot. There are some funky old Corolla and Civic 4x4 wagons from the late 80's early 90's that are functional, economical and retro-cool.
A twelve year old Suburban will cost less than a 4 year old Prius. The difference would take a few years of buying gas for 25 miles a week to make up.
Manual transmissions for coasting on those hills would be a big plus if you are conventional and not hybrid. Mazda makes a manual minivan that's better than most on gas, but no 4x4
Buy the car in the winter so you know how it is in snow. Toyota Matrix in FWD is an awful car in snow, which I would not have guessed. The 4wd version may be a good choice for you however. I wouldn't have known the FWD Matrix is so bad had I not tried it.

2009 Jeep Patriot
 

I have a 2009 Jeep Patriot, FWD, with no power frills (locks, mirrors, etc) although I did have the dealer add cruise control. I still get 31 MPG hwy, (with driver only in the car, andkeeping limited cargo weight) after 2 years and 35,000 miles. Four-door, nice legroom in back, rear seats fold down to create long cargo space. There are 4WD versions of course. Has ESP system for road control on slippery surfaces, which kicks in nicely here in Wisconsin. Very low & stable wheel base for a Jeep, not truly an SUV, more like a small wagon. Also has nice little idiot lights like a low fuel alarm, low tire pressure. Has dual front and side curtain air bags.

Recommend buying used over new, so you don't lose so much value; mine listed at $19,500 new in Aug. '09, (got a $4500 rebate at the time), KBB value now is still $11,000 (very good condition) and I've just now gone right-side-up on the payments/value. Dealer who sold me the car... is now trying to sell me a pickup... and is confused that I'm still happy with the Jeep.

Last post in by original poster in this thred was 10/3.
Ever since then, we've been talking to ourselves.

haha, good point.:confused:

Maybe he's lurking? :p

Comeback, I'm not dead yet...I'll bite your knee caps off:D.

Been really busy, not to mention computer issues.

Thanks guys. You've given me some really good ideas and the idea of a more efficient family rig is slowly sinking into the wife's mind.

My wife has rarely asked for much when it comes to vehicles. Up until she decided, in late 2003 that she wanted a new full size pickup truck. I campaigned for a month for a compact pickup. Then I accepted defeat when she maintained she wanted a full size truck. :o On 12/31/03, she got her new 2004 Silverado extended cab, 2wd gas hog. 38 thousand miles later, we still use it sparingly. She's happy as a clam with it. And you know what they say, "If momma ain't happy, ain't nobody happy!" :D


Be sure to let us know what happens. It all boils down to making her happy.

Shoulda sold it when I had the chance. Timing chain system failed today. Looks like I might be looking into downsizing the fleet for a more efficient system.

Diesel is a terrible idea. Something with an aluminum block will come up to temperature faster. I do agree with the many others that this is a perfect purpose for an electric.