Should you use E15?
 

I use hE15 in my 2011 Insight.
If Fox says it's is bad I feel reassured in knowing that is is in fact good.

But Fox is not the only one reporting this:
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/n...-cars/1735793/

The ethanol industry does not agree as could be expected:
http://ethanolproducer.com/articles/...-irresponsible

Mix in some criticism on the production of ethanol: http://bigstory.ap.org/article/secre...n-power-push-1

So let's take it straight from the horses mouth:
http://newsroom.aaa.com/tag/aaa-e15/

Wait, is that dated November 15th? That's so 2013...
And so are the other items, the Fox item even going back to 2012.
Old news.

If your car is is flex-fuel compatable, E15 or even E100 is safe. If it is not, the 10% that is now mandated by the federal government, is damaging it. This stuff is destroying lawnmowers, generators, boats and cars that sit for days at a time.

All I can say is that this hE15 blend they sell over here has 0.6% water content to protect against ethanol erosion.

Ethanol in its purest form is very volatile, but just 4% (volume) of water binds it enough to make it behave more like a fluid. As it is quite hard to extract the last bit of water out, they just leave it; reducing the cost of production as a bonus.
While a high percentage of water is detrimental, as you can imagine, matching the ethanol content with 1/25 of water does take the sharp edge off.

My car was approved for E10 (even without water content). I think it'll be fine.

This scare news is old, I'd like to see proof rather than opinions or I won't believe it.
It would have been banned long since if it were that bad.

Wow Tex, you really are a noob.

Faux Noise. :rolleyes:

E15- makes no difference to me, unless the price break isn't proportional to E10/E85. I'll keep running E10 or E15 in brutal winter temps, E85 in the heat of summer, and proportional blends inbetween. :thumbup:

BTW- I mistakenly filled the snowblower with E85 and you know what? The darn thing started just fine in the cold! I wasn't expecting that. The only thing I noticed was that I had to be slower opening the choke, and I couldn't open it that last notch. Otherwise it ran perfect.

this is page 296 from your owner's manual.
Your car IS designed to run E10. Older cars and small engines are not.


Help assure your vehicle’s future
reliability and performance by paying
extra attention to how you drive
during the first 600 miles (1,000 km).
During this period:
Avoid full-throttle starts and rapid
acceleration.
You should also follow these
recommendations with an
overhauled or exchanged engine, or
when the brakes are replaced.
Your vehicle is designed to operate
on unleaded gasoline with a pump
octane number of 87 or higher. Use
of a lower octane gasoline can cause
a persistent, heavy metallic rapping
noise that can lead to engine damage.
Do not change the oil until the
scheduled maintenance time.
Avoid hard braking for the first
200 miles (300 km).
In addition, in order to maintain good
performance, fuel economy, and
emissions control, we strongly
recommend, in areas where it is
available, the use of gasoline that
does NOT contain manganese-based
fuel additives such as MMT.
We recommend using quality
gasolines containing detergent
additives that help prevent fuel
system and engine deposits.
Use of gasoline with these additives
may adversely affect performance,
and cause the malfunction indicator
lamp on your instrument panel to
come on. If this happens, contact
your authorized dealer for service.
Some gasoline today is blended with
oxygenates such as ethanol or
MTBE. Your vehicle is designed to
operate on oxygenated gasoline
containing up to 10% ethanol by
volume and up to 15%MTBE by
volume. Do not use gasoline
containing methanol
If you notice any undesirable
operating symptoms, try another
service station or switch to another
brand of gasoline.
For further important fuel-related
information for your vehicle, or
information on gasoline that does not
contain MMT, visit Owner Link at
. In Canada, visit
for additional
information on gasoline.
owners.honda.com
Honda.ca Official Website of Honda Canada Inc.
Break-in Period Fuel Recommendation

I think it would have to sit for more than days to wreck things. Lemme put it this way: I've dumped E85 into almost everything I own, small engines included. I haven't found wreckage that I can attribute to ethanol, and I've been playing with this stuff since the '80s.

Frank,
I didn't say they won't run on it, I said they will incure damage if E-XX is left in the tank. if you run the tank of your snowblower empty after each use, there will probably be no damage.
Take you insults somewhere else. im sure there is a 16 year old girl making her first post in intoductions that you can outwit.

Yes, just as I stated. I have read the manual more than once.
Please do not copy whole pages in your post, that is copyright infringement and bad net etiquette.

No, I don't run the blower dry each time.

As noted, been running this stuff in various concentrations for decades. Lessee, what are all the bad things that happened...

I had to replace a clear plastic line on an old McCollough to get it going... I don't have the history of the thing though, maybe it was run on E0 it's whole life and the line went bad just from age? Dunno.

I filled the V-Max with straight E-85 once. It didn't like it; had to ride the rest of the way with the choke slightly closed. I generally don't run higher than E10 in carb'd stuff, but I have run a strong blend through a carb'd '76 Chevy pickup and it ran just fine. I wouldn't be surprised, though, if I have to replace hardened rubber fuel lines at some point. I will experiment with E15 in the carb'd stuff to see how it goes.

I pushed the envelope a little too much in my early days of using straight E85... had a tank full of it when it got brutally cold- like today (-26F) :mad: - and that car would not start. Yeah, don't use it in the cold.

But this is about WRECKING stuff. I've never replaced a fuel filter or an injector or anything except that McCullough line and our State has had "gasohol" since the late '70s.

I think if you go beyond E10 in older carbed vehicles, you will probably need to change the jets in the carb. If E15 becomes the norm here (only E10 for the last 8 years?), I'll try it in the Fiesta, and maybe my Ranger, but the bike will not see that concentration.

Frank has it pegged as far as running engines on alcohol. I think the Model T was originally designed to run on alcohol. I just hate it when you don't save money commensurate with the lower energy content, but then I have not really had the option of E0 in along time, and driving the close to 75 miles it takes to get E0 then paying 40cents more a gallon, is something I find hard to justify.

regards
Mech

When we get it I'll try it in Mowmar, the mower. I'm thinking that extra 5% isn't going to make a lick of difference as far as running and as far as WRECKING everything. But perhaps opening the main jet on the ol' Briggs a skosh will be called for. We shall see.

In the meantime I'll be trying to figure out who the 16 year old girls among us are. :p

I add Sta-Bil when filling my gas cans. It seems to do its job well. I've had gas in one can for about six months with no issues. That gas goes into the lawnmower (with some bad gas the old homeowner's left...), the pressure washer and the weed wacker (with 2 stroke oil). They all start normally and run fine. All of the gas around here is E10.

Sta-Bil works well. And my freinds with boats swear by Sea-Foam, IIRC.

The energy difference between E10 & E15 is a about 2%, if that's enough to make a carb go lean it must lean already.

My civic HX does not like the E85. On two different trips to Nebraska I had issues with it. State of Nebraska subsidizes the ethanol so it's quite a bit cheaper than anything else at the pump. Go figure since they grow so much corn there. First time I put it in on purpose (cause it's cheaper). Second time I didn't pay attention to which pump handle I used and put the higher percentage ethanol in. Both times (a year apart from each other) the mileage dropped from 40 to about 35 and check engine light came on. Switched back to "regular unleaded" and mileage went back to normal. Purged by burning through a couple of tanks of "regular unleaded" and engine light went off. I run the 10% stuff all the time at home with no problems. My Ranger doesn't mind the E85 at all. Eats it right up with no ill effects.

As for small engines, I generally run them dry if they're going to be left in storage for any length of time (ethanol or no). They just have a better track record for starting up in the spring that way. Don't know about cold start 'cause it just don't get that cold where I live.

PS, only us old farts can appreciate the irony of "regular unleaded"

Welcome Steve,

The only tax advantages E gets now is in some states the road tax is a little lower.

I agree for best small engine starting run them empty, just seems wastefull during summer, end of season heck yes run them dry.


Most cars FI systems when they see they are adding 20% more fuel that what is programed they throw a CEL cause it thinks something wrong. With only a 12% drop going from regular to E85 is great. The 2 FFV cars I've owned both lost 18%. With E85 almost $1.00 cheaper in my area it's a OK bargin for me.

I've been playing with blending off and on for a few years. My Cobalt seems to like E40, 35.3 current 3 tank with average temps near 0f.

I rotate refills with half tank 85 and then next fill up e10. Seems the insight works best up to an e40 mix before you get an dtc or ruin your mpg. Once you exceed e20 your mpg starts to pick up in warmer room temp like weather. You also get better throttle response.

Yeah, Ive seen the photos of supposed ruined or damaged fuel systems from ethanol, but those are from older vehicles.

When I get it running again I think I'm going to fill up the Farmall with E85, just for gits and shiggles. See how she do.

Then, because the Farmall's power could most charitably be described as merely modest and at least on straight gas I will be able to keep the horsepower in the middle teens, I will siphon out whatever's left into Josie the Toyota. See how she do. I bet she'll do just fine.

I won't run it into the other vehicles. They're EFI and not tuned for flex fuel, so I don't reckon they'll like it much, maybe throw a code. I'd rather not have to screw around with that if I don't have to. But the older rides, being unsophisticated and therefore a lot more flexible in certain aspects, I bet they'll run like champs.

You will never convince me - and any of you had a hell of a lot more chance at convincing me than Fox News ever did - that E-xx will damage my engine, either by running it as fuel or by leaving it sit in the lines for a week or two. As for an entire season, well, anything bad that happens to an owner who leaves fuel sitting in his lines for months on end, deserves what happens to him. That's poor practice. Run some Sta-Bil in there and fear not.

That's exactly backwards of what I would expect; EFI can compensate for the mixture requirement discrepency automatically while carbs need re-adjustment if not re-jetting. Also ethanol loves high compression and I'd wager that Farmall is very, very low.

I've run E10 in a 1971 Honda CB350 without changing any carb settings. When it comes to storage, I just drain the fuel out and put it in my car or truck, then add new fuel. My 89 Suzuki GS500 E has run E10 only, without carb problems (after cleaning-no parts) or any jet changes. It runs fine and started up fine after sitting for 2 months. It's about time to drain the fuel in that bike.

In cars with modern vapor sealed fuel systems, E10 can go much longer without problems. My Altima Coupe sat for 11 months when it was totalled before it ran again. No problems with the original battery which still had a small charge, or with the almost year old gas. Modern vapor recovery systems do not allow significant amounts of moisture to be exposed to the fuel.

regards
Mech

I've seen e10 warnings on gas pumps here in NJ since the about 2003, when some stations started blending it in to avoid using MTBE.
Most cars built from even back into the 1990's are fine with E10 and will be fine with E15.
Small engines don't have trouble running even E85, What they have problems with is storing the gas. E10 will go off in just a few days in a gas can, never mind a lawn mower carb bowl.
Storage is the only issue I have ever had with E10 and I expect zero issues with E15.

Now I can't speak for E85, because there is none in this area. Buying a Flex-fuel vehicle in this state is a joke, cause its not going to see more than E15 around here.

I'm going to disagree with our small carb'd engine's being OK running E85, if you can get it started it will be running lean. With 28% less energy vs regualar gas you need to change the jets to feed more fuel per air flow to keep the engine happy.

With fuel injection making it down to small engines most won't take E85 just like most cars won't without a CEL. But all my cars take 50% without any problem. I'd run E15 in all my mowers never giving it a second though, isn't worth blending for a few gallons they use a week.

PS, love the VFR's, had a 83 v45 interceptor for a while, love to find a yellow 2000

I've sourced e85 to run in a couple of my fords and I never had them throw cel. Then again both those fords were supercharged and had both dynamic fuel pressure regulators and large injectors. But the biggest thing I guess is to have a wideband o2 sensor so the ecu has a chance to tune to stoichiometric range on e85 (roughly 10:1 IIRC).

As for the small engines, it wouldn't take much adjustment of the fuel mixture screw to sort out the idle mix and then lift the needle with either a couple of little washers under the clip or moving the clip down.

Now on the 2000 VFR, its Yellow was so ugly to me, I waited until 2001 to get a red one. My second VFR is a 99. With the power commander on them makes returning for e85 a few clicks of a tuning map.

I've run it in the 'Dwarf - VW rated it for E10 , but seeing it can cope with CNG, it should cope with a bit more ethanol as well. Both run dry and hot anyway.

Eh15 doesn't nearly run as well though.
It feels like it's always hesitating - which is saying something when the base reference is a mere 68 HP and no torque running on CNG (slow throttle response).
Doesn't run as smooth @ idle either.

No two cars are the same. I have no problem with hE15 whatsoever. I'm back on regular E95 for a tank now and I cannot see or feel any difference in performance and general handling for better or for worse. Not even for consumption.
I could not tell what's in the tank from the handling.

My wallet knows, though. Banning special offers there is a 6 cents per liter price difference.

Hi I will put in my 2 cents. I have made ethanol to run in engines and no I don't work for anything related to the ethanol industry. 99% of problems with ethanol and engines not running well on E85 is the engine being made to run gas not ethanol. The worst "damage" I have seen from running ethanol was on an old Briggs and stratton engine. There was rust in the tank after letting it sit for 6 months with ethanol that had 20% water in it.

Ethanol has oxygen molecules in it so it needs a higher fuel to air ratio then gasoline to compensate for the oxygen. Like Frank Lee's snow blower the Briggs and stratton engine ran great after choking the engine = less air into engine. Also the cold weather problem with ethanol is because its less volatile then gas, so to compensate flex fuels squirt more fuel into the engine when starting. The other major problem people see even on flex fuel vehicles is running high % of ethanol on high mileage vehicles that have only run on gas and this is do to the solvent properties of ethanol. Your fuel system gets cleaned of gasoline residues and this causes clogged fuel filters.

Yes ethanol does have some compatibility issues with some materials like natural rubber and some types of plastic.

An engine built for ethanol will see the same if not better fuel economy then gas, only problem is high compression = no more gasoline. Saab made the best flex fuel vehicle I have ever seen it increase turbo boost for more power when it senses higher % of ethanol in the tank.

Well, any untreated fuel gasoline or ethanol will attract water and cause rust in fuel tank. I've seen tanks rust out long before there was e10. That's why all my motorcycles gas tanks get protective coating.
What method and materials did you use to produce your ethanol?


First off, Gasoline a not a single molecule, but a blend of compounds. Nearly all of them have some oxygen in their makeups.
Ethanol has 5 HC bonds to oxidize and one Hydroxide per molecule.
Octane (one of the measured compounds of Gasoline) has 18 HC bonds to oxidize and no hydroxides.
Less HC bonds means more Fuel needed for a given volume of atmosphere.

That again comes back to the fact that gasoline is not a single compound, but that it is a mix of many molecules. Some that vaporize at very low temps, that lets us have enough vapor to start an engine at cold temperatures, but this also leaves high vapor temperature compounds behind to form varnishes. Then along comes the ethanol that acts as a solvent, breaking down these varnishes, dissolving them into the liquid again. Unfortunately some of the really bad crud gets trapped in the filters and they need replacing.

Gasoline also has issues with natural rubber and plastics, that's why I use neoprene and silicone materials wherever possible and I don't even have access to E85.

Oh, yeah An engine built to run on Ethanol, will run best on compression up near the diesel engine range.
I remember experimenting with a variable compression head in college as a possible design solution for flex fuel.

Well, its back warm last week in VA and I tried it again. I had done 4.x gallons of e85 to 6.x gallons of regular gas. It did well like 93 octane and gained 10 mpg. Only down side was in the cold weather below freezing I got a trim error.

Well I tried 2.x gallons e85 to 8.x gallons of gas. I actually lost 5 mpg. :eek:

Tank 2 with 4.x e85 and 6.x gas is not counted as I made 4 trips to the hardware store for 50 bags of mulch and a trip to the dump. Even with that its at 40mpg and as of yesterday temps dipped to freezing again. :eek: All trips required me to idle inline as lowes has a line and loads your stuff for free. The dump had a long line too as they weigh you coming and going.

Im thinking a 4 to 6 or a 5 to 5 ratio maybe ideal in non freezing weather for max mpg and performance without a cel. :turtle:

Well, the Owners Manual for our 2014 Prius emphatically states NOT to use anything higher than E15:


• DO NOT use any flex-fuel or gasoline that could contain more than 15% ethanol, including from any pump labeled E30, E50, E85 (which are only some examples of fuel containing more than 15% ethanol).

Im glad I dont own a prius. :thumbup:

There are a ton of seadoo and skidoo owners who learned the hard way they can't even run E10. It's not just sitting with the gas, it's running it too. As said it leans it out a little but where it killed them is all the fuel lines are turned into green goo on the inside which ends up clogging the fuel filter. Then it really leans them out and they are dead in short order. This is also common on older outboards. Maybe you get by on a doggy Briggs motor but for high performance stuff I wouldn't run it unless you make adjustments and modifications for it.

Ha ha- the Briggs runs on regular and the Doo fails- which one has the "performance"?

I have a 2 cylinder 700cc Briggs on my mower that makes 24 HP but the 570cc 2 cylinder on my old seadoo made 65hp and weighs less. The seadoo is reliable with traditional gas, it was the fuel lines and ethonal that caused a problem. The factory switched lines on newer versions and you can on the older versions as well but it destroyed probably 1000s of pistons in the process. My last 1 cylinder 16hp Briggs motor wasn't all that reliable itself, sending a rod through the block after 8 years of light use (maybe 20-30 hours a year) . A seadoo with out the fuel issue will go more hours then that normally but I think so would a Briggs normally.

I cant think of anything productive you can do on a sea doo that warrens ethanol fuel. A jury rigged cat maybe a better idea to make it cleaner or just get a diesel engine and go slower.

The E10 is enough to cause problems and it is the only thing available. This thread was questioning if e blends can hurt. Answer, sometimes.
Productive? Its purpose is to produce joy if it wasn't fast, THEN it wouldn't be productive.