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MazdaMatt 07-23-2008 02:07 PM

side-cameras?
 
I tried searching the site and found nothing much. I tried googling and I only found rear-view backup cams for moms in suv's who can't drive.

Anybody have any info on a side-mirror replacement camera? I'm thinking 4"-7" screens on each side of my steering wheel and cams either mounted in the stock location, or on the fenders above my wheels.

NeilBlanchard 07-23-2008 02:16 PM

Hi Matt,

I've looked into this (there is a thread on it), and all the units I found were backup cameras, so, only one camera and one screen. There is a model sold at WalMart that uses Bluetooth -- and using two at once is impossible, since the RF would interfere with each other.

MazdaMatt 07-23-2008 02:29 PM

Are you sure? Bluetooth is a multi-frequency hopping standard. If bluetooth didn't work well in proximity, all the pretencious douchebags downtown with the stupid things in their ears would hear eachother's conversations.

SVOboy 07-23-2008 02:32 PM

Could you link the wal-mart thing? I'm interested.

I've also been thinking about this a lot lately, and I hope that yahya will chime in since I know he's looked into it. I tried searching on insightcentral but it seemed to no avail, *shrug*

i_am_socket 07-23-2008 02:41 PM

I believe the initial subject was mirror deletes for the prior thread. The question then becomes power for screens and cameras, data transmission from camera to screen, legality of such replacement (I never got an answer from the person I asked), and visibility/field of vision/etc.

Assuming it's legal to do so in your area/state/country, and that it works fine at night/in the rain/etc. then the next thing to worry about is the data transmission. Wireless has issues with frequency (google up data on rear view cameras and baby monitors for instance) so I would only use a wired connection.

Next is power: will the system's power consumption put enough strain on the battery to increase alternator usage and will the Cd savings of the mirror delete be enough to offset any increase? Also, it would need to be connected to main power so it still functions during EOC or other engine off times (ie, getting out of the car on a busy street).

For location I would put the cameras in the stock mirror locations for simplicity. I would also have small screens in the door corners because that's where I'm used to looking and anyone else who would end up driving my car for whatever reason wouldn't be confused.

But anywho, I haven't seen anything marketed as a sideview mirror replacement. It's likely due to questionable legality as the law is always slow to catch up with technology, but as vehicles like the Aptera become prevalent that may be cleared up.

MazdaMatt 07-23-2008 02:46 PM

Yeah, my biggest questions were also legallity, rain and night. As for location, i'd honestly opt to mount them over my wheels in a little "bubble". You'd get much better visibility of the cars beside me (no more blidspot).

My neck still works, so i'm not concerned about stuff like getting out of the car on a busy street.

Power consumption... good question. I would expect very little, but I will look up some stats on wattage for a small screen and a camera.

MazdaMatt 07-23-2008 02:53 PM

totally random selection:
2.5", 12V@90mA = 1W
3.5", 12V@350mA = 4.2W
6.2", 12V@650mA = 7.8W

This was all from one page, no search was done for "low power" screens.
Housed LCD Monitors from 2.5" to 15.4".

I will keep searching for small cameras for wattage. It is looking pretty good, so far.

MazdaMatt 07-23-2008 02:57 PM

here is some random camera with 1.8W consumption.

MobileVideo4Less.com: NEW! Flush Mount InfraRed Night Vision Color 1/4" CCD Keyhole Camera

So, a total system cost of about 10W and about 5 pounds of wiring, mounting, equipment.

So how much power is used by a pair of mirrors at 100km/h? (someone with more FE experience can field that Q)

SVOboy 07-23-2008 03:21 PM

10 watts isn't enough to give a damn about, so that's good news, :p

NeilBlanchard 07-23-2008 03:38 PM

Hiya,

Quote:

Originally Posted by SVOboy (Post 46837)
Could you link the wal-mart thing? I'm interested

Here's the EM thread with the link to Walmart's camera:
http://ecomodder.com/forum/showthrea...drag-2888.html

And here's a direct link to the camera:
http://www.walmart.com/catalog/produ...uct_id=4744711

The camera would have to have it's bracket cut off, of course. You "just" need to power the camera(s) with 12v -- it is set up to work off of the license plate light, I think.

trikkonceptz 07-23-2008 05:06 PM

That is quickly climbing the list as the next mod I am going to do. As far as placement I am going outside the box for this.

I am going to mount my cameras low on the door around the area of the door handle, just lower, for a simple reason. Without mirrors backing into spaces becomes more difficult as far as detecting space lines etc ..

Therefore A camera set lower can become a park assist as well while detecting large objects in its field of vision. I still double check with a head check before changing lanes.

As far as Johnny Law, he has to be really bored to pull me over for something as trivial as a mirror violation, in the end, I may tap one of the mirror plates and carry a bicycle mirror in case they want to be pricks, I'll just screw in a mirror and remove it at the next intersection ..

If I find any that are worh while I'll post them with links..

azraelswrd 07-23-2008 06:25 PM

Only thing the law cares about for most states is a driver-side mirror and a rearview. If you play prevention and don't give them a reason to stop you, you may be fine. In my town there are quite a few mandatory DUI checkpoints around town once a month or when a holiday comes up.

When I have 6-8 cops looking over my car and I'm already stopped that's just a ticket waiting to happen if I don't have the mirrors present. :o

NeilBlanchard 07-23-2008 11:23 PM

Hi,

Saab is using side cameras on the 9X BioHybrid car:

YouTube - Efficiency at Work

azraelswrd 07-23-2008 11:43 PM

I wonder why the prototype Saab (like nearly every car I see) still insists on traditional fog well "divots" and not a more aerodynamic shell or covering over it?

AeroAl 07-24-2008 01:27 AM

check out
Coslinger special HPV streamliner recumbent bicycle
halfway down there is a picture of their video system and a link to a source.

Al

Red 07-24-2008 01:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SVOboy (Post 46837)
Could you link the wal-mart thing? I'm interested.

I've also been thinking about this a lot lately, and I hope that yahya will chime in since I know he's looked into it. I tried searching on insightcentral but it seemed to no avail, *shrug*

IC is not the greatest place to look for mods. Its great for bragging about MPG though :rolleyes:

I never did it due to funds, but the model I checked into was a RoadMaster VR3 back up camera. The newest one comes with a 3.5" color LCD screen. You won't be able to count the paint chips on the car next to you but you'll be able to tell its there. Lens is a fish eye setup and its integral to the cam. I didn't see it as too much of a down side as I use my mirrors to get an overall view of my surroundings not as blind spot checking. Its got an RF range of around 20ft and is capable of transmitting over a couple of channels so you could run two at once. The LCD plugs into your 12v and the cam you splice into your back up lights or some 12v source. Since the receiver is mounted in the LCD and the cams are going to be used as mirrors, you are talking about a receiver-transmitter distance of 8ft tops, so the signal should be more than strong enough.

Legally out here in Cali you need your rear view and your driver side mirror. Never really been bothered about it in the Jeep and from what I have heard, you just need them where they should be, whether they are actually functional isn't that big of a deal.

Coyote X 07-24-2008 02:18 AM

http://metroxfi.com/wp-content/uploa...0330-thumb.jpg http://metroxfi.com/wp-content/uploa...0331-thumb.jpg http://metroxfi.com/wp-content/uploa...0333-thumb.jpg

Mine was pretty cheap, $25 for the camera and the 3.5" screen for $53

I did it by cutting off the base of the stock mirror then using a tube that the cameras fit inside to fiberglass into the base. After the fiberglass was strong enough I filled and smoothed it with lightweight body filler before painting it. They work pretty good and give a lot wider range than a normal mirror. The passenger side screen is a bit small but it gets the job done. Drivers side works great. Only bad thing is I have only managed to put 125 miles on the car since putting them on :( I need to get out and drive some more :)

tasdrouille 07-24-2008 08:51 AM

Cameras won't cut it in Canada. The best you can do is get rid of the passenger side mirror and downsize the driver side mirror as long as it meets the minimal specs.

Canada's motor vehicle safety act:

Quote:

Mirrors

General


111. (1) Any mirror referred to in this section that is installed on a vehicle shall

(a) have a stable support;

(b) be adjustable in the horizontal and vertical directions;

(c) be a unit magnification mirror, except in the cases referred to in subsection (6), paragraph (13)( b) and subsection (16);

(d) be free of sharp points or edges that could cause an injury to an occupant of the vehicle or to a pedestrian;

(e) except in the case of a System B mirror installed on a school bus that has a forward control configuration, be installed so that the driver's field of view through the mirror is not obscured by the portion of the windshield that is not wiped by the windshield wipers or by any opaque portion of the vehicle structure; and

(f) in the case of an outside rearview mirror, have no greater protrusion beyond the perimeter of the vehicle than is necessary to meet the field-of-view requirements for the mirror prescribed in this section.

(2) A rearview mirror referred to in subsection (7) or (11) or paragraph (26)(a) shall be capable of adjustment from within the occupant compartment of the vehicle.

(3) The average reflectance of a mirror referred to in this section shall be determined in accordance with SAE Standard J964, Test Procedure for Determining Reflectivity of Rear View Mirrors (June 1992).

(4) A mirror referred to in this section that is a single reflectance mirror shall have a reflectance level of at least 35 per cent.

(5) A mirror referred to in this section that is a multiple reflectance mirror shall have a daytime reflectance level of at least 35 per cent and a night-time reflectance level of at least 4 per cent. In the event of electrical failure, the mirror shall be adjustable, either manually or automatically, to a reflectance level of at least 35 per cent.

(6) An outside rearview mirror referred to in paragraph (7)(b) or subsection (26) or (27) that is installed on the side of the vehicle opposite the driver's side may be convex if

(a) its reflective surface area is equal to or greater than the reflective surface area that a unit magnification mirror must have in accordance with that paragraph or subsection;

(b) its average radius of curvature is not less than 890 mm (35 inches) and not greater than 1 800 mm (71.5 inches); and

(c) the radius of curvature at any point does not deviate by more than 12.5 per cent from the average of any five radius-of-curvature measurements made on its reflective surface at least 6 mm (0.25 inch) from the edge of the image display.

Passenger Cars and Three-wheeled Vehicles

(7) An inside rearview mirror shall be installed on every passenger car and three-wheeled vehicle and shall, under the conditions prescribed in subsection (8),

(a) provide the driver with a field of view to the rear that

(i) is not less than 20 measured horizontally rearward from the projected eye point, and

(ii) extends to the horizon and includes a point on the road surface not more than 60 m (200 feet) directly behind the vehicle; or

(b) where the inside rearview mirror does not provide the field of view to the rear described in paragraph ( a), be accompanied, on the side opposite the driver's side, by an outside rearview mirror that has not less than 90 per cent of the reflective surface area of an outside rearview mirror installed pursuant to subsection (11).

(8) For the purposes of subsection (7), the vehicle shall be on a level road surface and loaded with the lighter of the following loads, calculated on the basis of the driver and each occupant weighing 68 kg (150 pounds):

(a) a driver and four other occupants; and

(b) an occupant in each designated seating position.

(9) A field of view to the rear described in paragraph (7)(a) may be partially obscured by seated occupants or head restraints.

(10) An inside rearview mirror referred to in subsection (7), if situated in the head impact area, shall, when the reflective surface of the mirror is subjected to a force of 400 N (90 pounds) in any direction that is not more than 45 from the forward longitudinal direction, deflect, collapse or break away without leaving sharp edges.

(11) An outside rearview mirror shall be installed on the driver's side of every passenger car and three-wheeled vehicle in such a manner as to provide the driver with a field of view to the rear on a level road surface that

(a) may be partially obscured by the rear body or fender contours;

(b) extends to the horizon; and

(c) includes a line measuring 2.5 m (8 feet) perpendicular to and outboard from the vertical longitudinal plane tangent to the driver's side of the vehicle at its widest part, at a point 10.6 m (35 feet) behind the eyes of the driver seated with the driver's seat in the rearmost position.

(12) For the purposes of subsections (7), (9) and (11), the field of view to the rear of the driver shall be evaluated by using

(a) the location of the driver's eye reference points for the 95th percentile tangential cut-off specified in SAE Recommended Practice J941a, Passenger Car Driver's Eye Range (August 1967); or

(b) the driver's eye reference points at a nominal location appropriate for any 95th percentile adult male driver.

MazdaMatt 07-24-2008 09:17 AM

so... there goes that idea. I can't believe that someone would put that much effort into the description of a mirror... and not consider "other sighting devices".

trikkonceptz 07-24-2008 10:52 AM

Remember these laws were put into place long before the technology came about. I would take the chance and if stopped then take the data to the courts explaining the benefits to the technology. Not the aero-side, but the advantages of eliminating blind spots, better visibility, etc..

Eventually these laws will be updated, some one however has to be the sacrificial lamb.

MazdaMatt 07-24-2008 10:55 AM

I suppose if i put a small mirror inside my driver's side window, like against the A-pillar, then it would comply enough to tell a cop to go away... I'll keep it in mind. I think mirrors should be mounted more forward like old sportscars, so if i did a cam setup, it would be in my fenders above the wheels. No more blidspot :)

BTW, Coyote, nice work! I wouldn't put hte screen on the other side of the car though, seems pointless. I suppose it gets your head turning to check your blindspot, though. Should have installed it in the fender!

tasdrouille 07-24-2008 11:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by trikkonceptz (Post 47168)
Remember these laws were put into place long before the technology came about. I would take the chance and if stopped then take the data to the courts explaining the benefits to the technology. Not the aero-side, but the advantages of eliminating blind spots, better visibility, etc..

Eventually these laws will be updated, some one however has to be the sacrificial lamb.

I totally agree with that. The fine for such an infraction must not be all that high. In which case it would be worthwhile to get one an challenge it just to raise awareness on the shortcomings of the current law.

SVOboy 07-24-2008 01:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red (Post 47107)
IC is not the greatest place to look for mods. Its great for bragging about MPG though :rolleyes:

I never did it due to funds, but the model I checked into was a RoadMaster VR3 back up camera. The newest one comes with a 3.5" color LCD screen. You won't be able to count the paint chips on the car next to you but you'll be able to tell its there. Lens is a fish eye setup and its integral to the cam. I didn't see it as too much of a down side as I use my mirrors to get an overall view of my surroundings not as blind spot checking. Its got an RF range of around 20ft and is capable of transmitting over a couple of channels so you could run two at once. The LCD plugs into your 12v and the cam you splice into your back up lights or some 12v source. Since the receiver is mounted in the LCD and the cams are going to be used as mirrors, you are talking about a receiver-transmitter distance of 8ft tops, so the signal should be more than strong enough.

Legally out here in Cali you need your rear view and your driver side mirror. Never really been bothered about it in the Jeep and from what I have heard, you just need them where they should be, whether they are actually functional isn't that big of a deal.

I think the original post was deleted from IC. The owner claims to want to run it as a nice site for insight drivers but all I ever here is how he deletes stuff and bans people, :p

azraelswrd 07-24-2008 02:23 PM

Roll the dice and sack the mirrors or play it low key and still have them in spirit. Wow... that is pretty detailed for just mirrors! :eek:

from California
Quote:

Mirrors
26709. (a) Every motor vehicle registered in a foreign jurisdiction and every motorcycle subject to registration in this state shall be equipped with a mirror so located as to reflect to the driver a view of the highway for a distance of at least 200 feet to the rear of such vehicle.

Every motor vehicle subject to registration in this state, except a motorcycle, shall be equipped with not less than two such mirrors, including one affixed to the left-hand side.

(b) The following described types of motor vehicles, of a type subject to registration, shall be equipped with mirrors on both the left-and right-hand sides of the vehicle so located as to reflect to the driver a view of the highway through each mirror for a distance of at least 200 feet to the rear of such vehicle:

(1) A motor vehicle so constructed or loaded as to obstruct the driver's view to the rear.

(2) A motor vehicle towing a vehicle and the towed vehicle or load thereon obstructs the driver's view to the rear.

(3) A bus or trolley coach.

(c) The provisions of subdivision (b) shall not apply to a passenger vehicle when the load obstructing the driver's view consists of passengers.

Amended Ch. 74, Stats. 1970. Effective November 23, 1970.

i_am_socket 07-24-2008 02:30 PM

Jersey law is driver's side and rear-view mandatory, passenger side if the rear-view is blocked. I've gotten no problems from my passenger delete (though it really just looks like accident carnage at the moment).

An internal mirror would serve the same purpose, but I'd prefer the outside view and position adjustment that could come from an external video mount. Heck, if I could hook up the existing electric controls to change viewing angle...

Found this site for a rather convenient argument for video over mirrors (at least for those who prefer to allow computers to think for them): LINK

SVOboy 07-24-2008 02:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by i_am_socket (Post 47240)
Jersey law is driver's side and rear-view mandatory, passenger side if the rear-view is blocked. I've gotten no problems from my passenger delete (though it really just looks like accident carnage at the moment).

An internal mirror would serve the same purpose, but I'd prefer the outside view and position adjustment that could come from an external video mount. Heck, if I could hook up the existing electric controls to change viewing angle...

Found this site for a rather convenient argument for video over mirrors (at least for those who prefer to allow computers to think for them): LINK

Thanks for this bit of info. I'm deleting my passenger side for the drive home.

NeilBlanchard 07-24-2008 02:47 PM

Hi,

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coyote X (Post 47111)
http://metroxfi.com/wp-content/uploa...0330-thumb.jpg http://metroxfi.com/wp-content/uploa...0331-thumb.jpg http://metroxfi.com/wp-content/uploa...0333-thumb.jpg

Mine was pretty cheap, $25 for the camera and the 3.5" screen for $53

I did it by cutting off the base of the stock mirror then using a tube that the cameras fit inside to fiberglass into the base. After the fiberglass was strong enough I filled and smoothed it with lightweight body filler before painting it. They work pretty good and give a lot wider range than a normal mirror. The passenger side screen is a bit small but it gets the job done. Drivers side works great. Only bad thing is I have only managed to put 125 miles on the car since putting them on :( I need to get out and drive some more :)

That's awesome stuff -- almost exactly what I was thinking of.

How wide a view does the camera have? How is it at night (with the IR LED's)? Can you move the righthand screen closer to the driver, so you can see it better?

pasadena_commut 07-24-2008 04:31 PM

Can you please post a picture showing what the monitors look like from the driver's position? In the pictures above it looks like the passenger side screen is recessed into the glove box, and that can't be the way it is since you couldn't see the screen while driving.

How does the camera do when the sun is setting directly behind the car? That's a problem with normal side mirrors (causing a blinding reflection), here, might it damage the camera?

MazdaMatt 07-24-2008 04:32 PM

Good question. Also, how does it fair at night and in the rain, or rain AT night?

Coyote X 07-24-2008 10:35 PM

The angle is way better than a normal mirror. The angle it is sitting at shows the side of the car pretty much up to the angle you see out the window while looking at the screen so it gives great coverage. The IR things are all but useless at night. They can show stuff about 15ft away at best. The limited use I have had at night with them it isn't an issue because you can always see the marker lights or headlights just fine. Haven't had the sun shining directly at them since the sun doesn't do that around here but it really doesn't hurt a ccd sensor to point it at the sun other than it just washes out the image. So the screen would probably just show solid white but that will be a lot less glare than a mirror.

I have replaced the dash vents and put the screens in the openings. The glove box is under that panel. The cables that come with it are pretty long, like 20' so it could be mounted anywhere. Somewhere closer to the driver would be much better but a metro has a very small dash and I didn't have anywhere else I could put it :)

NismoMax80 07-25-2008 01:35 PM

i would think the cost would be way more than anything eventually saved with slight FE gains???

MazdaMatt 07-25-2008 01:37 PM

Anybody care to post before/after FE for a simple mirror delete? This would be the same thing, but the cost goes towards the safety factor.

i_am_socket 07-25-2008 01:54 PM

I had a .6 mpg improvement tank-to-tank after my passenger delete, but isn't exactly reliable data. Anyone with a gauge that can do an A-B-A test? Did Metro do one already?

RP-CLMBR 08-12-2008 08:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by i_am_socket (Post 47240)
Jersey law is driver's side and rear-view mandatory, passenger side if the rear-view is blocked. I've gotten no problems from my passenger delete (though it really just looks like accident carnage at the moment).

An internal mirror would serve the same purpose, but I'd prefer the outside view and position adjustment that could come from an external video mount. Heck, if I could hook up the existing electric controls to change viewing angle...

Found this site for a rather convenient argument for video over mirrors (at least for those who prefer to allow computers to think for them): LINK

on the same link that coyotee bought his cameras and screens is a back up camera with monitor in rearview and it has a remote xy angle adjustment for $109 I think it is www.gooddeals18.com/product/plcm5800

NeilBlanchard 09-12-2008 01:04 PM

Hi,

I am very tempted to buy these for my car! How's the wiring done -- just plug the screen into the camera and power them up? Do both the camera nd he screen need their own power connection?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coyote X (Post 47111)
http://metroxfi.com/wp-content/uploa...0330-thumb.jpg http://metroxfi.com/wp-content/uploa...0331-thumb.jpg http://metroxfi.com/wp-content/uploa...0333-thumb.jpg

Mine was pretty cheap, $25 for the camera and the 3.5" screen for $53

I did it by cutting off the base of the stock mirror then using a tube that the cameras fit inside to fiberglass into the base. After the fiberglass was strong enough I filled and smoothed it with lightweight body filler before painting it. They work pretty good and give a lot wider range than a normal mirror. The passenger side screen is a bit small but it gets the job done. Drivers side works great. Only bad thing is I have only managed to put 125 miles on the car since putting them on :( I need to get out and drive some more :)

TIA

Thalass 09-13-2008 05:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tasdrouille (Post 47139)
Cameras won't cut it in Canada. The best you can do is get rid of the passenger side mirror and downsize the driver side mirror as long as it meets the minimal specs.

Canada's motor vehicle safety act:

Quote:

111. (1) Any mirror referred to in this section that is installed on a vehicle shall

(b) be adjustable in the horizontal and vertical directions;


Maybe that's something to work on there. Rather than having a fisheye lens or pinhole, the camera should have a similar field of view that a mirror would provide, and have adjustment controls like power mirrors have. Even better would be adjustable aperture for night/day driving! I suppose you could do that electronically rather than mechanically.

That ought to satisfy some of the Man's objections at least.

trikkonceptz 09-13-2008 02:17 PM

I have since deleted my passenger side mirror and the only problem I'm having is backing in to spaces with visibility on that side.

As a fix, when I go to camera I will likely mount them in the front fenders recessed like an exhaust vent and low in the fender in order to see the ground and things like parking lines and such.

For now I will mount both screen directly in front of me @ the windshield so they are always in my line of site.

NeilBlanchard 09-13-2008 10:34 PM

Hi,

I've been contemplating using the adjustments on the stock mirror. But if you think about it, using a camera eliminates the need to make any adjustments -- since the purpose of adjusting the mirror is so different drivers can see the mirror. With a camera and screen, the equivalent adjustment would be on the screen, not the camera.

dcb 09-13-2008 10:56 PM

With a decent resolution fisheye camera, you could "unfisheye" the camera picture in software and pan up and down, left and right, on the monitor (and stabilize the picture), without introducing mechanical components that would be more prone to failure than their software counterparts.

NeilBlanchard 05-16-2011 03:46 PM

My new video cameras and screens arrived -- and boy the cameras are really small! They are about 5/8" in diameter x about 7/8" long. The holes in the mounting bracket are about 1 1/8" apart. I am going to have to try them out, but if they work well, or are better than my current cameras, I will make some fiberglass replacements for the stock mirror bases.

And, the screens did not come with stands, but I have stands from the old screens that should work.


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