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Old 11-05-2011, 09:07 AM   #41 (permalink)
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Deathtrain, against the $19000 Cruze, based on the American average useage, they say the Volt will have cost the same to own and operate(maintenance and fuel costs included) after 5˝years.

Tugboat, the price is high but the car really should be competing against entry level luxury cars and not economy cars/standard hybrids. It is much more like a 3 series than a Prius. The ride is much nicer than the Prius or the Leaf, as is the interior finish. All the displays are colour led, one is a touch screen and the capacitive touch button layout in the car must have cost them a ton on a car by car bases compared to conventional buttons in every other car I've seen. The fit and finish of the cabin is the best I've seen from any GM product. It is very much like what you would expect from a much more expensive European car. The car is a Technology Halo car for them so they went over the top. The Spark BEV will be much more inline with the economy car segment you can be sure and the Gen2 Volt(sometime around 2015) will be closer to the $30000 mark you can be sure. But even then when you look at price, and compare apples to apples, it is the most expensive but not really by that much. The Nissan Leaf starting price here in Canada is $38390, they say the plug in Prius will be $39525, so the Volt at $41545 is not that out of line. And though both the Leaf and the PIP are nice cars neither come near to the comfort, interior finish, and ride of the Volt.

Right now like Frank Lee says, I've paid to be a first adopter. Maybe I need my head read, but after a month of driving the car I'm glad I didn't buy anything else!

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Old 11-05-2011, 09:26 AM   #42 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wainair View Post
...but after a month of driving the car I'm glad I didn't buy anything else!
What choice do you have but to like it after spending so much on it? Funny thing about cognitive dissonance

Anyway, the patriot in me hates to bash it, but the patriot in me is not happy with the state of affairs either. Does someone making 170k need $7500 of my tax dollars to buy an overpriced car?

If they only made an electric FIRST, they could have been to market sooner and had direct competition for the leaf (more room for batteries), then worked in their gas addiction agenda.

All that luxury talk has squat to do with efficiency or economy, I am tired of people stroking it to their exhaust pipes, it is transportation, get over it already. It is more than a little foolish, don't people have anything better to concern themselves with than frivolity? It certainly doesn't seem worth my time to discuss it (and touchscreens suck compared to a button you can feel with your eyes closed, or better yet with your eyes on the road).
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Old 11-05-2011, 10:05 AM   #43 (permalink)
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Add the 15% loss in charging to the cost per mile. At least that is what Consumer Reports measured from the meter to the battery, when they tested the Leaf. I guess it is just easy to conveniently forget that you are paying at the meter.

Most of my families driving could be covered by the Leaf and I already have 220 volt supply in the garage. Then I have to consider the 13k miles in the last 1.5 years on my bikes at an average of close to 80 MPG, without having to loose 15% of the fuel I put in the tank.

Driving a 13 year old Maxima that cost me $2k and gets say 28-30 MPG, by the time I recovered the cost of the 40k car I will probably be dead of old age. Take the same 40 and stick it in a stock paying 12%, or even better a stock like Dominion Resources that has just about doubled in value since March of 09 and paid 7% dividend on the March 08 price. Now it is closer to 9%, if you bought it in March 09.

At $200 per month it would take 200 months to pay for the Volt with just our monthly fuel expense (if we paid cash). That's 16 2/3 YEARS! If I live that long I'll be almost 77 years old. I would also have to never have put a single drop of fuel in the Volt.

I guess if you want to eliminate petroleum fuel consumption as you greatest priority then you could justify buying the Volt. It is amusing how the manufacturers seem to think that paying a huge up front cost instead of higher monthly fuel costs is a better alternative.

Or I could just have kept my VX and averaged close to 60 MPG, but I like riding the bike and it gets great mileage without much hypermiling. Personally taking the little CBR 250 or the Vulcan out for a ride and getting where I need to get locally with little real direct cost supports my philosophy that the vehicle should do most of the job of being efficient while the driver, or rider, should use practical techniques to maximise mileage, without extreme efforts that double the time necessary to get the same distance.

Maybe an electric motorcycle in the future for me, as long as it had a range of about 80 miles that would be fine.

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Old 11-05-2011, 10:23 AM   #44 (permalink)
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I appreciate the insight on the Volt, wainair, I didn't realize that the Volt was that upscale inside. I'm glad that you like yours but from a marketing perspective, they should've gotten something cheaper on the market and then had the fanfare and angels singing as they brought out the Volt as something to step up to or something like that

Glad you're enjoying your car
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Old 11-05-2011, 12:49 PM   #45 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Mechanic View Post
I guess if you want to eliminate petroleum fuel consumption as you greatest priority then you could justify buying the Volt. It is amusing how the manufacturers seem to think that paying a huge up front cost instead of higher monthly fuel costs is a better alternative.
But at this point, reducing petroleum consumption and CO2 output IS the main reason most of us who buy hybrids & EVs are going to buy them. After all, we all should know that buying ANY new car doesn't save money.

Nor is $40K out of line when plenty of people are willing to pay that and much more for a conventional car or SUV.
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Old 11-05-2011, 01:03 PM   #46 (permalink)
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It ISN'T about minimum cost/mile.
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Old 11-05-2011, 01:55 PM   #47 (permalink)
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I 'mnot in total agreement with the Volt being much more refined or upscale than the Prius interior. Apple to apples, the higher trim package Prius easily competes with the Volt interior and costs less. With the new plastics and leather the 2012 Prius is much nicer than previous models. I've had the opportunity to examine both vehicles up close during the 2011 Green Dive Expo Bay Area event. The Volt is indeed nice, however, I could never justify the price or environmental benefits compared to a high mpg hybrid unless I drove under 50miles a day and lived in an area were coal power was either drastically reduced or was produced in a new cleaner plant. Volt emissions are not the greatest either if you have to drive in charge sustain mode.

That being said, most Volt owners are very happy with their cars and they are drastically reducing their fuel use so I applaud them for that!
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Old 11-05-2011, 03:30 PM   #48 (permalink)
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Oh you are right Mech. A full charge uses 10kwh of battery power but it takes 12kwh's to recharge the battery to full. Plus the car will maintain the battery at it's preferred temperature range while it is plugged in so there is a phantom loss there too in heating or cooling the battery. That is one of the drawbacks of current Li-ion battery tech. To maintain the longevity of the battery it requires some thermal kids glove treatment.

Dollars and cents you will always have a better bottom line with a older paid for car and likewise if it was only about dollars and cents I would have been better off buying something like a base Mazda2 or Nissan Sentra new than the Volt. For me it is not just about the bottom line(though that is part of it). There are a whole host of factors that went into my decision to buy the Volt and not all of them were logical or financially sound! LOL

Thanks folks for the good points folks. I love the conversation!
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Old 11-05-2011, 03:32 PM   #49 (permalink)
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I must agree F8L the 2012 Prius interior is a vast improvement over previous model years!
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Old 11-15-2011, 04:50 PM   #50 (permalink)
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Good luck trying to be positive about an American car. It's not so much that the members are anti-American auto as those that are are very vocal about it. Now if the same car had a Japanese badge on the hood the rose colored glasses would come out. Unfortunately the enthusiasm for economical/ecological cars surpasses the understanding of economics by many. When a car company won't give them the car they want, the demand side of supply and demand is way out of scale. When they do, THEN it's not economical. I personally grew up a GM guy, and I carry the badge to this day (although I drive a 2000 Insight manual). Good for you; I wish I could afford a Volt, or a Fusion Hybrid for that matter. Regardless, I will try to keep an open mind to any car.

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