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WannabeEVer 11-29-2008 01:26 AM

Starter motor E-Bike
 
I've had this idea for a while but only recently found a place where someone else had done it online. I was thinking of mounting a starter motor from a car onto a bicycle and power it with ATV batteries. I've got my bike, motor and I've started to build the lifting lever to take the motor off the tire. Yes, the motor will actually be rolling on the tire, i did this to minimize any gearing i'd have to do by attaching it to the sprocket. I'll use a knurled cylinder to replace the sprocket on the starter to keep grip on the tire. The rider will still be able to pedal and if they have the motor down on the tire and they can recharge the battery by pedaling with the regen braking. Instead of a controller I'm going to use a switch and 2 12v batteries. The switch box will have an on/off and a 12v/24v switch in it so the rider will first have to get the bike up to speed then they can engage the motor and keep a current speed. I'm hoping to have it done before the end of January but I'm doing it as a school project. The cost so far: $0 :). I'll try to get pics up soon.

bennelson 11-29-2008 09:05 AM

I've seen people do that before. It's cheap and works fine.

Don't expect huge range and speed, but its a fun little project. Go for it!

order99 11-30-2008 07:22 PM

I'm planning something similar-I just discovered a nice cheap Touring bike (single gear) and i'm going to take advantage of its mechanical simplicity by attaching a sprocket beside the wheel opposite the chain and running a second chain to the motor behind my seat. My choice of motor is a 12V, 50A Ghia generator-several local mechanics tell me the motor will withstand up to 2400+ RPM for an extended period, and at 24V it's going to max at 1200-so i'll also be foregoing expensive controllers for a controller/throttle box(a model railroad transformer rated at 24V and 120A, and i'll add a spring to the sliding lever for a deadman switch).

The bad news is i'm broke, so i'll be waiting a few weeks before I can grab some Lead Acid batteries rated at 12V 25Ahr-but at least I can use my 12V 13.5A charger so I won't have to buy one (and Balancing won't be a problem since I can only charge one at a time, mixed blessing there). Oh, you and I will both need a simple Voltmeter so we can read our 'tanks'.

The OTHER bad news is that I live in the Boonies, so my EV will be a toy at best, the nearest town is 11 miles away. :( Still, I have everything but the Gears and Batteries just lying around, may as well put my theory to the test!

BTW, have you considered building a superlight Bike trailer and adding some extra packs in parallel for extra range? The Instructables website-

Instructables - Make, How To, and DIY

-has dozens of DIY Bike trailers, most of them created from somebody's latest dumpster diving session...i've made the PVC one already. Eventually, you and I might get the speed and range required to either get pulled over by the Cops or get run over by traffic... :o

Just to to be clear though-you finish your Project, you're gonna have to call yourself something else... :D

WannabeEVer 11-30-2008 07:42 PM

From what I've seen of starter motor bikes, range shouldn't be too much of a problem. The main source of information I'm using to build mine is "http://autospeed.com/cms/search/index.html?keywords=building+an+electric+bike&x=0& y=0" and they guy there used two 18 Ahr batteries and said he got over 20km's out of them on very hilly terrain. The little bike computer is an awesome idea, it's got an odometer, trip distance, trip average speed, current speed and trip time. I'm definitely getting me one of those. I also love the little switch box idea instead of spending too much money on a fancy controller. Also, I'd like to thank Amigo's Autowrecking in Clavet for my free starter motor.

order99 11-30-2008 10:20 PM

Er...I don't recall mentioning a Bike Computer-did you find one at Instructables? I'm just going to fasten a small box to the handlebars, bolt the HO switch to the underside and a Voltmeter to the top. The local Wal-mart does sell a self-contained gauge though-Speed, mileage and clock, uses a watch battery. I doubt i'll go fast enough to need one, but at $5 I might pick it up anyway.

Nice to know you can get 20 KM on hills with a Starter motor and 18Ahr, but i'd need over twice that for even a Grocery run-of course i'll still have my pedals (huff, puff, puff...). This is where the PVC Pipe Trailer would come in though-4 extra Batts wired in parallel to the main circuit would triple the range while remaining at 24V, for 60+Km(38 miles) and still have space for about 3 ft of cargo. The bad news of course is a) I can't afford ANY batteries right now and b)i'd have to charge six batteries in a row with ONE charger! :( Of course by the time I have money for 6 Batts I might have enough for a Marine Multi-charger w/ separate ports for each cell...after I get my next Temp job of course-

(razzzefrazzen Recession...)

Still, I can bolt on the mountings I need and use the Bike as is until I get my next check-after that i'll have at least the two Batts for Power Assist and use my legs for the most part(wheeze, gasp...).

Glad to know you like the HO switch idea. The box acts as both a Potentiometer and a Voltage limiter, and if you reside near any Model Railroad stores you could probably find the odd one available (the 12V are far more common though). I'm only using one because my Dad used to collect Train sets-I cleaned out the barn last month and found all my EV parts just sitting there! I checked the corners for some NiMHs or NiCads but I guess that would be pushing it... :D

WannabeEVer 11-30-2008 10:25 PM

The computer i was talking about was with that website that i had there. What about regen braking though, that would save you a lot of power too. If you run out of juice you could pedal with the motor on, yeah it'd be a little tougher but you'd be putting power back into the batteries.

order99 12-01-2008 12:53 AM

Ah, found it!

Browser Warning

Thanks.

Ryland 12-02-2008 09:52 AM

starter motors are designed to only run for a few hours total in their life and only for up to 10 seconds at a time or they tend to overheat, look at the size of them, they are around 2 horse power and the size of a quart jar, the 2 horse power continues use motor that is in my garage is about the size of a water melon.
starter motors also tend to have very small soft copper brushes, instead of the larger carbon brushes, they can handle more current but they tend to wear really fast, but if the motor only needs to last a few hours then that's ok.

order99 12-02-2008 09:21 PM

You know, the more I look at the Autospeed article, the more I wonder-do those double-switches use a Resistor to go from 12V to 24V, or is it simply two separate circuits with two separate switches? It seems like such a simple idea that I have trouble wrapping my head around it-the fact the author of that article could get Regen so easily that is. Guess my lack of Electronics training is showing...now i'm tempted to cross 'expensive Controller ' off the blueprints for my Dream EV and replace with 'Resistor/Contactor Array'! I'll be sure to use a different color crayon... :p

Ryland-i've no idea what year model starter WannabeEVer has, but would starter motors from older, obsolete models have the durability required for an EV bike? I've seen full-sized cars converted with old Aircraft starters, after all. If not, i'll point him to a few cheap Generators I found on Ebay($7-20 if you want to clean/recondition, $70-100 for perfect).

captainslug 12-02-2008 09:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WannabeEVer (Post 75654)
The computer i was talking about was with that website that i had there. What about regen braking though, that would save you a lot of power too. If you run out of juice you could pedal with the motor on, yeah it'd be a little tougher but you'd be putting power back into the batteries.

Regen will only marginally extend your range (about 10%). And pedaling with the regen on will be almost as hard as trying to pedal while holding the brake down all the way.
For a low-power vehicle such as an eBike, regen offers very very little.

If you want to build an e-Bike I would recommend looking into hub motors. Golden motor offers some very nice kits in a variety of price points and performance levels.
Hub Motor, Regenerative Braking Controller, LiFePO4 Battery Pack, brushless dc motor, electric bike,power wheelchair,bike conversion kit

MetroMPG 12-02-2008 10:31 PM

You'll always go further by "driving without brakes" in an EV/hybrid than you will by using regen! The Autospeed guy used a permanent magnet motor, which is why getting regen was pretty straightforward.

The aircraft starter motor/generators used in EV conversions have proper bearings in them, FYI.

WannabeEVer 12-02-2008 10:55 PM

Well the starter motor i got was free so I might as well give it a try. And yeah, in the Autospeed article there's two separate switches, they're just in the same box. This is just a school project I'm working on and if it works out well I might, in the future, try tinkering with an EV. I'm going to be working on it again tomorrow so I'll try to get some pictures up. So far its just the lever to move the motor on and off the wheel that I'm working on.

WannabeEVer 12-17-2008 01:55 PM

New Pics!
 
2 Attachment(s)
Alright, i've finally got pictures to put up of my bike and the lever to lift the motor. It's not anything special and i've got to cut some pieces but it works. I'm hoping to get the batteries and control swtiches over the christmas break and hopefully get it running soon after. Sorry the close up one is a little blurry.

MetroMPG 12-17-2008 03:14 PM

Cool! When you get it going, you've got to post up a YouTube vid too.

Christ 12-17-2008 08:54 PM

Since the starter motor will overheat quickly, P&G will be mandatory in this case.

A pulse at full potential (what the starter motor was designed to do) will accelerate very quickly - and take much less than 10 seconds to reach it's maximum speed.

Assuming a 10 speed bike, you could "pulse" in high gear, reaching a very high speed quite quickly, then "bleed off" slowly, using your own light pedaling in whatever gear will help you maintain the speed for the longest time before pulsing again.

I'm afraid that using a normal car's starter will require something like this, as they heat up VERY quickly, and the resin that holds the coils together will melt, not to mention the magnets on the armature will crack - quickly.

My Uncle Jimmy used to rebuild starters and alternators, of all shapes and sizes, and I used to help him on weekends.

bennelson 12-17-2008 09:20 PM

The motor could also have a large heat-sink, blower, or both to help cool it.

I would suggest just experimenting with the motor to see how much of an issue heating actually is, then you can decide what the best way to deal with it is.

Nice simple design though, should be fun to play with!!

WannabeEVer 12-17-2008 09:58 PM

Well if i would be riding it today it would have no problem cooling itself. It's been around -30 C for the past few days. Frickin cold! But yeah, P & G would be what i'd be doing, there wouldn't be much of a point going continuously. Now its time to go battery shopping, anyone know where to find cheap atv or motorcycle batteries?

Christ 12-17-2008 10:04 PM

Country areas around you? Do you mind reviving dead batteries?

Salvage batteries can normally be had from any tractor supply company (farm equipment), since they usually pay people up to $3 each for scrap batteries (undrained).

Let them know what you're doing, and they may be willing to help out.

Junkyards are typically a good place to get halfway decent batteries as well, and if nothing else, you could even start off with a small battery from a power-wheels toy or something, whatever you can make provide 12V.

You might find some rechargeable 6V flash light dry-cells relatively cheap too. The lantern batteries, I mean. (You can actually start a car on two new ones, wired in series.)

bennelson 12-17-2008 10:49 PM

Look to see if you have a computer recycler in your area. They gets tons of great small batteries from power backups. Small batteries can go in series for high voltage speed, or in parallel for more range capacity.

order99 12-18-2008 04:04 AM

Most of the Computer Recyclers end up dealing with the NiMH or Lithiums, don't they? I'd normally consider this a bonus...but can a cheap standard charger work with non-Lead chemistry? Or is that only when you're trying to balance a pack?

When I have time to start my own project, i'll probably go with dual 12V, 20 Ahr Wheelchair Batteries-I have a standard 12V charger and can just charge one at a time(at least Balancing won't be a problem!).

I was toying with another option briefly-my Dad picked up a half-dozen old NiMH packs-and Chargers- for his Cordless tools for peanuts at a yard sale and is testing them out(if even one of them works he's got his money's worth!). It got me thinking... 12V NiMH packs for tools only hold about 4Ahrs apiece, but four strings of doubled packs=24V and 16Ahrs, bulky but light. Hold on, let me try some ASCII :

--p---p---p---p-
--b---b---b---b-

Ok. The roughly L-shaped packs are jammed into the box (which uses
contact-springs just like the Cordless packs for instant Swapping) and fits below the Center support. Behind the seat are 8 individual chargers(assuming that, like my Dad, you found the chargers with the packs!) hooked up to a Powerstrip and secured by a similar box. I'm told NiMHs can discharge more deeply than LA, so...let's assume about 12-14 miles per charge(i'm lowballing). If you start out with a full charge you have roughly 12-14 miles range, are a two-minute switchout away from another 12-14 mile charge-the fresh ones in the Charger Array-and then you can hook the Array up for roughly 45 minutes and have another 12-14 miles...in other words, you could take a long lunch(90 minutes) and have roughly 60 miles of travel under your belt. Then it's time for a long dinner and another 28 miles or so...if you're in an Urban environment and nobody begrudges you a Plug-in, you could run out of juice before the bike does! And this is assuming minimal pedaling... :)

This naturally assumes that I have my Dad's incredible Scrounging abilities though. Otherwise, it's LA for now.

Oh, WannabeEVer-glad to see you've got your project started! I just put new paint on my Donor (and the solid tubes-wish i'd had these as a kid). I've still got the Network test to go before i'm employable-did I mention I got my A+ cert(YAHOO!!!) so it looks like I get to learn from your setbacks...speaking of setbacks, Dad found out I had 'his' old VW generator and politely requested it back. And the transformer. :(

Not to worry though-when I mentioned the uses I had planned to put the parts to, he fished out a broken Craftsman 18V, 450W Hammerdrill, a handful of low-voltage Contactors, various Fuses and a few 12V Non-rechargeable Dry Cells to test everything with...

Dad also casually mentioned that the VW Generator( 1.8+HP at 24V) would have probably turned my light Touring frame into a screaming 30MPH+ Motorbike-not what I want with one back-wheel brake! With this Drill motor though, I might be able to go for a 1/3 gear ratio and have a nice, high-torque hill-climber at 15-18MPH. Yep, Dad's joined my design team-I might actually have a chance to pull this off now!

Ok, breaktime's over-got to hit the books one more time before bed. One more Test and it's Interview time...

MetroMPG 12-18-2008 12:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WannabeEVer (Post 79135)
anyone know where to find cheap atv or motorcycle batteries?

You can probably also get cheap or free SLA batteries from alarm companies. They replace them when they're down to 80% capacity.

Know anyone at the local hospital? A lot of their electronic equipment has battery backup that gets replaced often as well (so I'm told).

almightybmw 12-19-2008 03:28 AM

Question: The last starter I played with the starter gear pops out via a solenoid to engage, and withdraws when the power is cut. Couldn't you use that with a friction wheel to work instead of an armature to lift the whole assembly? This may have only applied to a certain starter I had (no idea what it was though), but I thought it was a universal thing. I have a super beefy V8 starter at home I'd like to play with, weighs about 25lbs (holy crap heavy). I'm really curious what a low amperage would do for longevity's sake. Batteries should be easy to come by, there's a few (SLA) sitting on the back desk for at least 5 months now.

Ryland 12-19-2008 09:35 AM

air plane starters tend to be built better then car starters, I'm not sure why it would be ok for a car starter to fail but not ok for an air plane to fail... maybe it has to do with being in the air and peoples fear of heights.
I wouldn't choose a car starter because I like things to last, I've put 1000's of miles on electric bicycles and never had one brake down on me, I like to keep it that way.

Christ 12-19-2008 09:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by almightybmw (Post 79364)
Question: The last starter I played with the starter gear pops out via a solenoid to engage, and withdraws when the power is cut. Couldn't you use that with a friction wheel to work instead of an armature to lift the whole assembly? This may have only applied to a certain starter I had (no idea what it was though), but I thought it was a universal thing. I have a super beefy V8 starter at home I'd like to play with, weighs about 25lbs (holy crap heavy). I'm really curious what a low amperage would do for longevity's sake. Batteries should be easy to come by, there's a few (SLA) sitting on the back desk for at least 5 months now.

I've seen only very few starters that don't work this way, b/c once they've stopped applying torque to the flywheel, they disengage so as not to be damaged by engine speed.

If you've ever had a starter "stick" to the flywheel, it makes a horrible whining noise as the engine spins up to idle.

WannabeEVer 01-27-2009 11:04 PM

Roller installed
 
Alright, sorry about the delay on the updates for this but I've got the roller in, i just knurled a piece of metal, drilled a hole in the centre just a little smaller than the end of the sprocket, then heated up the knurled piece, froze the sprocket and they fit perfectly. I put a couple tack welds on just to make sure nothing would come loose. Talking about the solenoid thing, on the starter i have there's actually a separate power connection for the actual motor to the solenoid. So normally the power would go into the solenoid, then to the motor then back out, but if i just disconnect the solenoid part then it should be all good. Now I've just gotta go shopping for my electrical stuff and if everything works well I've got myself an electric bike. :D

almightybmw 01-28-2009 01:39 AM

awesome. Post up pictures of the setup when you can. Wish I had more free time to mess with the spare starter I've got. I'd love to begin biking to work again.

order99 01-28-2009 11:31 PM

Wish I had more time AND money. :(

Looks like you may be the first of us to finish-don't forget the pictures!

rob_fed 06-17-2010 12:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryland (Post 75905)
starter motors are designed to only run for a few hours total in their life and only for up to 10 seconds at a time or they tend to overheat, look at the size of them, they are around 2 horse power and the size of a quart jar, the 2 horse power continues use motor that is in my garage is about the size of a water melon.
starter motors also tend to have very small soft copper brushes, instead of the larger carbon brushes, they can handle more current but they tend to wear really fast, but if the motor only needs to last a few hours then that's ok.

I made this in 1999: "www".evalbum.com/251

For the most part, when a gear reduction starter motor is designed for intermittent use, not continuous duty. But a GR motor can be modified to allow for more continuous use. My nephew rode this go cart for over an hour, the motor was hot and the 90amp Hawker battery was down to 10.5 volts. But with many, many hours of use, I never have had to change any of the brushes (incidentally, most starter motor brushes are carbon based). Also, this motor was not brand new to start with, it was 15 years old from the auto wrecking yard.

rob_fed 06-17-2010 12:09 AM

Take away the quotes in the www, I had to add them because this is my first post on this forum.


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