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TheMarkofPolo 06-11-2012 01:00 PM

Stayed in an Earthship!
 
5 Attachment(s)
So I had the opportunity to stay in an Earthship a couple weeks ago near Taos, New Mexico. My brother-in-law, his friend, and I stayed two nights in an Earthship called the Global Three Bedroom model (aka The Euro).

This was sustainable design at its finest! It was completely off the grid (ours was powered by photovoltaics), extremely efficient (NO A/C unit needed because of an ingenious circulation system), and very water-wise (water sourced from rain/snowmelt, greywater toilet, plant filtration cells). With a solar hot water heater and no A/C unit, the only electricity needed was for lighting (when the south-facing windows weren't filled with natural light), the refrigerator, and basic appliances (NO microwave). Lights and fridge were DC powered. Outlets were converted to AC.

The home was built into the side of a man-made berm, reinforced with tire bricks, cans/bottles, and adobe/cement/stucco.

More pictures can be found here and here.

Conclusion: I slept much more soundly here than at any motel on the trip!

Has anyone else seen these in person before?

cfg83 06-11-2012 01:46 PM

TheMarkofPolo -

There is a lot of talent in New Mexico for making these buildings. In the 1990's I went on a tour of New Mexico and Arizona and we saw these. New Mexico is ideal because :

- High elevation => mild summers => lower A/C requirements
- Crispy clear skies for PV
- Crispy clear skies for passive solar heating in winter (high mass floors and green house)
- Low humidity in summer => lower A/C requirements
- Cheap(?) land for DIY designs like hay bale and tires and berms that need lots of square footage to work.

CarloSW2

lowglider 06-19-2012 07:52 PM

I fell in love with the design of these Earthships when I saw the movie Garbage Warrior. Not only are they super efficient, they also look like nothing else, very beautiful to my eyes.
How practical are they to live in, have you noticed anything silly or have they worked out all the details by now?

redyaris 06-19-2012 08:46 PM

I have my own copy of Garbage Worrior and have watched it many times. What I really like is the water management system and the developemnet of wast management systems. While riding through Nevada I kept thinking that, this is the place for earthships.

ecomodded 06-19-2012 10:14 PM

I want one.
A concrete one, I know a steel worker who will help me erect it. I am wanting to use a tilt up design, generally used for commercial buildings. The benefit of a tilt up is you pour the concrete on the site then with the help of a crane you tilt it up into position. First you make your cement floor then use it to pour your walls on.
A tip is to not make the tilt ups too heavy for the available crane.
I am finishing some reno's on my house, then I'm selling it and moving. Off the grid, maybe a clear cut..

TheMarkofPolo 06-20-2012 12:22 AM

My brother-in-law heard about these in Garbage Warriors, too. That's what led to the post-graduation roadtrip.

I would definitely like to see the design alterations for Earthships built in other climates and microclimates. St. Louis, for example, gets more rain, is much more humid, is irregularly sunny and isn't terribly windy. Still, many homes in St. Louis use basements, so perhaps parts of this design could be adapted...maybe even retrofitted?

The practicality of an Earthship in the West is spot on. It's a water-miser in a part of the country where water is scarce, improperly used (golf courses and Vegas), and reduced snowmelt from the mountains is a concern. It's off-the-grid where bringing out grid ties, being at the mercy of power utilities when lines go down, and energy produced isn't terribly sustainable. And, as I said before, the passive temperature control is fantastic, practical, and $-saving in the long run.

A couple quirks I did notice:
1) The vent boxes in the roof did NOT have any mesh to keep out insects. I had an abundance of moths attacking the LED TV screen the first night. The next day I noticed ants and a couple beetles in the hallway along the plant cells (coming from small cracks in the seals at the front door.

2) The water pump that sends greywater through the planter cells is a little loud, and was inconveniently placed next to the master bedroom. Every time someone took a shower or whatever, I knew about it. It could be muffled or placed down the hall just a hair.

Has anyone seen Earthships elsewhere? Looks like the late Dennis Weaver built one in Colorado.

jtbo 06-20-2012 12:14 PM

Hee those would not work. several months in a year I can't see the sun as it stays behind the forest that surrounds me, at the same time temperature can occasionally reach -40F.

That really bugs me as I could easily build solar PV system that would generate all the power I need if there just would be sun, at October sun is useless for anything and at end of March it starts to be useful just a bit, but time between those two points is when we need most of heating and despite my optimizing in heating, there is no way to store enough heat for winter at summer time.

At this time of year, there is 2-3 hours in a day that sun is not up though, if I could put that in a can somehow :P But even now, it is more cloudy than sunny, so can't get much out from the sun.

They were not stupid that did build my house at late 40's, at late March sun is already heating house so that it does cut 2-3 months heating bill, also for summer there is windows and storage areas placed so that there is natural ventilation, constant wind at stairs that cools heat out easily, this all with original sawdust insulation and such.

Near equator there is limitless amount of energy available from my perspective especially when one keeps forests around him there is natural cool, but still one can get huge amount of energy from the sun, living without money could be quite bit easier than here, so I envy such conditions a bit.

redyaris 06-26-2012 07:33 PM

jtbo
You need to do more research before coming to the conclusion that they would not work in your location.
The underlying philosophy of earth ships is that they be adapted to the location that they are built on. When the build site has colder temps with less sun then the building has to have more insulation and a very small backup heating system for the times without solar heating...
If you go to earthships web site you can learn more, you may be able to get some books or the dvd from a local library.
There are some earth ships being built in England and other places in Europe... as well as other places on planet earth.

jtbo 06-26-2012 10:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by redyaris (Post 314093)
jtbo
You need to do more research before coming to the conclusion that they would not work in your location.
The underlying philosophy of earth ships is that they be adapted to the location that they are built on. When the build site has colder temps with less sun then the building has to have more insulation and a very small backup heating system for the times without solar heating...
If you go to earthships web site you can learn more, you may be able to get some books or the dvd from a local library.
There are some earth ships being built in England and other places in Europe... as well as other places on planet earth.

England is warm, very warm, sure there can bit bit of cold, but Alaska level of cold is something such should be prepared for and thing is that sun is rather useless for 9 months, it is sure shining in the summer, but then heating is not needed, only for hot water such is needed.


Our building regulations already are demanding a lot of insulation, I think it was more than 200mm of rock wool at walls, over 400mm at ceiling and floor, that is minimum from my memory, around double and you get passive heated house, which is not requiring active heating most of the time.

Windows are here very small and contain 2 glasses with argon gas between them + 1 glass outside, also we use two doors to outside, outer one has 3 sealing surface, inner has 1 or 2, varies a bit.

Some are using already solar water heaters with vacuum pipes, which help to get hot water, but still useless at heating, that is our problem here, we get lot of sun hours at summer, 23 hours sunshine if not cloudy, but as then heating is not needed and hardly any electricity, it becomes bit much at totally wrong time and in practice is pretty much useless.

AC is not really needed here, this month here has been 3 days with temp over +20C.

It would require big modifications to design to it to work here and I don't think it would be earth ship any longer. It is not earth-ship's fault that it will not be good design here, it is this stupid climate and latitude that really require one to burn something to heat house. 5 square meters of wood and 4400kWh electricity was last years numbers, where in similar type of house typical number is well over 20 000kWh, nearly 30 000kWh and over 2000 litres of oil as many have oil heating.


I really wish that I would live near equator, living costs would be a fraction from what they are here, no snow to plow either, no need to buy electricity either.
Oh great, it is again below +5C at this early in the morning, there is usually one month in a year when temperature stays above freezing whole time and it is next month, but currently it might be that there is chance of get below freezing temps next month too, this place is just too cold for human beings, 35M years ago all oceans were nearly +20C and even here was warm around the year, now that would be nice to have back.

TheMarkofPolo 06-27-2012 12:42 AM

I recommend going to their project section: Sustainable Green Buildings: Current Projects & Events | Learn More

There are photos from projects around the world. Unfortunately, many of the link names and photo details don't match (Corner Cottage project goes to the Fife, Scotland photos for example).

jtbo 06-27-2012 10:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheMarkofPolo (Post 314134)
I recommend going to their project section: Sustainable Green Buildings: Current Projects & Events | Learn More

There are photos from projects around the world. Unfortunately, many of the link names and photo details don't match (Corner Cottage project goes to the Fife, Scotland photos for example).

I would say that links on that page are seriously messed up, now if houses are built as well as that web page, that is impression what page visitors might get and that can't be good for business.

I wonder how they deal with humidity and radon, then those rubber tires are something you don't want to live next to as even they are old, they still emit those nasty vapors, rubber is decomposing all the time, given enough time it becomes brittle, that is because stuff they are made is releasing those vapors:
Toxic Vapors Emitted From New Tires | eHow.com
Sand etc is not blocking any vapors, might slow down, but really does not stop, that is case with radon too, it is gas that comes from ground, not all areas here are radon areas, but at every area building must meet radon specifications, which can be more or less demanding depending from the area.

Usually this is done so that underside of a house is ventilated to outside and below insulation of floor there is vapor sealing.

We have cellars here that use same principle as earthships, earth keeping them from freezing, like caves etc, temperature is nicely below +5C whole year, quite damp places, that require gravity based ventilation to control that dampness.
http://www.villipohjola.fi/sivustot/...maakellari.jpg

Then there is law about indoor air, air needs to be replaced 12 times in a day, yes, that is madness, but that is what new buildings must comply with, that is difficult to achieve without ventilation by electric fans, that run constantly.

Our wind average is below 4m/s here, so wind power is not very plausible , sun is not shining at winter, so no electricity from sun either, which sucks.

Then there is challenge of rain water, rain water is lacking minerals so it is considered to be not so good for drinking, 2nd problem is with bird poo and I guess that is related with salmonella etc, but water collected from roof of house should not be drank as it might contain that, it is however ok to use in garden etc where I use it.

Wastewater is regulated also, none of that is allowed to let into nature, there is regulations how efficiently that should be processed until it can be released and that is probably cleaner than many places have their drinking water. I don't know what is english term for most common system, but it is field where there are different kind of gravel etc and is based on bacteria and filtering so it cleans water in multiple stage process. There are also machines for the job, but those are expensive to use and not very popular.

There is very little freedom left in building, that sucks too.

But I consider those regulations bit artificial impossibles, but perhaps good to know that here all housing is rather green compared to many other places, I know that in central europe it is not rare to release waste water directly to river, here you would get fines from such.

As during summertime we can get below 500 hours of sunshine (whole summer and at mid summer sun is set only for hour or two), that means also that because of cloudy rainy weathers there is limit how much sunshine you can actually store, 150kWh/square meter is maximum during June and July, that is in a month and it is less with other months, total around 5-6 months depending bit from location is what you can get usable solar power maybe something below 500kWh in total per square meter and it can be lot less when there is cloudy summer like what we have now, today max temp +13C, no sun again.

So there is limit how much earthmass you can heat with sun, it might be less than what you would need to get over that long winter time when you need heating, considerably longer.

This sawdust insulated house of mine is however rather good in there that sun is heating this rather well, which cuts months from heating bill, also at autumn that large concrete base heats month or two so I don't need heating until october/november. Even it is now very cold for summer, this well designed system seem to keep indoor temps at tolerable level without heating.

Also extra insulation I put to upstairs bedroom seem to work well enough, I keep around +10C at downstairs as I don't use that much and that keeps upstairs heated too for most of winter.

There are trees so that it will not be awful hot when sun happens to be visible but there is not so much shade that it would cause problem with sun heating the house at spring as leafs are not on those trees.

This house does not meet modern regulations but as this is old enough it does not need to.

Our lapland is special case then, from November to March there is no sun at all, it just does not rise, huge amount of snow and very very cold, even during the summer it is not very warm, even sun does not set at all, just goes quite low and it is very cloudy naturally, to build zero energy house there would be silly, midday is not much different from midnight, so lights are constantly needed, man was never meant to be in these conditions.

edit: This is what I'm curious about, put such containers under ground and use vacuum pipe solar collectors to store heat in them, still cost would be quite a bit, but maybe possible to get such price that it is possible to invest to enough large to collect energy for winter, one could up solar collector capacity with poper storage so that even at poor summer there would be plenty of heat collected, also no need to build new house or anything of such drastic
http://www.ecogeek.org/power-storage...r-renewable-en

Kind of similar idea to store heat into ground, but for me this technology looks more feasible even at very extreme conditions.

Xist 07-01-2012 07:38 PM

I like the idea of an earthship and I would be interested in seeing one here in the Phoenix area, but I would like a concise explanation of the systems. I found that website to be difficult to read.

TheMarkofPolo 07-02-2012 12:47 AM

Oh yes, they address the potential problems with using recycled tires as building materials...

It's difficult detailing the systems of an earthship concisely because the designs have changed (improved) over the last 30 years, and because earthship design varies from region to region, climate to climate, and budget to budget.

In general they focus FIRST on the owner's desire to conserve. Water, electricity, natural gas, etc. must be used minimally or these systems would require more contingency plans. For example, water is supplied by snowmelt and rainwater falling upon the Earthship roof. The water is filtered for sinks/showers and stored in a cistern. Water can be purified further for drinking. The greywater from the sinks/showers goes through the interior plant cells and into the toilets. The blackwater goes to a septic system outside. The cistern is designed to hold enough water at all times, given conservative use. (You run out of water...you've got to truck it in from Taos.)

Heating/cooling. The thermal attributes of the building materials used creates a more stable temperature regime in the home. Less heating/cooling needed in the first place. The natural circulation system (vent tubes bring in cool air through soil berm and tire wall, warm air escapes through ceiling-mounted vents) brings in cooler air and reduces the need for cooling. During the winter, the lower angle of the sun brings more light directly into the earthship, helping heat the house instantly while allowing heat to be stored in the thick floor and walls. The heat is reradiated throughout the night. There is less need for heat. Additional heat CAN be provided by natural gas/propane heating, but the system doesn't solely rely on it. (The propane tank is used for the oven/stove and cooking in the home I stayed in.) Of course, the natural gas can also be used to assist in generating hot water when the solar hot water heaters aren't enough. No 30 minute showers!

Electricity. Without the heating/cooling load showing up on the utility bill, and with natural lighting negating unnecessary light use, electricity will primarily be needed for the refrigerator, nighttime lighting, TV, laptop, some kitchen appliances. At that, the fridge is DC and energy efficient, the lights are CFLs, the TV is LED, and all other appliances used should be efficient. With a small electrical load, fewer solar panels and mini wind turbines are needed. If you MUST have a microwave, plasma screen, 100 watt light bulbs on during the day when your not in the room, you'll have to pay for it with a larger solar array or by being tethered to the grid.

Xist, I doubt that cleared it up. You might search for some short videos on earthship design or look up the documentary Garbage Warriors.

NachtRitter 07-02-2012 01:09 AM

Thanks for posting your experience... very interesting!!

Xist 07-02-2012 01:55 AM

Well, I appreciate you sharing your experience with us. I guess that I will look for something specific to Phoenix.

Thanks again!

jtbo 07-03-2012 12:40 AM

That is good to know that tires do not pose a problem, that is why things need to be posted up, to find what one by himself can't find, let that be idea or info :)

We here have possibility to buy WC units that use natural process to make waste to dirt, ahem, I'm bit of loss of words here, but black stuff you put flower pots, earth, dirt, no electricity needed, it is all natural process, one could get away without needed of septic tank completely. Here is link to english pages of one local manufacturer for more information, it should not be difficult to make one by yourself too (mostly models for summer house are those without need of electricity) BIOLAN - DRY TOILETS

Grey water infiltration field is then only required by the law, but if one lives near water, then those are not allowed to be filtered by field and you need non leaking container of sufficient size.

Idea is to get rid of the water from toilet mostly, with no need for any tank to be emptied costs would be nearly the same as with everything going to septic tank, only thing is that there is no need to pay annual fees, one would need to pay all that in advance. Infiltration field needs renewing every now and then and that makes some costs + some labour is needed to empty non smelling, hmm, I think it was soil(?) from composting wc unit.

After 2014 you really can't have septic tank system here as it is considered leaking to ground, only container without possibility to leak outside or infiltration field or electric/chemical purifier system and infiltration field, any system not using electricity is best.

I think that earthship can be made to work in here too, but it would require some means to have electricity stored for dark months as there is no any sensible way to produce it unless one lives near stream.

Computer is one that uses most electricity, well almost par with cooking here, that is if you exclude heating out. If I would have income other than working from home with computer, then I guess I could store all needed electricity so that even very small wind turbine (works from with very low winds) might be enough, but as I need computer and as with developing tasks it needs to be rather powerful, I'm doomed when living here.

To be 20 years younger and I would book flight to some other place where one actually could produce electricity with PV panels all year :D
Oh, that might make well possible to live without working at all too, to be able grow food all year, now that would certainly be something awesome :P

NachtRitter 07-03-2012 02:25 PM

jtbo -

Someone once said something to the effect of "If you think you can or if you think you can't, you are right."

I am sure if you really wanted to move somewhere with more sun and with warmer weather, you would be able to do it.

And there are other ways to generate electricity efficiently besides sunshine. As you mentioned, there is wind. Of course that is not always available. Another option that seems as if it could serve a dual purpose is biogas / syngas generation. This approach burns organic material (wood, for instance) under controlled conditions, with the byproduct being a flammable gas (syngas). The heat from the burning could be used to warm the home, and the syngas can be used to fuel an ICE or gas turbine generator.

One summer I went to visit my cousin living in Sweden near 65* latitude and I understand what you mean about the summer sun... it seems like the sun is a heavy ball that can't make it up into the sky... it climbs so slowly in the mornings and then drops slowly in the afternoon but never goes all the way down. To me, it seemed like it was always either time to have breakfast or time to have dinner... never time to sleep or time to do work. :)

Even so, I think there are options...

jtbo 07-03-2012 05:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NachtRitter (Post 315045)
jtbo -

Someone once said something to the effect of "If you think you can or if you think you can't, you are right."

I am sure if you really wanted to move somewhere with more sun and with warmer weather, you would be able to do it.

And there are other ways to generate electricity efficiently besides sunshine. As you mentioned, there is wind. Of course that is not always available. Another option that seems as if it could serve a dual purpose is biogas / syngas generation. This approach burns organic material (wood, for instance) under controlled conditions, with the byproduct being a flammable gas (syngas). The heat from the burning could be used to warm the home, and the syngas can be used to fuel an ICE or gas turbine generator.

One summer I went to visit my cousin living in Sweden near 65* latitude and I understand what you mean about the summer sun... it seems like the sun is a heavy ball that can't make it up into the sky... it climbs so slowly in the mornings and then drops slowly in the afternoon but never goes all the way down. To me, it seemed like it was always either time to have breakfast or time to have dinner... never time to sleep or time to do work. :)

Even so, I think there are options...

I agree that there are always options, here wood is most likely to be best option. During WW2 here people did not have gasoline, not much cars either, that few were took to military use during the war of course. Then even military had shortage of fuel, so they started to build devices to cars which burned wood and produced gas to run the car, which I believe is what you mentioned as getting biogas from wood with controlled burn. Direct translation is wood gas, wiki has this to say about that:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wood_gas

Moving to warmer country just would require some financial level which is impossible to gain for me any more because of health, but what I can do is to minimize need to use money and maintain somewhat decent level of living despite very small amount of work that I'm able to do.

Indeed, our bright day must be tad dim for other places, I shoot photos as a hobby and even at bright summer day I can't find need to go to ISO200 if using 300mm setting of lens, also I have not found enough bright day to use my 1500mm lens yet, there is light, some places even lot of it, but it is perhaps not nearly as bright as at some other places of earth.

At October sun can't get above trees any longer on my yard, mostly of course because trees are very tall around the yard, but it is huge difference to summer and change is relatively quick too.

It is not only electricity that it affects to, also how sun's energy can be stored to soil is somewhat limited, this year it was 5. month that snow melted away from my memory, it is not unheard of to get snow already at 10. month, but after 9. month sun has no longer power to charge soil with solar energy.
This then leads to very limited energy capacity that could be stored with soil in earthship to be used to keep place warm, even there is sun energy available at end of 3. month it takes usually month or even bit more to get all snow melted and after that it takes weeks to soil to dry until it starts to warm up again properly.

We have also now new regulations of fireplace efficiency, I think it should be over 85% with new fireplaces used for heating. Don't know if wood gas would be better total efficiency than such fireplaces. For me something around 2-3 cubic meters of wood would be plenty for year's heating if I would have such fireplace, maybe some day.

What I think is that with older house with proper setup one could maintain such low level of consumption that demolishing old house and building earth ship might not be much more ecological.
Of course when building new anyway, then earthship or other building using similar general ideas might be good.

Same is often with cars, swapping engine and drivetrain might provide more ecological solution than getting new car, when one accounts whole chain from digging up the minerals and all those effects to nature.

NachtRitter 07-03-2012 11:18 PM

Yes, you are right about the wood gas; that is what I was talking about; further information here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gasifier. I don't know how your lawmakers would rate the efficiency of such a device since it generates heat for you while also creating fuel for you which you can then use to generate more heat or electricity.

I think it would be a mistake to think that without the sun, the thermal mass would have no benefit. If it is cold outside, you will need to heat your home. The insulation that you have in your home right now is intended to prevent (as best as possible) the heat from 'leaking out' of your home. Once the heater is turned off, the existing heat will slowly leak out of the home, which is a complete loss. The idea of thermal mass is to store heat. So if you are heating your home, you are also heating the thermal mass. Once the heater is turned off, the thermal mass releases the heat back into the home, so all that energy used to heat the home is not completely lost. In this example, no sun comes into the picture, but the function is the same.

With the Earthship, the design is intended to take any advantage of the sun that is possible. The thermal mass works no matter what, but if you can face all windows toward the sun so that you can take advantage of what little warmth it has to offer in the summer months, then you are ahead by that small fraction.

Of course, a thin earth wall will not help you as much as a thick earth wall... especially in a climate like yours where you have snow on the ground for so many months... but 2 or 3 meters of earth would keep you well insulated from that. With the Earthship design, the window side is multiple layers... outside windows and doors with multi pane glass, an air space, and then inside windows and doors with multi pane glass... so the insulating ability of the window side is significantly better than most standard houses which have only one multi-pane window between the outside temperature and the inside.

My point here is that I believe based on the Earthship design, it is a significant improvement in efficiency even in your climate, even without strong sun available nearly every day, compared to the standard construction approaches available in most areas.

I do understand what you mean about deciding to adjust the house for better efficiency or demolishing it and rebuilding. It can really be a difficult decision, especially if you also have to work to get income and if you have no other place to live. In my case, I think my house needs to be demolished because the amount of effort to improve the efficiency would be much greater than simply rebuilding (I would probably reuse many of the materials in the new home). But I would need to find a place to live during the build so that I can continue to work since the build will probably take ~2 years.

jtbo 07-04-2012 04:25 AM

I have heat element windows, 3 glasses, two innermost are sealed and have argon gas between them, which makes them quite superior compared to windows that have only air between them.

Windows are typically around 10-20% from heat loss, but if there are large window surfaces that will be easily higher number, at old days people put small windows to houses as it was common to have only 2 glasses, now I have heat element windows that are small in size as those old windows, which makes heat loss from windows relatively small.


Now there are many better materials than sand for insulation, rockwool is one of the best, but at old ages peat has been used and straw is rather good too.

2 meters is not quite enough of sand, sand ground is frozen to 1.5 meters deep during winter and that is with nearly infinite land mass, at southern part of country much less of course, but to get it insulate, not loose heat one would need to have it enough thick that walls are not needed to heat by interior air.

Rockwool is just something that probably can't be used well in earthship kind of design, humidity issues can be problematic.

I use 100mm at kitchen door which leads to warehouse that is not insulated. there is thick frost between door and insulation, humidity from inside air freezes to surface of door, there is +10C in kitchen during winter time, between door and insulation it can be as cold as -20C during coldest days and that is just 100mm insulation, putting 200mm to walls and 400mm to top (50% heat loss is from top) would almost remove need to heat housing.

Here many builds today passive heating houses, those are heated by waste heat from electronics, cooking and humans, very little if any heating is required, kind of similar to earthship, but still bit different, those seem to work rather well here:
Passive house - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

There is also link at beginning of that article to passive solar building design and in references earthship is also mentioned, so there are similarities, but I think that modern methods excel at situations where solar energy is limited as you can get away without any solar heat at all if needed. Ideas itself are very workable, but for me using sand as insulation/heating battery is bit problematic at extreme conditions.

At some point wooden outer layer needs to be replaced in my house at that time it will be easy to add enough insulation to outer walls to make house to be passive heated model as even now I'm reaching low energy model levels, but it will take some time, until then I'm rather happy to have 1/4 of total energy consumption compared to many newer houses.
I consume less than half of water compared to typical value, also I produce hardly any waste as I choose what I buy so that I don't need to put anything to waste bin and so on, not really eco minded, but just using common sense instead of running after desires.

syncro_user 07-04-2012 02:17 PM

Jtbo, sounds like you know quite a lot about building standards in Finland. I am currently in the process of looking for my own place, either as a old building in need of work or as a tontti to develop in a low-cost, low-energy way. Do you have any useful links to places with some relevant information?

jtbo 07-04-2012 05:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by syncro_user (Post 315205)
Jtbo, sounds like you know quite a lot about building standards in Finland. I am currently in the process of looking for my own place, either as a old building in need of work or as a tontti to develop in a low-cost, low-energy way. Do you have any useful links to places with some relevant information?

I know quite little, just some annoyances that I have come around which limit freedom :p

Anyway, first place to check is FINLEX ® - Ajantasainen lainsäädäntö: 5.2.1999/132

Second would be Suomen rakentamismryskokoelma - ymparisto.fi

Second one in english for those interested (sadly most interesting parts are not translated):
The National Building Code of Finland - ymparisto.fi

I did also search a bit about eartship at finland and found that Motiva has been asked is it possible to build such in finland, even in Norway there has been one build around 2009 (why no mention on website? What might been different in that one would be interesting), Motiva's statement was that it should be studied before it could be said if such could be built here or not, which means someone should be a pioneer and pay from testing, fight the bureaucrats to be able to open that path for others. There are several requirements which do require enough creditable source to say that this is ok until such can be allowed, one has to pay to engineering office and there might be some testing needed to be done at VTT laboratories or similar to get permission.

My pet hates in this place, anything that is innovative or just different must go trough heavy and expensive process to be approved in name of safety or whatever to be allowed to be built, you can't do no longer anything small business, you need to make living and lot of profit with what ever you are doing, everywhere you need really good funding to be able to push your new or different trough that barrier.

So we are ending up with few big standard ways.

For example gravity based ventilation, you can get it to new house too, but it requires few years worth of paperwork and will cost probably more than machine operated ventilation + all the electricity it uses in a lifetime to get such approved, well that is again from my memory, don't ever trust my memory about these things, my memory has been shot quite many years and I may remember something 100% in my mind but later find out remembering it completely opposite.

Easiest way to get around things is to get old house from area not part of any city limits, then it is much more free to build and probably it can take more than lifetime that anyone will check what one has done, illegal but from my understanding not very much punishable.

shovel 08-08-2012 02:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xist (Post 314738)
I like the idea of an earthship and I would be interested in seeing one here in the Phoenix area, but I would like a concise explanation of the systems. I found that website to be difficult to read.

There are quite a lot of these homes up in the NorthEast corner of AZ, I've painted a couple a dozen years ago (as barter for a couple burning man tickets) - they're cool, but you'll never see one in town because they cannot be made to meet city building code.

I understand the limitations on innovation posed by building code, but it really does keep us safe from the hazards which come from letting poorly educated or inconsiderate individuals just build whatever they want. None of us wants our house burned down or our lives threatened by a death trap our neighbors built.

Xist 08-09-2012 07:23 AM

Personally, I do not want to live in a death trap.

I explained the idea of an earthship to my girlfriend. I thought that she would love the idea because she is a crazy hippie and I told her that it did not need air conditioning. She said that she would never visit me because she needed air conditioning.

Did I describe it poorly or does she just not speak Xist?

shovel 08-14-2012 01:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xist (Post 320801)
Personally, I do not want to live in a death trap.

I explained the idea of an earthship to my girlfriend. I thought that she would love the idea because she is a crazy hippie and I told her that it did not need air conditioning. She said that she would never visit me because she needed air conditioning.

Did I describe it poorly or does she just not speak Xist?

I don't think they are necessarily death traps, only that the limitations imposed by standardized building code - while they chill innovation - also protect us from those who would build a four story house out of Aquafina bottles and toilet tissue only to have it catastrophically collapse at the cost of property or human lives. Less dramatic but of no less importance are effects like ventilation to limit exposure to combustion byproducts when heating or cooking, exit opportunities and rescue personnel safety in the event of fire, and other such considerations that a professional architect would employ as a matter of routine but may not even be considered by an amateur builder high on self-confidence and low on experience.

I trust most peoples' sensibilities in building a nest, and I'm certain most currently occupied earthships are as safe as they need to be for the occupants who build them - after all, we exist today after countless generations before us built their own nests and succeeded to thrive.

Air conditioning is a funny thing, last Wednesday during midday, Phoenecians pumped 13,800,000,000 watts of electrical energy into town - much of it in the pursuit of cooler air. But an air conditioner doesn't create cold, it just moves energy from inside the room to outside the room - the net result is almost fourteen billion watts of energy distributed around sixteen thousand square miles, or about 575 space heaters per square mile worth of heat added to an already hot desert. That doesn't take into account the 6 million gallons of gasoline we burned - contributing the equivalent of another 61 space heaters per square mile worth of thermal energy to the city - nor the black pavement absorbing solar radiation which would naturally be reflected by lighter colored rocks and plants - so the desert is simply less hot outside of town.

Phoenix was settled without a/c, and it was hot - but not as hot as today's local warming and houses built for heat pump efficiency rather than ecologic efficiency.


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