Steam Engine for MPG?
 

One of my many interests has always been steam power. When I was little, I loved to see old steam locomotives operate, and more recently I have read a lot about the use of steam engines in cars. In fact, there is currently an automotive steam engine ready for market, from the Cyclone Power company.

A bit of history.....In 1900, there was equal competition between steam cars, gasoline and electric cars. There were a lot of technical advances made, and the most advanced car (the Doble Model E) could start from cold in 30 seconds, had a top speed of 90mph, and at 70mph there was no vibration, since the engine turned at 900rpm. That was accomplished in 1924.

There are still a lot of people who would like to see the steam car back on the road (myself included). Cars physically have not changed much, retrofitting a steam engine in an existing car is a very attractive option. Fitting it all in a small light package is the issue.

Enter Cyclone Power. They claim to have created a self contained steam engine and boiler packaged in roughhly the same space as a standard transaxle ICE. They are mainly going to launch a 100HP automotive engine, aimed at the performance market, the Mark V.

I am more interested in the smaller, 20HP model, the Mark II. This one is targeted at generators/steady speed operation. But if it could be made to fit a small car, the benefits would be numerous:

simpler than ICE (no transmission, clutch, radiator, alternator, etc)
lower horsepower = better MPG
better low end torque
runs on any liquid fuel
extremely low emissions

I will be emailing the company and try to get their take on this idea.

Another technology I wish I could buy with ease. It seems like a 20hp one would be rather small, but on second thought; a hybrid, running the steam with electric for acceleration could do some amazing things...

You have to keep in mind that all the torque on a steam engine is available at 0 rpms. Also the engine does not idle, it just stops with the car.

That's the same as an electric motor, which makes a steam-electric hybrid appear somewhat redundant.

However, the same company is offering a Waste Heat Engine (WHE) which purports to reuse the spent steam to generate electricity. If used alongside the main engine to power an electric drive motor, this would effectively add to the overall efficiency, already claimed around 35%.
But the WHE may not generate enough electricity to make it worthwhile.

As I understand it, torque = acceleration and horsepower = speed.

You would have a peppy little car with a lower top speed than most.
Perfect for ecomodders like me.

Depends on what you mean by idle, I think. The driveshaft wouldn't be turning, but it'd still be burning fuel in order to keep the steam pressure up, no?

With a modern boiler and well insulated everything, it wouldn't need to use much fuel to keep the pressure up. So not none for long stops, but close to it.

Even Stanley Steamers from the 1920s in cold New England were able to keep up steam all night simply by running the pilot light, at about 600-900 btus/hr. That's roughly 150 to 225 hours on a gallon of kerosene. I'd guess the high tech boilers now would use much less than that.

OK, I just heard from the company, Cyclone Power. Sort of a form letter, I guess.

I have read through the attachments he sent, and I will post some of the relevant data if I can find anything useful.

This means that you first have to heat it for 10 minutes before extracting any useful energy? This is good for vehicles that are almost always running, but not for the typical morning then afternoon 30 minute commute. The good side is that once it's fired up you don't need fuel for the last 10 minutes of your ride.

Yeah thats a pretty vague statement using time instead of amount of energy capacity like a battery would use. I'd highly doubt it takes 10 minutes to warm up.

Cyclone Power Technologies - Technical FAQ

http://cyclonepower.com/press/10-27-09.pdf

Heres the attachments I recieved with that email:

Mark II Specifications.pdf

Mark II PV Diagram.pdf

Mark II Efficiency Calculations.pdf

Can this thing do engine braking?

It should be able to a little, but with out the option of downshifting it's very different.

There could be some way to restrict the steam flow to do braking. Heck this steam engine might be able to reverse direction.

That boiler area is under 60 sq. ft, which usually means 5 or 6 HP.

@miket, most steam engines are able to run forwards and reverse. Therefore, they have the full force of the engine available as engine braking. Of more interest is the coasting drag the engine would have on the engine. No neutral on these - no gearing at all.

@Bicycle Bob, Cyclone's engines run at supercritical steam pressure, meaning enough heat and pressure that the steam is as dense as water. Temps this high allow a much higher output from a compact boiler. It also allows much higher rates of energy transfer for condensing the steam since the temps are so high, allowing a compact condenser.

Well if you close the intake and then the exhaust valves on the steam pistons they could become air springs like they do on certain V8 gas engines. for coasting.

The operating principle is known as 'countersteam braking'

Countersteam brake - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Sometimes counterpressure braking is used, which is based on air pressure instead of steam.

Counter-pressure brake - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Cyclone land speed racer

Cleaning oil in the gulf

I've been trying to get my hands on a Cyclone WHE.

I'd like to connect it to the front of my diesel's crankshaft by a clutch so it can start the vehicle (no batteries needed at all since the Cyclone runs off an APU or engine waste heat), give the diesel engine torque so the diesel can operate where it wants, and run a hydraulic pump for powering a second hydraulic pump sandwiched where the clutch is like this from Lightning Hybrids. I'll insulate the engine so the only way heat can get out is through going through the diesel or the steam engine this will also help for warming up the diesel since it'll never get the chance to cool down. When sitting in traffic I can shut the diesel off and just creep along with the hydraulic from the accumulator or fire up the steam for A/C, hydraulic, and electrical power.

Instead of engine braking I'd store the energy in the hydraulic accumulator and then use it later.

Speaking of steam I just installed a Snow Performance water methanol injection system on my old IDI which increased MPG 2-3.

I'm at 20 mpg now and getting closer to the goal of Perpetual Motion.

Check this out Tesla's Self Acting Engine and implosion engines.

200 MPG Car

Niama-Reisser

I have continued to email the Cyclone folks, and I have gotten several tidbits, although some are relative to the Mark V engine:


~The Mark V has 850ft-lbs of torque at near 0 RPMs

Incredible as that sounds, remember that these engines are designed not to need a transmission. A 114 HP Volvo engine producing 136 ft-lbs will multiply that torque 13 times at the wheel in first gear, for a max of 1,809 ft-lbs (not that you need it), proceeding to the overdrive ratio 2.61, for 355 ft-lbs at the wheel. So the Mark V likely needs a final drive ratio of 1.5:1 or so.

I can't wait to hear the torque numbers on the Mark II.


~Mark V burner has a firing rate of 7 gallons per hour

This is an incredible amount of fuel, but remember that's top capacity. Meaning with a mediocre fuel economy of 20MPG, this burner can keep you supplied with steam up to 140 MPH with 100% duty cycle. When you add the reserve capacity of the boiler, there's room for even faster speeds, in short bursts. Also means that normally, duty cycle would be 25 – 50%.

Not so useful to us perhaps, but food for thought.


~The expected cost is “similar to a gasoline engine of the same horsepower”.

What does that mean? Who can say.
A gasoline 20hp engine costs anywhere from $1000 to $1500+ off the shelf.


~They have temporarily ceased work on the Mark II in favor of better funded projects.

Well, I just wish them some success, and hope they get their business firmly established.



Waiting is so hard..... <sigh>

Considering that they performed the tests for Raytheon, don't get your hopes up. I hope this is made available though.

In interim, are there any other small and efficient generators to use?

OK, to any of you who want to see this engine happen, here's your chance.

Now we can vote for Cyclone Power Technologies as they have entered their WHE waste heat recovery engine in the GE Ecomagination Challenge. To vote, please go to Cyclone Power Technologies - Cyclone Engine and click on top right where it says ecomagination. Or direct link here: Heat = Energy: Recover Waste Heat : View Idea

Every vote counts. All its costing you is a few mouse clicks, and at stake is $200 million.

We have until Sept 30th....Please also ask friends and family to vote. Thank you.

Hopefully the votes will get him into the top 10