Suggestions for good beater with heater / eco car...
 

Cliff's notes:
I am looking for suggestions on best vehicle to target for a new daily driver to cut fuel economy, ecomod, etc.

Relevant info:
--Performance enthusiast that happens to want to be fuel efficient as well.
--Family man with 4 kids. Car does not need to carry the entire family, but ability to carry kids is a plus.
--Prefer manual trans (see enthusiast) but could make do with auto.
--Minimal budget, (under 1K) but I am a true wrench, so I can find them broken, fix and modify. Prius, Insight, etc are too much.

Looking for opinions...

Daily driver is 97 Ram 1/2 2wd 5 speed. I bought a SGII through EM. With a reliable meter telling me, I am know downtrodden with the MPG from this truck. (15) Doing quick math, I spend roughly $1,800 a year in fuel with this truck on daily driver / primary mode of transportation duty.

I am considering a "beater with a heater" car as a means to use less fuel, and reduce fuel bill.

I admit I lean more towards a performance enthusiast, then ecomodder, but I do drive economically, but the SG pretty much tells the story.

I figure a car that doubles the existing MPG to 30 would cut fuel cost in 1/2 to roughly 1000.00 a year in fuel costs (will need the truck to be a truck from time to time). A car that I could ecomod to, say 45 MPG, would be even better, but I am struggling with the math at the moment (600 a year?).

I flip cars on the side, so finding the right type of car that I can fix and modify is relatively easy. I frequently find 500.00 beaters with heaters that would be an ok start but need brakes, struts, etc. I would like you input on the best starter platform, so I can work on tripling my existing MPG.

Is there a particular platform (IE 92-95 Toyota Corolla) that will serve me to get to and from work, with much better MPG, that will carry kids, and not drive me insane with boredom?

Tons of them are beginning to be available but got to choose that rare gem. Honda Accords & Civics, Toyota Camrys & Corollas are very reliable and economical to run. The older ones are heavily high mileage because of their loyal driver life spans. Find that grandmother from Pasadena, who drove a stick & changed the oil consistently & changed the timing belts, did not ride the clutch, etc....

Any VW, Audi, Skoda, Seat with tdi engine :thumbup:

That is general idea.
How about Nissan Sentra? An SE-R with 5 speed would probably be a decent start...
I dunno bout you, but the cheapest TDI in my area is WAY out of my budget.

how much is your budget?

400-700 bucks.
this allows me to put 300-600 into it to get it up to best MPG possible, (tune up, needed maintainence like brakes, etc) and some ecomodder mods.

Here is a sample of what I was thinking: Kansas City Craigslist

1991 Nissan Sentra XE 375 - $375 (Shawnee, Kansas)

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Engine runs great, car is in good shape, trans needs some work, it lost almost all power in reverse, but not all.
Everything works great other than that transmission problem.
The heat is super hot for a old car.

my only real criteria is fuel injected with a stick. Also a fan of hatchbacks and wagons for practical reasons though a sedan probably has better aero. I'm a performance enthusiast too, only I measure performance in MPG.

Going to fueleconomy (dot) gov and checking a 1991 Sentra gives the following (using the new method that is lower than the old rating method) 1.6 Auto 23 C / 33 H, 1.6 Manual 25 / 35. The 2.0 Auto 20 / 27, 2.0 Manual 21 / 29.

I personally find it easy to drive in such a fashion with a manual to easily beat the EPA numbers. :D Not so easy to make a big improvement on the automatic numbers for me. I don't like kicking an automatic into neutral to coast and then back into drive at near highway speeds.

Good luck in your search.

Toyota Corrola's handle well, and get high 30's to low 40's for mileage, but from what I've seen ones from 1996-98 tend to burn oil but are otherwise really solid and cheap to repair cars.
I'm a fan of the Honda Civics, but finding one in your price range is hit and miss.
problem with the sportier cars, like the Mazda's is they tend to be beat on and that abuse is going to cost you alot in repairs.

If maximum mileage for the minimum price is what you seek, a Geo Metro is what you need. They are available in a 4 door and so long as you get a 3 cylinder with a 5 speed it is hard NOT to get 40 mpg out of one. You could also look for a Civic VX or the very reliable B13/B14 Sentra with the GA16DE/5 speed too. The Sentras are worth 30+ MPG city if in a good state of tune and they have timing chains, not belts. Typically you can expect a Sentra that is well maintained to be capable of 300k+ miles due to the high nickel engine block, forged crank and rods and timing chain. I am not a huge fan of Civics because the engines tend to be more fragile than the ones used in Sentras, but the VX's lean burn engine makes it worth the risk as they get almost the same mileage as a 3 cylinder Metro.

For prices, Metros can be anywhere from damn near free up to $5,000-depending on where you find them. I paid $250 for my 1991 3/5 4 door and it runs and drives. My 1992 3/auto 2 door was $350 and it needs an engine. Both my cars were Craigslist finds and were listed as needing work or as parts cars. However, the important thing with a Metro is not the engine ( they are cheap to go through) but the chassis. You need to check them over VERY carefully for rot in the front where the lower control arms bolts to. I would also shy away from an automatic car unless you have a 5 speed parts car. The automatics give up 10-15 mpg to the 5 speeds and can be expensive to change over (around $300). However, if all you can find without rot is an automatic, take it and try to get a 5 speed parts car.

My suggestion would be a lean burn Honda. Of course, a VW diesel manual Rabbit or Golf would be nice too. A Ford Escort, a Toyota Corolla, Geo Prizm, Geo Metro, Ford Tempo, Chevy Cavalier (dont get a Quad 4 / Twin cam!), Honda Accord / Civic, Nissan Sentra, Ford Probe (4 cylinder), Ford Mustang (4 cylinder), Dodge Omni / LeBaron / K car, just to name a few you could find in that price range.
VT247

I'm some kind of jealous of the Pint-oh! My first new car was a 1976 Pinto Pony MPG with the Stallion trim package. Yellow with matte black trim. I drove that car hard, but the 2.3L, 4-speed combo was good for 28 mpg at ~ 80 MPH. I'd pay good money for another good hatchback 76 Pinto.

Part of me toys with the idea of waking the Dart Lite from it's slumber.

I could realistically burn through the 500.00 or so budget in getting the Dart up to speed, but to truly get into the MPG game, it would require the transmission swap to the 4 speed OD (mine was a freak, got out with 3 speed manual) and a carb swap. It would truly be a tuning effort. It would be rewarding to be able to get the MPG respectable on an old school ride and enjoy the old girl.

If your Serious about waking the Dart Lite from it's nap, contact DusterIdiot over on dot org and see if he has any parts left from his work with them. I know he had a couple Feathers. One had all the aluminum goodies, and Wildcat had a few bits as well. Some were shipped with aluminum deck lids as well as the aluminum hoods. He may also be a good source for a correct Four speed and the parts to convert.

I just sold a '94 Geo Metro 3/5spd with a low mileage '96 long block transplant I did to Luigisir over on slant six dot org for $650. I had a bit over $1K in the car over the last four years. I'd put new brakes, bearings, a windshield, heater controls, lot's of plastic interior bits, window regulators, and blower motor in it.
My father-in-law drove it back and forth over in the Klamath basin getting an average 52 mpg.
The Geo isn't a performance car in the normal sense, but it's a great commuter/parts getter! I rolled it across the scales the other day. 1700#.
I see that the prices are coming up on them again. I could probably have turned it for a profit, but he's my friend, so what the heck. :) He's coming up with two new half shafts. We'll put those in it, and he should be good to go for quite some time. Blue Book is nuts low for a driver, so you never know.
Metro's are out there for reasonable prices, but for that kind of money will tend to be a bit rough. This one looks like a poster child for full coverage keying. Nothing through the paint, but it's a 100' car. When it's wet.

CJ

The Pint-oh is all original, 29,500 miles. Grandma gave it to me before she passed away. Still has the original bias plyed tires on it! It's not perfect, but looks good when cleaned up. Has some spider web cracks in the paint and is faded (needs a good buff). Next summer, it's getting driven. Haven't put 200 miles on it since I've owned it. All of those miles are just to local car shows. Who would of ever thought that a Pinto would turn heads? Think this one is called a notchback. Has a small trunk but no back hatch to pop open.
VT247

SEE Other Thread about stuck Metro XFI. Thats a steal - But a standard metro is easy to find. Cant gaurentee the heater core but you can pick them up cheap ( Heater usualy works ) I just bought a 94 parts car for 300 - If you like to wrench you can easily bring these back to life with minimal amount of money compared obviosly to other models.

I owned a 1995 Nissan 200sx Se-r (same as the sentra) with a 5 speed, and i averaged around 32 mpg. I could get around 380 miles on a tank while at the time not caring about fuel economy. I do miss that car, and i'm kicking myself for selling it to buy a jeep. I've also owned a 1996 nissan sentra, with 216,XXX miles, and it was probably one of the nicest vehicles i've driven. They do last a long time and get pretty good gas mileage. But they do tend to hold their value, so it might be difficult in finding one for under a grand.

Several interesting cars in this search up to $2000 asking price the Saturn ??

Used Cars for Sale: Listings Near 67201 - Cars.com

Hell I dunno. I have the stuff to swap over to the 4 speed. I also have a spare /6 that I could check out, and slap the assembly in at one time. Mine is alum hood, steel deck lid, and 2.94 gears. I was lurking around .org yesterday to see how involved a TBI swap on the Dart Lite would be. I would be curious how well the Dart Lite could be hypermiled with EFI of some sort (Prefer MPI, but TBI would be ok), the 4 speed OD installed properly.
Not sure why the Sentra is calling my name? 32 MPG is 2x what I am getting now, so it sure sounds appealing.

Just remember that no matter what you do to that A body it will never have the mileage potential of a 1.6 liter/5speed Sentra. The Dart/Duster is about as aerodynamic as a brick wall and has too much weight to haul around. Plus, the A-833/OD has a terrible ratio spread and was one of those stop-gap measures (like the Ford SROD) of the late 70's to try and get more mileage out of old parts rather than just designing new ones.

If anything I would consider a Borg Warner T-5 behind the /6, but I don't know if you can find a bellhousing ( try Keisler engineering). If you do, consider the T-5 from behind either a 4 cylinder Mustang or a 4.3 V6 S-10. (GM and Ford used different bolt patterns on their T-5's). It will have a deeper 1st gear to get the leaning tower of power moving but should still have a 25-30% overdrive ratio. The GM 60 degree V6 T-5 is set up the same way but uses a unique input shaft length that likely will not be covered in the conversion bellhousing.

As for cheap EFI, it's gonna be hard to do on the /6. You will have to fabricate an intake manifold adapter for the throttle body off of another vehicle. Supposedly the GM TBI is not that complicated, but you will run right smack up against the lack of a ignition module signal that the system needs to determine when to fire the injector. Alternately, you could run it off of a Megasquirt (or the Spectre variant of it) which does not need to touch the ignition. The early (89-91) 3 cylinder Metro also does not read the ignition and uses a standard distributor, but I do not know how you would go about calibrating the ECU for an engine 4x larger. It may just work by using a bigger injector ( I would try the TBI off of a GM 4.3 V6) but it may not.

I'll also say that you should get something extremely efficient NOW or as soon as you can find it. Gas prices will soon spike again and some believe they will hit $5 a gallon this time. By the time everyone wakes up to this fact it will be too late and you won't be able to touch a good 90's economy car for less than $5,000. All the SUV owners will suddenly develop what I like to call "Metro-envy" and buy up these old gems in a panic like they did last time. The only thing is that this time the prices will NOT come back down as this time it is not a speculative bubble. Instead, it is being driven by a dollar weakened by the irresponsible quantitative easing strategy which has seen the US Treasury DOUBLE the number of US dollars in circulation since 2009. This will seriously undermine the currency and is one of the main reasons why food and commodity prices are already spiking. Get one now if you can. It will act as a hedge to protect you from what is to come.

True, the Dart will never equal a newer car in technology, aerodynamics, and weight. However, part of the appeal of the Dart, is such: I already own it, and any money I put into it will be increasing the value of a vintage car.
I would love a 5 speed, and I know the ratios on the 4 speed OD are not optimal, but in the grand scheme of being eco minded, is to use what you have and not waste. In this case, I have the 4 speed OD already, and a spare /6, so I could mate the 2, and drop them in over a weekend. Anything Keisler is good stuff but, but out of my price range. I have 375.00 into the OD trans, shifter, linkage, AND spare /6 with another 4 speed OD (long shaft, B or E Body). I probably couldn't buy a bellhousing from Keisler for that?
You know your stuff, there isn't any dirty cheap options here. I am researching on the slant six site on a TBI swap, there are enough TBI 4.3 running around. I am researching, but it may be a carb for a while.

This is scary.

For the times when I can't ride my motorcycle, i recently bought a 99' Saturn SL1 5spd with a 1.9L SOHC 4cyl engine. Got it for $700, needed very minor things like a shift bushing and what not. The best tank I had so far was 48mpg, shortly after i bought the car in october. The worst tank I had so far was 38mpg, and that's in freezing temps with winter gas. I'd imagine in the summer I'll be able to break 50mpg, if i need to drive a car to get where I'm going. The car has a .32 drag coefficient and weighs 2400lbs. With some aeromods i'd probably see some significant gains.

Must be the area, I can't seem to find a decent priced Saturn that doesn't have a blown motor, in this area. I am all for wrenching, but people want with a blown motor, what it should be worth running, a least around here?

it is easy to confuse a working saturn with a saturn with a blown motor :)

TBI won't help economy on the Dart due to the poor distribution of the OEM manifold. The only tested Multi-port systems that have had any substantial testing and use are the GM 3.8 batch systems. Sequential is possible with a crank trigger, but you join the ranks of the experimentals. Any single stage FI system won't improve economy. Applicable single stage EFI systems hold mixture control in a narrower range than a well tuned lean burn carb can do. Done right, a correctly set up carburetor can reliably deliver lean burn in the 17:1 range, which is about the limit of what the metalurgy and combustion chamber technology of the slant parts can tolerate. Fortunately, pistons can be replaced with more advanced designs and materials now. The problem being cost. There is very little that can be done about the head without major expenditures.

The Dart Lite had a very agressive timing curve, and gobs of EGR to avoid detonation. Keep the compression at stock, or lower to avoid problems if your running the OEM system.

Do you still have the original carburetor? They were not the same as the conventional Holley 1945 that was being used on cars during that era. Avoid the later lean burn systems. They were problematic.
The calibration was leaner on the Dart Lite and Feather Carb, and there was more signal to the vacuum amplifer for the EGR. Governer was a 15R in the distributor, and they carried a crazy vacuum advance can.
The guys that are providing reputable economy reports put the 4 speed car at about 34 mpg. Not the advertised 37, though at hypermiling speeds, it might just do it. Getting the full 55° of advance would require traveling at much higher engine speeds than would be legal. :)

Most of the guys serious about EFI on the slant seem to have taken setting up mega-squirt systems on as a long term hobby. I think Sam has been at it for ten years and is still fiddling around. He runs a T-5 also, but his calibration is aimed at power, not economy.
Most of the T-5 guys built their own parts to mount the tranny up. The only parts available for mating up different transmissions to the slant are for GM automatics. No over the counter parts available I'm afraid. Talk to Sandy about the five speed if your set on going that route. The final drive ratio is still 0.70 so no advantage, though it should be lighter than the O.D.
I'd say stick with the 4spd O.D. for simplicity.

The late cam could be changed out. Effectively, all those cars used the MP244. There are some options that are a bit less lift, and a wee bit less duration. I don't think it would amount to much. Those were the early grinds, and all it would amount to is less power. We still have to get 3600# rolling, and net power was 95 hp even on the normal slant cars. The cam profile technology today is much better than it was 40 and 50 years ago.
The Erson RV10M would be a nice addition. It's profile is closer to the 244, and lift is still reasonable. The lash ramps take advantage of the Mopar lifter size, so tip up and drop out quicker.

Check with DusterIdiot. Even running a modified split plenum Hyperpak manifold with the 390 Holley, he gets up around 26 mpg with the CompCams 252S. With less cam, a more reasonable intake manifold, and a slight nudge in compression, that could be the norm.
Small cross section 4 bbl intake would be the Offy. The Clifford short ram carries too much cross section for low RPM use. Drag racing yes, economy, no.
The new Hurricane can be had in a two barrel version. A 5200 series on that should work well, though in low temperatures heat soak would take a while, so economy wouldn't be great until the plenum floor heats up.
They also cost well over $400. They can be had with injector bungs if your set on spending your time with fuel curves and timing adustments. :D

I'll be retiring my modified Offy in a couple of years. The Triple DCOE Redline setup probably won't deliver very good mileage, but I only drive the rail a quarter mile at a time. :rolleyes:

My daily driver is a 2 litre cargo van. ;)

2¢

CJ

Jake - I'm glad to see I'm not the only V8 ZJ on here!

Ceej has some good points. With the right setup, and possibly a few aero mods, I could see the Dart pulling mid 30s with no issue.

I was looking for a Saturn 5spd because the Metros are hard to find here. I lucked out and stumbled onto the Metro I have now. Saturns get great mileage and I think it would be a great choice. I also think the Metro is the best platform to work with for gas. I wish I could have done a diesel VW.